News US School massacre

[Zenith]

Id say the whole discussion is misled. Where is the outcry for increased mental health care? Getting help for yourself, or worse, for a relative, is hard enough in Western Europe, and much much worse in the US. How many massacres or suicides could have been averted if these people could actually get to see a psychologist of some sort?

 

[TdC]

That's basically the jist of a Morgan Freeman quote (I don't know if it's genuine) that's bouncing around facebook atm. The quote more or less says "guns are not the issue, think of the victims, not the perpetrators, and donate to your mental health funds"

Tbh I feel there is a whole bunch of wrongness in there: a) guns are very much a helper agent in this case (sorry Throd), b)imo the perp is just as much a victim as the casualties of his deed and while I in part agree with c) donating to mental health funds, I wonder what concrete things will come from that? Will kids be immediately prescribed pills for being a bit quiet? Will autism/apergers become the new ADD? Imo that's a slap in the face of all autistic and aspergers syndrome people the world over

 

[throdgrain]

i always wonder why they start with "He was a lonesome type, he liked playing online computer games..."

always annoys me that we get lumped into the mass-murdering maniac group simply because we play computer games

also it was his mum that was a gun enthusiast not him so perhaps having lots of guns around a deranged son who hates you is perhaps a bad idea

NIMBY

 

[rynnor]

Id say the whole discussion is misled. Where is the outcry for increased mental health care? Getting help for yourself, or worse, for a relative, is hard enough in Western Europe, and much much worse in the US. How many massacres or suicides could have been averted if these people could actually get to see a psychologist of some sort?

I dont think it would help tbh.

Pretty much all the people who do these things are no different to a large percentage of the population.

You cant really take much notice of all the later characatures of crazy loner - thats just the press pandering to people who want to think these people were a special case.

I dont think such people are identifiable beforehand.

 

[Mabs]

there was a suggestion made by a psychologist ages ago that they report them as "Shooting at blah blah". end of
apparently some of these people crave the limelight, and do it to see their names in the paper/on tv, and its reckoned that if they werent named, and therefore not given their 15 mins of infamy, they might not do it.. who knows :/

 

[Zenith]

Identifiable as a future mass murderer? No, of course not. Identified as a human being struggling with life? Much more likely. It's just a sad reality it's fucking hard to get any kind of help.

to TdC: From a personal stand point I'm very much against the current trend of medicating everything and everyone with a wide array of pills. It helps, but cures nothing. And trust me, asbergers or any kind of the autism spectrum is much too severe to become the new "in illness".

What I meant was that mental health needs to be put on a new direction, especially in the US. Availability of therapy needs to be upped, and stigmas regarding mental health rebuked. This, of course, is a massive undertaking and needs a lot of funds, and may never happen. One can dream, eh?

 

[Scouse]

I enjoy watching the anti-gun nuts never ever sensibly address the very real threat to life posed by government - which is the prime reason for gun ownership in the constitution.

You're all:

Until you can come up with a reason why governments are to be trusted (when both history and current times show that they absolutely cannot) then the gun laws are not only a good thing but absolutely necessary.

Anyone who says "government atrocities are unlikely" has a simple, blinkered, naive mind.

 

[rynnor]

Identifiable as a future mass murderer? No, of course not. Identified as a human being struggling with life? Much more likely. It's just a sad reality it's fucking hard to get any kind of help.

Thats not what I'm saying - most of these people do not have a detectable mental health problem and how would you convince everyone in america to go to mental health screening and even if you did these things would still occur.

 

[rynnor]

Mexico has gun control, they just smuggle them from the us > mexico. Mexico has blamed the us for the guns its drug cartels use publicly.

Mexico barely functions as a state anymore - its ruled by various drug cartels and even the mexican army have proved powerless against them.

 

[Mabs]

love the way were "anti gun nuts" scouse . what does that make you ? Mr "im totally mentally balanced, now give me my goddamn firearm that i clearly need".. righto.... cretin

 

[megadave]

I enjoy watching the anti-gun nuts never ever sensibly address the very real threat to life posed by government - which is the prime reason for gun ownership in the constitution.

You're all:

Until you can come up with a reason why governments are to be trusted (when both history and current times show that they absolutely cannot) then the gun laws are not only a good thing but absolutely necessary.

Anyone who says "government atrocities are unlikely" has a simple, blinkered, naive mind.

The US have been committing atrocities for decades and their gun-wielding citizens couldn't give the slightest fuck.

 

[Scouse]

The US have been committing atrocities for decades and their gun-wielding citizens couldn't give the slightest fuck.

Not against their own citizens tho, eh?

 

[noblok]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...the-killing-of-a-16-year-old-american/264028/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

etc.

 

[soze]

I am seeing news articles like "nerd kills" "geek on killing spree" do they not realize that is is probably getting called names like that all though school that helped him become so fucked up? And I am sure all the other nutters out there will see that and won't take it badly at all.

 

[TdC]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...the-killing-of-a-16-year-old-american/264028/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_detainees_at_Guantanamo_Bay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act

etc.

that said I wonder how many Americans know what the patriot act actually means :-/

 

[Gumbo]

Yes it would stop a lot of people with psychological problems offing students en masse.

And as someone else said, the right to bear arms was introduced when the guns they were referring to were these:

What level of gun control do you see as possible to introduce in the US? Perhaps strong police checks, no one with a criminal record gets a firearm? Checks with your own doctor as to your general and mental health background? A limit to only semi automatic handguns with a max magazine size? Perhaps the exact same regime we had here when Hamilton killed so many at Dunblane.

Do you think for one second that the US would entertain anything stronger than the above?

If you do you're incredibly incredibly naive.

Don't forget, the maniac who did this didn't legally hold the guns, guns are obtainable if you're of a bent to do this kind of thing. Gun control won't stop it, not for a second.

 

[throdgrain]

It doesnt matter. They are allowed to defend themselves, and own guns to do it, and they think that they can do a millitia thing against a government, and thats what they care about.

 

[throdgrain]

No one with a felony is allowed to own a gun. I wouldnt be allowed to in the US, despite owning them here. You lot dont know all the facts, yet you go on and on with the lefty moral high ground like you know everything.

 

[Gumbo]

That's the thing, and why shouting about gun control is futile. This country has pretty strict controls, but imagine what you could do with a bag full of Benellis? 3 shots is the legal max, but that's 12 shots with just 4 guns. ( I am well good at maffs). Then you'll get a few seconds to throw another 12 cartridges up the tubes and then go again.

The only thing that could stop it is some mystical world where someone snaps their fingers and all the guns in the states go up in smoke.

That's not going to happen.

The most that could happen, in that culture would be perhaps a bit more of a requirement for background and medical checks. Perhaps a curb on semi auto rifles, although he'd have done just the same damage with handguns in this case.

There will be outrage, there will be posturing, there will be no change. Apart from perhaps in Connecticut itself where they'll tighten things a bit, but not much.

This is 4 pages of worthless bollox which I'm guilty of contributing to.

 

[throdgrain]

agreed.

 

[Job]

All these shootings..
Maybe they should ban schools.

 

[opticle]

Don't forget, the maniac who did this didn't legally hold the guns, guns are obtainable if you're of a bent to do this kind of thing. Gun control won't stop it, not for a second.

I think you misunderstand how "bent" these people are to obtain weapons. They were his MOTHER'S. Not exactly a difficult undertaking. And I doubt he was as much of a "Maniac" as you and the newspapers say. He was troubled - like a lot of people I've encountered. All it takes is the right series of events to push someone over the edge, and then it depends where the edge is. If that edge has guns in your Mum's closet.. well..

I agree, it is a difficult thing to control - I'm not naive - but just because a thing is difficult, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve a problem or turn a blind eye, does it ? Unless you're lazy or want to put your head in the sand.

Just admit it, gun control would most likely have avoided this tragedy.

No one wants to talk about bazookas and grenades and tanks.. what if they had a right to those ? That's cool ? Where are we happy to draw the line ? And why there ?

 

[opticle]

Yes it would stop a lot of people with psychological problems offing students en masse.

And as someone else said, the right to bear arms was introduced when the guns they were referring to were these:

Scouse, you disagreed with this.. you think lots of depressed and/or schizophrenic kids have easy access to guns in this country? Combine that with poor healthcare availability in the US.. Go figure. You're putting your head in the sand or you haven't seen many mental health problems close up if you think the vast majority are capable or motivated enough for this kind of thing.

The right to bear arms was introduced when they had semi-automatic weapons ? I didn't know that.

Guns are also age restricted, which is a huge oversimplification.. I know plenty of 14 year olds in this country I'd trust more than 30 year olds.

 

[Raven]

I wonder if this will get 4 pages of rubbish. Didn't even make the front page of the BBC site.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20752337

 

[Poag]

 

[DaGaffer]

I enjoy watching the anti-gun nuts never ever sensibly address the very real threat to life posed by government - which is the prime reason for gun ownership in the constitution.

No it isn't. You're as guilty of misreading the constitution as every "right to bear arms" fucktard out there. At no point does the Constitution say anything about the right to bear arms so your government can't fuck with you. At no point. (There is a mention of "enemies foreign and domestic", but its not in the constitution, its in the oath of allegiance...for the military).

I'm not going to get into the whole debate again (I searched, and it looks like this would be go-around no.6 since the formation of FH, and no-one's changed their opinion), but I did read a couple of interesting factoids in the Sunday Times yesterday; number of times armed civilians have "taken down" a gunman on a killing spree; twice, on both occasions because the assailant had run out of ammunition. And the second interesting piece; the rise in gun ownership for "self-defence" is a relatively new phenomena; apparently between the end of WWI and the late sixties, ownership of handguns in the US was in massive decline (although ownership of hunting weapons was not) and it was increasingly seen as socially unacceptable to own a hand gun. Interestingly, as hunting began to decline in the sixties/early seventies, the concept of weapons for self-defence began to get traction (ostensibly fueled by American fears over rising crime and loss of confidence in America after Vietnam). If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck... it's a duck, shoot it! or in other words, a marketing triumph.

As for this Lanza guy, "survivalist" mother (apparently they even have a cute name now, "preparer") who believed social and economic collapse was coming, and son with a "personality disorder" (whatever that means, since he seems to have been everything from autistic to psychotic), and his parents recently divorced. In his own warped world he probably thought he was doing his mother and those poor little kids a favour.

 

[throdgrain]

Scouse, you disagreed with this.. you think lots of depressed and/or schizophrenic kids have easy access to guns in this country? Combine that with poor healthcare availability in the US.. Go figure. You're putting your head in the sand or you haven't seen many mental health problems close up if you think the vast majority are capable or motivated enough for this kind of thing.

The right to bear arms was introduced when they had semi-automatic weapons ? I didn't know that.

Guns are also age restricted, which is a huge oversimplification.. I know plenty of 14 year olds in this country I'd trust more than 30 year olds.

Sorry Opticle but seriously, what the fuck are you going on about? So you trust some 14 year olds more than 30 year olds? So it would be better to have NO age restriction then would it? Like in this country? But then I bet you'd be squeaking about a 14 year old with a shotgun certificate (there are loads of them here).

Most people I know DO believe that the constitution of the US includes the right to bear arms to defend yourself against a) criminals and b) the state, so yours is a moot point Gaff.

 

[DaGaffer]

Sorry Opticle but seriously, what the fuck are you going on about? So you trust some 14 year olds more than 30 year olds? So it would be better to have NO age restriction then would it? Like in this country? But then I bet you'd be squeaking about a 14 year old with a shotgun certificate (there are loads of them here).

Most people I know DO believe that the constitution of the US includes the right to bear arms to defend yourself against a) criminals and b) the state, so yours is a moot point Gaff.

Doesn't matter what they believe, its not true. Bit like religion in fact.

 

[Chilly]

Well the actual text of the constitution doesnt mention the right to bear arms. At no point does it indicate that individuals should have cabinets full of weapons. That comes in later amendments. Whether you approve of amendments or not is something else.

Personally, I quite like guns but I can't really justify them to myself outside of rural settings (in the UK). I'm a stereotypical pyro nutter, I used to light fires in the garden all the time and muck about with making bombs out of stuff, I loved it. I never hurt anyone or anything (except perhaps some trees and insects by accident) doing it. However, in the cold light of day, I recognise that my enjoyment of that kind of stuff (which would easily extend to shooting the shit out of stuff on a range or on my land) needs to be balanced against the easy access to the tools required since they are extremely dangerous.

It's the same as controlling dangerous chemicals. Sure, if you know how to handle them they are safe and useful, but in the wrong hands shit goes wrong rapidly. Exactly like guns. Finding the balance and creating the right social structures to create sensible people who do not think to do these things is the real challenge. I suspect if the US had the same gun laws as the UK there would be fewer school massacres, but it's just my theory and who knows if it's true or not?

 

[DaGaffer]

I suspect if the US had the same gun laws as the UK there would be fewer school massacres, but it's just my theory and who knows if it's true or not?

The overwhelming weight of evidence from countries with gun control would be a bit of a clue. But of course...