Well...there goes the life.

[pikeh]

so the last box means what div your enemy was? seems you play awesome vs. grandmasters!

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Hehe I'm shit at SC2 (and most RTS). I play with mates on a Friday night but lately we've just been messing around in any other games too. I like the Star Battles mod, but lately its just full of people grinding rank. Tedious.

 

[Nate]

I'm Dave 416 btw

 

[Nate]

added everyone

 

[mooSe_]

FH4v4 team gogo?

so the last box means what div your enemy was? seems you play awesome vs. grandmasters!

No that last box is the rank it's given you based on your SQ for that game. So on the games where it says Grandmaster it means he's been macroing as well as a GM player. The matchmaking system would never place you against a gold leaguer one game and then a GM the next ^^

I think I'm gonna try out this SQ thing; it might show me something I need to improve on.

 

[pikeh]

I know its probably too easy for you guys, but no matter how I try, I cannot do 'Zero Hour hard achievement. (4 hatcheries). I macro really well, supply/scvs/constant meds/reactor marines from 3rax. My mineral income is pretty poor so is there a point where I should be constantly producing SCV's and nothing else to? I salvage those two bunkers near base, but when I push @9-10 mins to go, the guy a shit ton of muta's that I just can't cope with! ARGH!

 

[mooSe_]

Is that one of the challenges or a mission or something? I've only really paid attention to the multiplayer so I can't help I'm afraid (I haven't even finished the campaign).

Ok I checked my last 20 games to calculate SQ. Looks like I'm doing ok except my macro tends to be worse in ZvZs which kinda makes sense since they are so micro intensive. I think all the games below master league equivalent were ZvZ. That's something to work on though I suppose.

 

[Huntingtons]

ECA what i ment was i couldnt find the sheet/program/whatever to calculate my SQ.

 

[mooSe_]

From the TL article:
SQ Calculator:http://beijers.eu/share/sq.html
Excel spreadsheets: http://www.mediafire.com/?c3gchw5a389t9sa (newest one!)
http://www.mediafire.com/?h1cd1f2kdj16p6f

My overall average was 81

 

[Levin]

I've fallen into the trap of just watching tons and tons of casts and replays and never playing myself.. I don't know I just one day got into my head that it was real scary to go into a match, and I haven't dared log in since then. I was in Gold league, two seasons ago.

 

[pikeh]

can't see losses anymore, nothing to lose! I wont be scared once ive practiced a bit more methinks

 

[Nate]

I think I'd play more games if it didn't have such impact when you win/loose

 

[mooSe_]

You gotta get over the ladder fear if you want to improve. It stops being scary after a while, although bad losses do still put me in a bad mood. If you want to play games but without fear of losing points then you should find some people to practise with in custom games. Join the chat channel "YAO Gaming"; it's a community channel created by the team I'm in that anyone can join to look for practise games. There's often 30+ people in there of various leagues so you can often find people to play against or games to observe if you don't feel like playing.

 

[ECA]

I used to feel like I had to play some custom games to warm up before laddering etc and had the same thing, just mash the find game button and deal with it

The goal is to improve, don't fixate on your rank/division/etc.

 

[Huntingtons]

rather be in a low league and practice than playing safe in plat/diamond

 

[Huntingtons]

heres a replay of TvZ (Im T) with my standard zerg build (bunker harass to helion to banshee 111). My micro is alot better than my macro in this game and i had a lot of fun perma harassing him. What makes this abit different is that i used (which i would never vs zerg) ravens to harass and protect vs hydras. I consider that to be a wise move this particular game for PDD + it forced him to build lings/hydras instead of workers (he was down to 15-16 at some point.

http://replayfu.com/r/4TnqGq

 

[pikeh]

so had 3 of my placement matches today.
First game; zergling's owned me at 11 mins before my rine'rauder drop. (was close spawn on metal so this was natural decision instead of hellions).
Second game; protoss gate rushed me .
Third game; typicle zergling ownage again, massed hellions but he used a nydus worm (lol) to get blings in my base and chuff me over royally.

So Im pretty much put off playing at the moment, they were games all against silver/bronzers. Should i just try and perfect ONE build instead of determing best for situation? The players i played against today certainly didn't scout or anything. How important is scouting at low level? I was under the impression it was important but certainly in these types of games I'll just be better off mining more and turtling... Im beginning to think I'll ditch terran and start something else. Had the game for a year now and im still shit. Maybe i should give up completely!

 

[Huntingtons]

have 1 Z V and T build for close and long distance and try and end early.
mines are as follows
Z close and long mostly the same:
Z is always scout FE and harass with bunker (if they dont FE they usually go b-ling or roaches) and get out at least 2 helions, more if its close (6-8 outside base) into banshee (if long distance) or into 2-2 marine tank medivac (close distance). 2-2 marine will decimate mutas and lings if theyre not upgraded.

P:
2-1-1 with a push around 9 mins if close position. if long distance helion harass into MMM with ghosts and vikings (depending on storm or collosi)

T:
thor rush with a 9 min push at the latest if semi close. Long distance equals tanks vikings Rines with a drop while you push.

I adapt them all as i play but thats my general train of thought when playing

 

[pikeh]

may need some practice matches against you hunt, as long as you don't berate me after winning! my openings and timings are spoy on when im playing vs ai, guess the pressure just gets me :<

 

[Huntingtons]

sure mate, im up for it

 

[mooSe_]

so had 3 of my placement matches today.
First game; zergling's owned me at 11 mins before my rine'rauder drop. (was close spawn on metal so this was natural decision instead of hellions).
Second game; protoss gate rushed me .
Third game; typicle zergling ownage again, massed hellions but he used a nydus worm (lol) to get blings in my base and chuff me over royally.

So Im pretty much put off playing at the moment, they were games all against silver/bronzers. Should i just try and perfect ONE build instead of determing best for situation? The players i played against today certainly didn't scout or anything. How important is scouting at low level? I was under the impression it was important but certainly in these types of games I'll just be better off mining more and turtling... Im beginning to think I'll ditch terran and start something else. Had the game for a year now and im still shit. Maybe i should give up completely!

Scouting is important at all levels, but it is a bit different at low levels. When I've played on a lower rated friend's account I find it quite frustrating when scouting because the things the low level players do makes no sense. When you play a high rated player, you can guess which strategy they are doing and how they are going to follow it up based on the timings of things that they do. But when you play a bronze league player he might do something that makes no sense at all like go refinery first into 2 rax marine so you can't rely on any of the usual clues to determine what he's doing. Instead you have to scout what he's actually got if you want to counter him.
At your level though I would focus mainly on getting your own stuff right before trying to work out what what your opponent is doing. I think you can end up feeling overwhelmed by the amount of different things you need to think about every game so I think to begin with it's best to find one solid build per match up and practise it until you can execute it well. Watch some pro replays and find a build that you like the look of (probably a good idea to find one that isn't ridiculously technical or demanding on your multitasking) and learn the timings and practise it. If you just make shit up every game then you'll probably end up doing bad because you don't have much idea what works and what doesn't. You can start getting creative when you understand why the standard things are standard.
Once you've played your build a bunch of times you will have found some things it works against and some it doesn't. Then you can start to learn a few key things to scout for. Does your build lose to a 4 gate? Then learn the timing a 4 gate is going to be visible (basically when he has 4gates making but before they are done so that you have time to respond) and try to scout it. There are always lots of other little things that can give away a strategy (for example when 4 gating they will normally use lots of chronoboost on their cybernetics core to get the warp gate tech to finish faster) but like I said earlier, a bronze league player will probably miss lots of these things anyway so you can never rely on them to know what he's doing. From then on whenever you scout 4 gate you can deviate your build so that it will be able to defend it: for example by building some bunkers at the front of your base and being ready to pull scvs to repair them when he attacks.
Other than that, you can greatly improve your win rate vs gimmicky cheese like nydus all ins or cannon rushes by doing a bunch of small things to make your play safer every game. By this I mean little things like always having a solid wall in at the front vs a zerg player, always scouting around your own base for hidden scouts or proxy pylons, and building supply depots in a spread out fashion around the perimeter of your main so that you have full vision (so if he tries to nydus you will see it immediately).
Don't give up I started in copper league (the league below bronze before they removed it) and now I'm mid/high master.

 

[pikeh]

great post moose, thanks

Totaly understand what you mean when you say what people do make no sense. I spend so long watching vod's, reading strats etc that I sometimes think "I've fucked his economy, hes going to surrender" for example. Then I just sit around waiting for him to surrender! I know thats a bad example, but you know what I mean.

 

[pikeh]

Just an update, I learnt a decent (with notes) BO v protoss from Team Liquid, called terran death ball or something, its semi standard. I played my mate and was doing really well, playing a lot better etc. Thing is, I have eystrain at the moment with 4 days off work (2x monitors all day for 8 hours must be taking its toll ) so I had to keep closing my eyes for 10 seconds. I lost in the end but would have won, even just a simple change like actually sticking to a plan worked so much better. I did notice however, my upspent minerals were getting high, despite fielding a decent viking/tank/marine/raven army. In these situations, is it a case of expanding or making a shit load of production facilities? Ive never been good at judging when to expand (from what I can tell, expanding whilst attacking is a good idea; but im not good enough at multitasking to do that without more practice). I didn't get supply blocked once, which is another improvement.
The thing that worries me is that the game is getting older all the time (I know is relatively young still) but the influx of new players will be getting less, and everyone will be improving all the time. Eventually, if I dont' improve to a decent level I will literally be chuffed!

 

[mooSe_]

Just an update, I learnt a decent (with notes) BO v protoss from Team Liquid, called terran death ball or something, its semi standard. I played my mate and was doing really well, playing a lot better etc. Thing is, I have eystrain at the moment with 4 days off work (2x monitors all day for 8 hours must be taking its toll ) so I had to keep closing my eyes for 10 seconds. I lost in the end but would have won, even just a simple change like actually sticking to a plan worked so much better. I did notice however, my upspent minerals were getting high, despite fielding a decent viking/tank/marine/raven army. In these situations, is it a case of expanding or making a shit load of production facilities? Ive never been good at judging when to expand (from what I can tell, expanding whilst attacking is a good idea; but im not good enough at multitasking to do that without more practice). I didn't get supply blocked once, which is another improvement.
The thing that worries me is that the game is getting older all the time (I know is relatively young still) but the influx of new players will be getting less, and everyone will be improving all the time. Eventually, if I dont' improve to a decent level I will literally be chuffed!

Nice! Just remember though that strategy advice on Team Liquid isn't necessarily good advice I can't bring myself to read through those threads usually because it's filled with lower level players with big egos making all kinds of false claims. If the BO is reasonably standard though then it should be fine.

If you have loads of unspent minerals then first try to make sure that you are constantly producing from all your production buildings. If you watch a replay of yourself you'll probably find there are times when you let your macro slip (probably during a battle) and that can make you start floating minerals really quickly. If that isn't the main problem then it could be that you don't have enough production buildings. As a general rule for terran and protoss that I have is that you should have roughly 3 or 4 production buildings per base that you are mining from. Obviously it depends on what you are producing; marines are far cheaper than tanks so if you are only making marines you can support more buildings than if you were producing lots of tanks. It's also more complicated as terran because of the addons on your buildings so don't follow this too strictly, but it's a reasonable way to tell if you have enough production. If you are on 2 bases and only producing from like 4 buildings (e.g. 2 rax, 1 factory, 1 starport) then your income will be way higher than your spending so add some more buildings. The more you practise your build the more you will realise how many of each building you can support with the economy you have, so you won't need to worry about it so much. Taking a base can be a good idea if you are floating some minerals, but make sure that you add on even more production afterwards because your income is going to get a lot higher.

Expansion timings are something that you can have vague rules for too. For example in my ZvT I will take my 3rd base once I have dealt with any early pressure, I have both my bases saturated and my lair is on the way. And then I will take my 4th base once my 3rd is saturated and my mutas are out on the map. Unless something weird happens like he all ins me or kills one of my expansions, or if it's an awkward map and not safe to take bases like that then I will do pretty much the same expansion timing every game. This means that I'm always comfortable with the amount of income I have and I know when to increase my production: I always build a macro hatchery around the time I take a 3rd base because otherwise I'll have more minerals than I can spend if I have a 3 base economy and only 3 hatcheries.

It's different as a terran because you can't really expand quite as fast as a zerg player and you have different production buildings and stuff, but I think if you want to play macro focussed games you should always be looking to take another base. So once you've taken your natural and are producing off 2 bases, start your 3rd command centre. You can just build it in your main and wait until it's safe to fly it out to your 3rd base (it will still be useful if you are contained on 2 bases because you will have extra MULEs and scans). Then once you have your 3rd base up and defended and you've increased your production again just go ahead and start a 4th command centre. Just make sure to add on a few production buildings around the time you take another base every time unless you are mining out bases that you already have (by the time you take your 4th, your main will probably be mined out so you shouldn't add on any more production buildings because your economy won't increase).

Expanding while attacking is good because it means that he can't put any pressure on you while you are taking your base. The idea is that once your attack is over (assuming you don't win the game), your new base will be secured and you will have increased production and economy so it will be a lot harder for him to attack you. However, don't take a base and then immediately attack. This is because you've just invested in something that has yet to pay off. If you make a 3rd command centre and your opponent doesn't and you attack him, then he couldve spent those extra minerals on units and have a stronger army than you. If you wait until your 3rd base has been up and running for a while then your investment pays off and those extra units he made won't matter because you'll be able to produce way more. So either attack before you get your new base up and running (this is the "attack while you expand" thing), or wait until it has been running for a little while and you have had the chance to use your extra economy. I'm not sure maybe all this stuff is obvious or maybe it was worth explaining.

I wouldn't worry so much about the game getting older since Heart of the Swarm will be coming out sometime (next year maybe?) and that will kinda reset the playing field a bit and bring in a lot of new players or return a bunch of old players. Obviously the game remains the same mechanically, so it's not going to reset everything: good players will still be good and bad players will be bad. But in terms of strategies, pretty much everything everyone is learning now could be useless in a year's time because of new units and balance changes and stuff. So I guess the best thing to do is focus on playing solid and work on your mechanics and don't worry too much about having the best builds.

This post has turned out really long lol. If only I could write essays about starcraft rather than philosophy for my degree

In other news I've been trying to play in more tournaments recently. I got to the quarter finals of the Playhem Daily today and had to play best of 3 against viOlet (this guy: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/players/2626_viOlet) who is a korean progamer and has been in GSL and stuff. Obviously I got raped 0-2 but I was quite happy with the way I played since I didn't just instantly die and I learned a lot about ZvZ. Also he was streaming so roughly 300 people saw me get owned

 

[pikeh]

Another great post, thanks moose. Basically any help you can give is great.

 

[mooSe_]

Np. If any of you don't understand why you lost a game or what you needed to do better then you can post the replay and I'll take a look if you like.

 

[pikeh]

Not been doing so badly, keeping minerals low, good worker count, good pressure etc. Just won a game easily against protoss who I kind of fear, a solid build order and not many gimmicks is good

 

[mooSe_]

Nice work!

I was talking to this dude in a kebab shop last night who apparently plays starcraft. I agreed to teach him to play better in return for some chicken.

 

[pikeh]

haha, been reading up on some barcrafts in Canterbury, might pop along with my mate!

my stupid sigs not updating and I'mn the highest in bronze I've ever been!!!

 

[fettoken]

Ahhhh i so love Dark Templars.