News War with Russia

[Raven]

Appeasement just does not work. Ever.

 

[Scouse]

Indeed we know that, unfortunately no one has told Putin or Xi

I'm including our governments too m8.

 

[Scouse]

Appeasement just does not work. Ever.

It's not appeasement. We've already told Putin, before he started, that we wouldn't get militarily involved. We're still buying our gas off him. The west isn't really bothered about Ukraine.

But they've hit a nuclear reactor ffs. We cannot afford war any more. Wake up!

Pragmatically the conflict needs to end as soon as possible. Minimise loss of life and damage to infrastructure. Then sit down and work out how to prevent it ever happening again. Properly, like they said they would after WW2, before they betrayed the lives of all those who died.

There are 103 nuclear power plants in Europe. A meltdown at one can be utterly disastrous.

Russia have just shelled a reactor. There are fires at the plant and shelling is stopping fire services putting them out.

You need to ditch your pre-WW2 mindset. We all do. Like the scientists repeatedly told us we must do over half a century ago.

 

[Gumbo]

But what do we do when Putin then takes a few more countries? Because he won't sit down and work it out. Unless we just give him everything, probably right up to the German border, but by then would that even be the limit?

I'm not sure what drugs you're on?

 

[MYstIC G]

This is fatalistic bullshit. It's also dangerous idiocy.

Even if I concede your point that humans are so dumb that they cannot override their emotions with their intellect (and I disagree on that Meg - speak for yourself if you like but certainly not all humans are incapable) we can and must design different systems of government.

Einstein and the scientists of his era knew it and said it. With our technological developments post World War 2 we could no longer afford war.

You're detatched from reality Meg. Not me. I'm just repeating a truth expressed by the brightest minds some 70 years ago. So catch up.

We cannot afford to be the knuckle dragging chimps we are any more or we'll end ourselves.

Unfortunately the argument you are repeating relies upon all people changing and nothing is ever 100%

Besides the scientists of which you speak are group responsible for bringing us into a world of mutually assured destruction, so frankly they're not a bastion of sensible and rational decision making by humanity. Perhaps you should go and shout at them to think about the consequences of their actions like inventing combustion engines, nuclear power and the bombs currently being used to kill innocent people.

 

[Scouse]

Unfortunately the argument you are repeating relies upon all people changing and nothing is ever 100%

Nope. I'm saying the systems of government need to change. Not the humans.

Besides the scientists of which you speak are group responsible for bringing us into a world of mutually assured destruction, so frankly they're not a bastion of sensible and rational decision making by humanity. Perhaps you should go and shout at them to think about the consequences of their actions like inventing combustion engines, nuclear power and the bombs currently being used to kill innocent people.

Politicians direct scientists, not the other way around.

Either way @Meg - you're ignoring the reality. We cannot afford war at the same time as running nuclear reactors.

Carry on if you like. But you kill us all if we do. And you accuse me of not being rational?

 

[Wij]

View: https://twitter.com/carlquintanilla/status/1499441995533717506

 

[MYstIC G]

Nope. I'm saying the systems of government need to change. Not the humans.


Politicians direct scientists, not the other way around.

Either way @Meg - you're ignoring the reality. We cannot afford war at the same time as running nuclear reactors.

Carry on if you like. But you kill us all if we do. And you accuse me of not being rational?

Governments that are run, arranged and implemented by humans... who won't all change.

By your logic, scientists should change and refuse the clearly horrific requests made of them and sacrifice their own lives for the greater good.

I'm not the one ignoring reality here, it's you. What's worse is you're an utter hypocrite because you wouldn't take the rough road for anyone and we all know it yet we constantly have to listen to you spout off about how that's what everyone else should do

♾️

 

[Marc]

It's not appeasement. We've already told Putin, before he started, that we wouldn't get militarily involved. We're still buying our gas off him. The west isn't really bothered about Ukraine.

But they've hit a nuclear reactor ffs. We cannot afford war any more. Wake up!

Pragmatically the conflict needs to end as soon as possible. Minimise loss of life and damage to infrastructure. Then sit down and work out how to prevent it ever happening again. Properly, like they said they would after WW2, before they betrayed the lives of all those who died.

There are 103 nuclear power plants in Europe. A meltdown at one can be utterly disastrous.

Russia have just shelled a reactor. There are fires at the plant and shelling is stopping fire services putting them out.

You need to ditch your pre-WW2 mindset. We all do. Like the scientists repeatedly told us we must do over half a century ago.

It is appeasement though. So lets go with your scenario. We give up ukraine and then try and talk with Putin to make sure it never happens again

I will let you think about why that solution is utterly laughable. Go on, have a think about it and tell me its the right thing to do

 

[Wij]

Russia as the bastion of free speech:


View: https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPR/status/1499666447538212864

 

[DaGaffer]

Nope. I'm saying the systems of government need to change. Not the humans.

Not going to happen in your or my lifetime, and suggesting it can happen in time to sort Ukraine out is ridiculous. Putin wants Ukraine, any negotiation is "Ukraine is part of Russia", "no it isn't", rinse repeat.

Politicians direct scientists, not the other way around.

No they don't, not really. Every scientific field runs ahead of political consensus and then the politicians run to catch up. And fail.

Either way @Meg - you're ignoring the reality. We cannot afford war at the same time as running nuclear reactors.

Carry on if you like. But you kill us all if we do. And you accuse me of not being rational?

Why do you think the Russians have attacked a reactor? To get the west to panic and give them what they want. And six months' later they'll be in Finland, or worse, Poland, and they'll know to just lob a couple of artillery shells at a nuke plant and we'll fold. This is not going to stop and yes we're going to be dealing with nasty stuff, but its too late now.

You really do need to accept the world as it is, not the fantasy in your head.

 

[Scouse]

It is appeasement though. So lets go with your scenario. We give up ukraine

We've already given it up Marc. We told him we'd not get involved militarily. We're still buying our gas off Russia.

We're not fighting for Ukraine.


So it needs to end quickly - without NUCLEAR DISASTER.

 

[Scouse]

Not going to happen in your or my lifetime, and suggesting it can happen in time to sort Ukraine out is ridiculous. Putin wants Ukraine, any negotiation is "Ukraine is part of Russia", "no it isn't", rinse repeat.

We're not fighting for it. We've effectively told him he can do what he wants whilst making a bluster about sanctions that we'll lift in a bit. Meanwhile, we need our gas.

I'm clearly not saying we're going to do governmental reorg in time to sort out Ukraine (obvs). But we must look at things when this is done.

Why do you think the Russians have attacked a reactor? To get the west to panic and give them what they want. And six months' later they'll be in Finland, or worse, Poland, and they'll know to just lob a couple of artillery shells at a nuke plant and we'll fold. This is not going to stop and yes we're going to be dealing with nasty stuff, but its too late now.

He's not going to invade poland ffs. It's clear he's not capable and we would get involved militarily.

If that's the scenario on the table then we're all fucked anyway. So it doesn't help to worry about that.

You really do need to accept the world as it is, not the fantasy in your head.

I do - the reality is we don't give a shit about Ukraine. We don't.

We do have a problem with Nuclear Reactors posing severe threat to all of Europe and them not reacting well to explosions. Whether they hit this one deliberately, or whether they did it accidentally (even worse - but distinctly possible) - munitions and fission reactors don't mix well and have disastrous, potentially global, consequences.

So reality says to me "lets be honest about Ukraine, pragmatic about resolution of this conflict in as speedy a time as possible, resolute in our defence of our territory (he cannot be allowed to continue on) and then, when the dust settles, try to figure out a better way".


It's that last bit that's pissing people off. I'm saying "try to figure out a better way or sooner or later we all die" - and the vitriol that comes out of people for someone suggesting that the way we've organised our governments is counter-productive to the continued survival of the human race and maybe we should do something different is mind-boggling.

 

[dysfunction]

Yes we are not fighting but Ukraine is. Giving up to a bully won't stop a bully. You have to stand up to them.
Your idea of Ukraine just surrendering is idiotic.

Yes there is the issue of nuclear disaster but that has been stopped now and hopefully won't happen again.
But that is the fault of Putin and his army nobody else.

 

[DaGaffer]

We're not fighting for it. We've effectively told him he can do what he wants whilst making a bluster about sanctions that we'll lift in a bit. Meanwhile, we need our gas.

I'm clearly not saying we're going to do governmental reorg in time to sort out Ukraine (obvs). But we must look at things when this is done.


He's not going to invade poland ffs. It's clear he's not capable and we would get involved militarily.

If that's the scenario on the table then we're all fucked anyway. So it doesn't help to worry about that.


I do - the reality is we don't give a shit about Ukraine. We don't.

We do have a problem with Nuclear Reactors posing severe threat to all of Europe and them not reacting well to explosions. Whether they hit this one deliberately, or whether they did it accidentally (even worse - but distinctly possible) - munitions and fission reactors don't mix well and have disastrous, potentially global, consequences.

So reality says to me "lets be honest about Ukraine, pragmatic about resolution of this conflict in as speedy a time as possible, resolute in our defence of our territory (he cannot be allowed to continue on) and then, when the dust settles, try to figure out a better way".


It's that last bit that's pissing people off. I'm saying "try to figure out a better way or sooner or later we all die" - and the vitriol that comes out of people for someone suggesting that the way we've organised our governments is counter-productive to the continued survival of the human race and maybe we should do something different is mind-boggling.

We are going to stop buying their gas, its a timing issue not a commitment issue.

Finland isn't in NATO, you think he won't have a go if he gets his way in Ukraine? The threats aren't bluster.

And I'm sorry a lot of us do care about Ukraine, shit gets real when you actually talk to people under fire every day. Are we hypocrites for not caring as much about brown people far away? Absolutely (and I've been thinking about that a lot lately) but you're wrong to say people don't care, they do, at many levels from the human to the political to the strategic.

"When the dust settles"; deathless words for "when the Ukrainians are under the Russian yoke". The problem is now, and letting the Russians get their way and thinking we can sort it later is desperately naive, nuclear reactors or not.

 

[Scouse]

We are going to stop buying their gas, its a timing issue not a commitment issue.

You sure? Nordstream 2 is "delayed", not cancelled. And we're still buying their gas today.

Ukraine isn't something worth wearing jumpers over to the west.

And I'm sorry a lot of us do care about Ukraine, shit gets real when you actually talk to people under fire every day. Are we hypocrites for not caring as much about brown people far away? Absolutely (and I've been thinking about that a lot lately) but you're wrong to say people don't care, they do, at many levels from the human to the political to the strategic.

On a human level absolutely @DaGaffer. I'm no monster - I feel this just as keenly as anyone else. For 3 weeks last month I was sat next to a set of Ukrainian developers in Malta. Family in Kiev *and more development staff there). You can't tell me anything about the human situation that I haven't felt keenly and personally - and it's horrible. But I'm clearly talking about the political kind of caring - which is the only kind of caring that can make a difference to them - and we're acting in opposition to the minimisation of civilian deaths in Ukraine.

If we care about the people - then we get this done quickly, cleanly and then move on.

When the dust settles"; deathless words for "when the Ukrainians are under the Russian yoke". The problem is now, and letting the Russians get their way and thinking we can sort it later is desperately naive, nuclear reactors or not.

You cannot dismiss or play down the nuclear problem. "Nuclear reactors or not". - there's no "not". There's a very real threat that some wanker, deliberately or not, will start a chain reaction which leads to a proper meltdown.

We were talking morality recently? How about this - better Ukranians under Russian yoke than nuclear fallout all over Europe.

 

[ECA]

It's fucking idiotic to keep thinking about war the way most of us still do.

We cannot afford it.

Zelenskiy says ‘Europe must wake up’ after assault sparks nuclear plant fire

Ukraine and US embassy denounce attack on huge Zaporizhzhia power station as war crime

www.theguardian.com

Europe is peppered with nuclear power plants. We HAVE to find a different way of resolving differences.

Right now, Ukraine can't win. So I repeat - they should surrender.

Eliminating the possibility of nuclear disaster in Ukraine that can potentially fuck all of Europe is worth ponying up Ukraine. They need to be thrown under the bus.

then the west and Russia need to sit down and figure out a system were we never go to war again.

lmao.
Putins demands would be handing over every single eastern bloc country to russia, and winding nato down, and then he'd attack right after.

 

[Syri]

Scouse, you are being admirable and idealistic, but the reality is that there is a nutter running a country who seems to want to bully anyone not playing his way. If Ukraine just give up and give him free reign, he'll just invade the next country, and the next, and the next. The more he takes, the more he'll want. I don't think anybody wants to invite a nuclear disaster (apart from maybe Putin if he doesn't get his way) but I also don't think anyone wants an insane trigger happy proven liar of a dictator running the entire world either, and that's what your "let them take Ukraine" attitude would result in.
Yes, it'd be GREAT if people really would just put the guns down and talk it out. We tried that, Putin said he wouldn't invade, said he was moving troops away... He moved them in and attacked civilian targets. Negotiation just doesn't work against people like that. I wish there were a better, and peaceful, solution, but there just doesn't seem to be one. Idealism only gets you so far, you have to actually acknowledge the way the world is, not the way you'd like it to be.

 

[Scouse]

there is a nutter running a country who seems to want to bully anyone not playing his way. If Ukraine just give up and give him free reign, he'll just invade the next country, and the next, and the next. The more he takes, the more he'll want. I don't think anybody wants to invite a nuclear disaster (apart from maybe Putin if he doesn't get his way) but I also don't think anyone wants an insane trigger happy proven liar of a dictator running the entire world either, and that's what your "let them take Ukraine" attitude would result in.

This is all nonsense m8. Sorry. It's not a new Blitzkrieg. He hasn't the capability (and I refute the "nutter" accusation - he's no more nuts than any other human - he's just got his own agenda).

But what can happen and is very serious is nuclear meltdown and fallout.

 

[ECA]

This is all nonsense m8. Sorry. It's not a new Blitzkrieg. He hasn't the capability (and I refute the "nutter" accusation - he's no more nuts than any other human - he's just got his own agenda).

But what can happen and is very serious is nuclear meltdown and fallout.

You know the energodam plant is closer to moscow than warsaw right?

Plus I've always wanted a third hand, think about how much more productive we could all be.

 

[Scouse]

You know the energodam plant is closer to moscow than warsaw right?

Chernobyl is definitely closer to Moscow than Cardiff - but consumption of Welsh Lamb was still banned for two and a half years because of the radiation.

Chernobyl was in 1986, but animals were still getting banned from sale post radiation testing in 1992 - and some were still showing elevated levels of Caesium in 2011, but then we stopped bothering monitoring.

Plus I've always wanted a third hand, think about how much more productive we could all be.

Second cock? Double the fun.

And it will glow in the dark too.

 

[ECA]

I think we should not fight russia, but we should assist them denazifying ukraine.
We could start by bombing the russians.

 

[Scouse]

We could start by bombing the russians.

Or shagging them with our double electro-cocks?

Make love, AND war.

 

[Gumbo]

We are fighting for Ukraine. We're supplying tens of thousands of anti tank and anti aircraft weapons. We're their eyes and ears. There are constant AWACS, Combat Sent, Global Hawk and JStars. These, together with satellite information will be telling the Ukrainians exactly what is going on and where. We're sending masses of other supplies. We've destroyed the Russian economy completely in less than a week.

The only thing that we're not doing is pulling the trigger. To be honest I'm surprised that we've got away with this much without Putin naming it as an attack and responding accordingly.

 

[Wij]

We are fighting for Ukraine. We're supplying tens of thousands of anti tank and anti aircraft weapons. We're their eyes and ears. There are constant AWACS, Combat Sent, Global Hawk and JStars. These, together with satellite information will be telling the Ukrainians exactly what is going on and where. We're sending masses of other supplies. We've destroyed the Russian economy completely in less than a week.

The only thing that we're not doing is pulling the trigger. To be honest I'm surprised that we've got away with this much without Putin naming it as an attack and responding accordingly.

Putin isn't yet ready to destroy the whole world.

 

[Raven]

Ukraine sanctions: UK dockers refuse tanker of Russian gas

A union urges the government to clarify sanctions rules to include vessels carrying Russian cargo.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[caLLous]

 

[Talivar]

Scouse i admire your desire for a better world but the reality is you are fighting against the tide and human nature is 100s of years away at the very least of reaching the point you want. The hard truth is at this moment in time people like you just empower and enable people like Putin who would gladly take your views and your surrender then just shoot you dead and walk over your corpse.

 

[Raven]

Sorry, sky news.

Sky News team's harrowing account of their violent ambush in Ukraine this week

On Monday, near Kyiv, chief correspondent Stuart Ramsay and his team were attacked. Camera operator Richie Mockler took two rounds to his body armour, Stuart was wounded. Their experience illustrates the scale of the mayhem and violence as Russia's invasion enters a new and deadlier phase.

news.sky.com

 

[ECA]

Behold the power of the internet.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo7tWhre9hs