News War with Russia

Scouse

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The EU have made it clear that any EU company doing this are breaking the law.
Link please? I've not seen any banks saying that they're not going to process payments in this manner. And to be very clear - this all goes through a small number of very easily regulatory-enforcable banks.

Mr Regulator: "No facilitating of payments to Russia for oil in any way"
Banks: "OK - this will take us about 24 hours, tops. We'll wake everyone up that we need to ensure this work happens. I know we're late already, but it'll hit our software development for on-us soft-payments under PSD2 until it's done. Are you OK to give us a small extension?"
Mr Regulator: "Of course. Thankyou. More wine?"
Banks: "Yes please. How are the kids?"

:)

Edit: First sentence should end "...in any way that makes us have to deny that it's happening. Thank fuck your books aren't public like some dirty blockchain eh?".
 
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Scouse

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Very interesting, but still not clear.

German vice-chancellor and economy minister Robert Habeck said on Wednesday that the Russian payment mechanism was “the path that the EU marked out for us”.

“It’s the path that is compatible with sanctions, and as far as I understand the German companies that are doing it this way are in compliance with their contracts,” he said. “Most EU countries are taking this approach.”
So German Vice Chancellor says one thing and says this is the path the EU has laid out and that most EU countries are doing it - whilst only two unnamed officials say otherwise.

Until Von Der Leyen comes out and says this breaks sactions publicly then I'm unconvinced.

And regardless of denominations - we're still paying Russia a billion dollars a day.
 

Wij

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Very interesting, but still not clear.



So German Vice Chancellor says one thing and says this is the path the EU has laid out and that most EU countries are doing it - whilst only two unnamed officials say otherwise.

Until Von Der Leyen comes out and says this breaks sactions publicly then I'm unconvinced.

And regardless of denominations - we're still paying Russia a billion dollars a day.
We?
 

Scouse

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@Scouse means the UK but when he says "We" he is referring to the West. Makes his arguments stronger but still incorrect.
What Deebs say is partially correct - I am indeed referring to "the west" and include our allies because I think nationalist arguments are a bit infantile and are used in a deceitfully interchangable manner depending on what some people want to achieve.

But of course, only partially correct - because we, as in "the UK", are still paying Russia - and WE won't have phased out imports of gas, oil or diesel from Russia until the end of the year (at best) - according to the UK Business Secretary.

So you're both wrong :p
 

Wij

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Well the UK isn't paying Russia a billion dollars a day.
 

Scouse

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Go ahead and tell yourself whatever you need to make you feel warm inside m8.
 

Aoami

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What's your angle here? I just don't get it. It's like you're just out to prove people wrong no matter what side of the argument you fall on.
 

Gwadien

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What's your angle here? I just don't get it. It's like you're just out to prove people wrong no matter what side of the argument you fall on.
I agree with him.

We're scapegoating Germany as the bad guys that made theirselves reliant on Russian gas (as a country that famously lacks natural resources) but for some reason it's gone from an extremely minor global issue to the most important one ever.

I'll ask again, since it seems I was ignored; do we genuinely expect Germany to turn off the gas supply without having a few years to organise alternatives that won't ruin their economy?

As as I asked before, if stopping Russian gas is the most important thing ever why isn't the West providing a temporary alternative at similar prices?
 

MYstIC G

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I agree with him.

We're scapegoating Germany as the bad guys that made theirselves reliant on Russian gas (as a country that famously lacks natural resources) but for some reason it's gone from an extremely minor global issue to the most important one ever.

I'll ask again, since it seems I was ignored; do we genuinely expect Germany to turn off the gas supply without having a few years to organise alternatives that won't ruin their economy?

As as I asked before, if stopping Russian gas is the most important thing ever why isn't the West providing a temporary alternative at similar prices?
I don't expect any of them to act other than in their own best interests, it's unfortunate but it's real.
 

Gwadien

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I don't expect any of them to act other than in their own best interests, it's unfortunate but it's real.
Precisely and we'd act in the exact same way if we were in their position.

It just seems to me because we're living in financial bad times we're more willing to hurl shit at each other whilst getting laughed at by Putin rather than actually working together and actually causing damage to the tyrant.
 

Scouse

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What's your angle here? I just don't get it. It's like you're just out to prove people wrong no matter what side of the argument you fall on.
I don't have an angle. I've just no appetite for bullshit. We're still paying Russia cold hard cash - whichever way you define "we". The sanctions are largely meaningless. If we were serious, really serious, about giving Russia some shit we'd start closing down unnecessary industry and take a real economic hit ourselves and stop buying Russian oil and gas - instead of indirectly funding their ongoing war effort to the tune of a billion dollars a day.

But we're not doing that.

I don't expect any of them to act other than in their own best interests, it's unfortunate but it's real.
I agree with this. But I hate your "them" - because it seems to exclude "us" - and we're acting in our own best interests - and paying Russia for oil and gas.
 

DaGaffer

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I agree with him.

We're scapegoating Germany as the bad guys that made theirselves reliant on Russian gas (as a country that famously lacks natural resources) but for some reason it's gone from an extremely minor global issue to the most important one ever.

I'll ask again, since it seems I was ignored; do we genuinely expect Germany to turn off the gas supply without having a few years to organise alternatives that won't ruin their economy?

As as I asked before, if stopping Russian gas is the most important thing ever why isn't the West providing a temporary alternative at similar prices?
Sorry, wiser heads have been pointing out Germany's energy policies are dysfunctional for the last 20 years. The combination of undoubted corruption in high places and the Greens acting as a power broker has led to this mess and the (not unrelated) fucked-up military situation.

In a way this war is the best thing that's ever happened to German (and EU) energy strategy, but that doesn't mean the Germans should get anyone's sympathy, they own their own fuckups.
 

Scouse

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In a way this war is the best thing that's ever happened to German (and EU) energy strategy, but that doesn't mean the Germans should get anyone's sympathy, they own their own fuckups.
I don't disagree. However, economic codependence was a policy that is supposed to prevent war - it's the reason for the EU in the first place and has worked for us. Energy dependence has spectacularly backfired for Germany in terms of their ability to respond with severe sanctions on Russia - but as I keep pointing out we are all still dependent on Russia to some extent or another and we're all limited to some extent.

It's just a bit wanky to keep singling out ze Germans for this. It's some sort of nationalistic hubris - gone is any semblence of "we're all in this together". And Putin is probably gently fingering his frenulum at the thought of it.
 

DaGaffer

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I don't disagree. However, economic codependence was a policy that is supposed to prevent war - it's the reason for the EU in the first place and has worked for us. Energy dependence has spectacularly backfired for Germany in terms of their ability to respond with severe sanctions on Russia - but as I keep pointing out we are all still dependent on Russia to some extent or another and we're all limited to some extent.

It's just a bit wanky to keep singling out ze Germans for this. It's some sort of nationalistic hubris - gone is any semblence of "we're all in this together". And Putin is probably gently fingering his frenulum at the thought of it.
No. You're oversimplifying things. Economic co-dependence to minimise wars was indeed one of the intentions of the EEC, but it only works if you have common legal frameworks, working frameworks etc. as well; this is why the "four freedoms" were built into the EEC and why Brexiteers were always wrong with the whole "it was just supposed to be about trade" thing. You need all the other stuff to bind countries together as well, and none of that applies with Russia.

Putin's Russia has been dodgy as fuck since the start, but we collectively turned a blind eye, and so long as you didn't have to rely on Russia, that was fine; but Russia has been showing bad faith on energy supplies for years, with threats to switch off the taps etc. and the Germans said "nah, fuck that, we'll double down and build another pipeline". The Poles, who know better, have been diversifying away from Russian gas since 2002!

Everyone can take some of the blame for enabling Russia, but Germany gave them a gun to point at their own head.
 

Wij

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No. You're oversimplifying things. Economic co-dependence to minimise wars was indeed one of the intentions of the EEC, but it only works if you have common legal frameworks, working frameworks etc. as well; this is why the "four freedoms" were built into the EEC and why Brexiteers were always wrong with the whole "it was just supposed to be about trade" thing. You need all the other stuff to bind countries together as well, and none of that applies with Russia.

Putin's Russia has been dodgy as fuck since the start, but we collectively turned a blind eye, and so long as you didn't have to rely on Russia, that was fine; but Russia has been showing bad faith on energy supplies for years, with threats to switch off the taps etc. and the Germans said "nah, fuck that, we'll double down and build another pipeline". The Poles, who know better, have been diversifying away from Russian gas since 2002!

Everyone can take some of the blame for enabling Russia, but Germany gave them a gun to point at their own head.
Exactly this. Wiser heads have been pointing this out to Germany, by far the worst offender, for years. And it has led to exactly what was predicted. Putin thinking they can’t afford to sanction his gas so he can act with impunity.

German politics is rife with those who take Putins payoffs like Gerhard Schroeder. But don’t forget all the Austrian politicians who now work for Lukoil.
 

BloodOmen

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"Britain sends tanks, helicopters and 8,000 soldiers to Eastern Europe


Around 8,000 British Army troops and dozens of tanks will take part in exercises across eastern Europe to combat Russian aggression in one of the largest deployments since the Cold War.

Tens of thousands of Nato troops will join the British forces that will be deployed to countries ranging from Finland to North Macedonia this summer under plans that have been enhanced since the invasion of Ukraine.

The Joint Expeditionary Force alliance, which includes Finland and Sweden, will also be taking part.

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said the purpose behind the exercises is to demonstrate how the British Army has modernised into a 'lethal, agile and global force'.

The action had been long planned, but that it had been enhanced in response since Russia invaded its neighbour in late February."
 

Scouse

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No. You're oversimplifying things. Economic co-dependence to minimise wars was indeed one of the intentions of the EEC, but it only works if you have common legal frameworks, working frameworks etc. as well; this is why the "four freedoms" were built into the EEC and why Brexiteers were always wrong with the whole "it was just supposed to be about trade" thing. You need all the other stuff to bind countries together as well, and none of that applies with Russia.

Putin's Russia has been dodgy as fuck since the start, but we collectively turned a blind eye, and so long as you didn't have to rely on Russia, that was fine; but Russia has been showing bad faith on energy supplies for years, with threats to switch off the taps etc. and the Germans said "nah, fuck that, we'll double down and build another pipeline". The Poles, who know better, have been diversifying away from Russian gas since 2002!

Everyone can take some of the blame for enabling Russia, but Germany gave them a gun to point at their own head.
I'm in complete agreement with this. But it's clear what I'm getting at - yes, Germany's the biggest offender (that's not up for debate) - but we're all guilty. "People" might have been pointing it out - but even Blighty are locked-in to payments to Russia, who we've known who are a bunch of criminal asshats since the USSR fell (when Yeltsin stood down he begged "the west" to not let this happen - but we did).

So, I'm not joining in with the specifically-Germany-bashing (which I notice @Wij has piled into in his next post) - it's idiotic. If we have to talk nations, then we're all fucking guilty - so it's shameful when people engage in that sort of schoolyard-nation-bashing.
 

DaGaffer

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I'm in complete agreement with this. But it's clear what I'm getting at - yes, Germany's the biggest offender (that's not up for debate) - but we're all guilty. "People" might have been pointing it out - but even Blighty are locked-in to payments to Russia, who we've known who are a bunch of criminal asshats since the USSR fell (when Yeltsin stood down he begged "the west" to not let this happen - but we did).

So, I'm not joining in with the specifically-Germany-bashing (which I notice @Wij has piled into in his next post) - it's idiotic. If we have to talk nations, then we're all fucking guilty - so it's shameful when people engage in that sort of schoolyard-nation-bashing.
Germany's dysfunctional energy policy isn't just about Russia though; by closing down their nuclear plants and their coal mines at the same time, they made themselves more dependent on Russia with no plan B. That's why Germany is especially bad; the biggest economy in Europe has been fucking up its energy security and its CO2 commitments at the same time. To be fair to the UK (and God knows I have few reasons to do that these days) at least they've been trying to do some of the right things about energy and never exposed ourselves to Russia that much (about 3% I think). Sure, the UK has been an enabler of Russia in lots of other ways, but not ways that mean we can't keep the lights on.
 

Wij

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I'm in complete agreement with this. But it's clear what I'm getting at - yes, Germany's the biggest offender (that's not up for debate) - but we're all guilty. "People" might have been pointing it out - but even Blighty are locked-in to payments to Russia, who we've known who are a bunch of criminal asshats since the USSR fell (when Yeltsin stood down he begged "the west" to not let this happen - but we did).

So, I'm not joining in with the specifically-Germany-bashing (which I notice @Wij has piled into in his next post) - it's idiotic. If we have to talk nations, then we're all fucking guilty - so it's shameful when people engage in that sort of schoolyard-nation-bashing.
Most other European nations didn’t put all their eggs in the Russian basket though. Germany did, by deliberate policy, despite being warned what a bad idea it was.
 

Scouse

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I know you've got a beef about Nuclear @Wij - but we've been through that - and the figures don't support your argument. Turning off the nuclear didn't actually make a material difference - they'd still have been dependent on Russia.

And again - more dependent, or less dependent (pick your country) - is still dependent.

Edit: I guess it's whether you fingered a couple of 15 year olds, or fucked a goat.

(I was going to go full Jimmy Saville with that analogy, but have been drinking, like the sound of it and thought "that'll do") :)
 

Jupitus

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