United States Corrupt Twattery

[Gwadien]

Its not just down to policing its also the culture the young people are growing up in and that is down to social policy which i think he has some say over. No?

Less police means its harder to procescute and chances of seeing or responding quick enough are diminished. But i dont think its the root cause.

And how can Sadiq Khan have an impact on the culture of young people?

By using social services?

Social services that don't exist?

 

[Scouse]

Its not just down to policing its also the culture the young people are growing up in and that is down to social policy which i think he has some say over. No?

What the hell do you mean by "social policy"?

Society hasn't changed that much in the last eight years - what has changes is the fact that frontline policing - the thing that stops knife crime - has been cut massively.

 

[Moriath]

What the hell do you mean by "social policy"?

Society hasn't changed that much in the last eight years - what has changes is the fact that frontline policing - the thing that stops knife crime - has been cut massively.

How does front line policing stop knife crime?

They can have a more visible presence sure. But its hard to stop and search people for knives because of the racial profiling. I would say that they are used to clear up after the fact more than a preventative. And its the gang culture in and around london that is the issue.

 

[dysfunction]

No, they don’t. This is the fundamental problem with Trump’s argument. Who is the only potential threat to European security (excluding terrorism)? Russia. European NATO spends four times the amount on defence that Russia does. People have gotten fixated on this “2% of GDP” commitment with no understanding of the actual spend, the actual capability versus perceived threat, and why a bald 2% commitment by everyone is a pretty unsophisticated way to run a defence budget.

Then you get into the details; Trump has harangued Germany claiming they could spend their 2% commitment “tomorrow”. On what? The gap between current German spending and the 2% figure is about 20 billion euros a year. So recruit a few hundred thousand troops who sit on base scratching their arses all year? Or buy kit? Which in defence terms takes years or even decades to ramp up, and is the reason why Germany said they wouldn’t hit their (wholly artificial remember) commitment until 2024.

But, but, “America spends way more than 2% protecting deadbeat Europeans” claim the Trumpists. No they don’t. The US spends 4% of GDP to go play cowboy all over the world (their NATO commitment is barely a line item compared to what they’ve spent in the ME and of course,on their nukes), and because the US military is state sponsored job creation scheme.

The whole 2% thing is a farce (Britain and France spend 2% because they want to remain nuclear powers, irrelevant to every other European NATO member) and the real agenda for Trump, as always, is trade. He wants a return to the good old days when Europeans bought tons of US fighter planes. One big German F-35 order and he’d be off to bully his next target. Merkel isn’t a pushover though, and he hates women with a spine.

Yes they do

 

[Scouse]

And its the gang culture in and around london that is the issue.

Oh, so now Sadiq Khan is responsible for a massive rise in gang culture in the last eight years?

How's he done that, exactly? Through what mechanism?

 

[Scouse]

Yes they do

View attachment 38840

Wow Dys. Way to read the first sentence of an argument, and not follow any of the rest of it...

 

[Moriath]

Oh, so now Sadiq Khan is responsible for a massive rise in gang culture in the last eight years?

How's he done that, exactly? Through what mechanism?

I didnt say he was responsible for it. I said he might not have done all he could to bring communities together. To try and give poor people more opportunities in the capital. He makes policy and allocates funds to encourage people and groups within the city to tackle the route causes. He also influences government to help him get the things he wants. He could work towards reducing the causes of knife crimes rise Just like the mayors of NY who turned that city around when it had massive gang problems and gun crime.

The police provide a band aid for an under laying problem in the city. You will never stop a problem by covering it up. You need to attack it at the cause.

You put words into people mouths so you can act shocked and put them down. Rather than having a discussion you facepalm people.

You accuse people rather than trying to understand where the points of view come from. How they actually could be seen to layer with your point of view.

How arrogant is it that you think your one point of less police is the whole cause the only cause and nothing else could be making the issueworse.

 

[Gwadien]

It's not policing, it's other services which support all the major services, such as education, policing and the NHS.

They barely exist anymore, but because they're not actively saving peoples lives/arresting people/teaching people, they're largely ignored.

They're the services which 'bring communities together'.

Also.

Grenfell Tower fire - Wikipedia

I think local borough councils have a larger role to play.

Put it this way, I don't think Khan has done anything wrong; Johnson did fuck all, he was just lucky enough to rule when the Olympics was going on so London had a massive cash boost.

I've never seen anything Khan has been criticised for that doesn't include the fact he's a Muslim, including the scantly dressed women advertisement stuff - that's because he's a Muslim and he wants to oppress women, right?

 

[DaGaffer]

No, they don’t. “Defence expenditures of NATO countries” isn’t a synonym for “defence expenditure by NATO countries on NATO”. That’s the whole point.

 

[Embattle]

No, US does not pay for 70 or 90 percent of NATO

 

[Talivar]

Youth Services, Children's Services, Family Suppot Services, Education, Police have all taken massive cuts. These are the services which would have normally helped these young people into avoiding joining gangs ect

 

[Embattle]

Reality Check: is London's murder rate still higher than New York's?

 

[Scouse]

He could work towards reducing the causes of knife crimes rise Just like the mayors of NY who turned that city around when it had massive gang problems and gun crime.

The police provide a band aid for an under laying problem in the city. You will never stop a problem by covering it up. You need to attack it at the cause

These two things: 1) gang related crime (as with knife crime) was tackled using a change in policing tactics - which is hard to do when your frontline police have been decimated by the tories.

2) The underlying problem is inequality of wealth. Which since the financial crash has rocketted.

Kahn hasn't the resources to change the policing structure and as mayor of london doesn't have the influence to change global capitalism and it's structural issues.

The reason you got facepalmed is that the causes of knife crime / gang crime are well known and well understood - and we've implemented policies in similiar situations elsewhere on the planet that have helped alleviate the issues - but you're focussing on some bizzare magical "social policy" change that you think Kahn has up his sleeves. The underlying issues can't be dealt with in a sticking plaster manner (which any funds Kahn has to piss on unproven social experiments would amount to) so the only other option open to him is to change the policing - but Tory cuts have taken that option off the table.

Do you object to the obvious because you don't want to feel culpable because you voted Tory? I agree totally that we should deal with the underlying issues - but with this shower of self-interested shits in government you can see *exactly* what's happening.

Inequality is rampant in the UK, and getting worse by the hour.

It's not policing, it's other services which support all the major services, such as education, policing and the NHS.

I agree there's a wider social services issue, but considering they've all been cut because of "no money" (whilst the Bank of England pumps QE money that notionally has to be paid by our taxes directly into the pockets of already-rich shareholders) then the only proven way to deal with gang crime is the po-po. And although I'm not a fan of theirs - there's not many of them left for me to dislike...

 

[Scouse]

Reality Check: is London's murder rate still higher than New York's?

Absolutely.

But this is the "Donald Tump" effect. His worshippers (we all know who they are on here) take what he says as gospel. But every word he speaks makes it harder for us to deal with a very real problem we have right now - the rise of knife crime in London - because it distorts the arguments. Comparisons with New York are unhelpful - because the comparison we need to make is London now with London ten years ago. Then we need to understand what's changed and what we can do about it.

The New York thing is just an unhelpful fucking distraction for Trump-loving idiots that the British press can't help but suck down because he makes good headlines for them.

That graphic alone should kill the New York debate. The Beeb (and the guardian, and the sun / mail / express) should feel shame that they didn't just print what Trump said, followed by that graph, with no words.

 

[dysfunction]

Wow Dys. Way to read the first sentence of an argument, and not follow any of the rest of it...

I don't remember posting that. I just back home from the pub!

 

[caLLous]

I just back home from the pub!

At bloody midday?!

 

[Bodhi]

Has inequality been getting worse?

Looks like inequality hasn't changed much at all since the GFC.

 

[dysfunction]

At bloody midday?!

No my post last night!

 

[Moriath]

These two things: 1) gang related crime (as with knife crime) was tackled using a change in policing tactics - which is hard to do when your frontline police have been decimated by the tories.

2) The underlying problem is inequality of wealth. Which since the financial crash has rocketted.

Kahn hasn't the resources to change the policing structure and as mayor of london doesn't have the influence to change global capitalism and it's structural issues.

The reason you got facepalmed is that the causes of knife crime / gang crime are well known and well understood - and we've implemented policies in similiar situations elsewhere on the planet that have helped alleviate the issues - but you're focussing on some bizzare magical "social policy" change that you think Kahn has up his sleeves. The underlying issues can't be dealt with in a sticking plaster manner (which any funds Kahn has to piss on unproven social experiments would amount to) so the only other option open to him is to change the policing - but Tory cuts have taken that option off the table.

Do you object to the obvious because you don't want to feel culpable because you voted Tory? I agree totally that we should deal with the underlying issues - but with this shower of self-interested shits in government you can see *exactly* what's happening.

Inequality is rampant in the UK, and getting worse by the hour.



I agree there's a wider social services issue, but considering they've all been cut because of "no money" (whilst the Bank of England pumps QE money that notionally has to be paid by our taxes directly into the pockets of already-rich shareholders) then the only proven way to deal with gang crime is the po-po. And although I'm not a fan of theirs - there's not many of them left for me to dislike...

The police numbers in 2001 were under 26000 for the met police. They peaked around or just under 33,000 just as Boris took over. They are currently around 31,000 and have been predicted to be 28,000 by 2025.

These are front line numbers. So met police officers out there doing stuff. I cant see your decimation. Even with the predicted cuts by 2025 they are gonna be more police than in 2001 when we didnt have the scale of problem we do now.

 

[Bodhi]

The police numbers in 2001 were under 26000 for the met police. They peaked around or just under 33,000 just as Boris took over. They are currently around 31,000 and have been predicted to be 28,000 by 2025.

These are front line numbers. So met police officers out there doing stuff. I cant see your decimation. Even with the predicted cuts by 2025 they are gonna be more police than in 2001 when we didnt have the scale of problem we do now.

You can't bring up facts when people are doing a bit of good old fashioned Tory bashing.

 

[Gwadien]

The police numbers in 2001 were under 26000 for the met police. They peaked around or just under 33,000 just as Boris took over. They are currently around 31,000 and have been predicted to be 28,000 by 2025.

These are front line numbers. So met police officers out there doing stuff. I cant see your decimation. Even with the predicted cuts by 2025 they are gonna be more police than in 2001 when we didnt have the scale of problem we do now.

London's population over time

 

[Moriath]

London's population over time

So in 2001 it was 1 policeman for every 276ish people. Today its 1 policeman for 283 people.

If thats a decimation then im a china man.

 

[Job]

OK Job. Lets play the game "you're right" - and we do all hate everyone.

What should we do? Exactly. List of actions, not miles of waffle. What do you think we should do, and why?

Hate stems from culture, class and belief.
We need a year of honesty..just like an AA meeting, once you put racism and xenophobia on the table you can start to laugh at it.
All the thought police are doing is stoking divisions, embedding racist stereotypes and building resentment.
Trump is actually an important part of this process..but the left and the liberals are too busy feeding off their own bigotry to let it happen.

 

[Job]

London's population over time

The problem is the streets have been left to themselves...you are far..far more likely to be prosecuted for an offensive tweet than a mugging.
Police time is increasingly being spent on the miniscule legal wranglings of blame, while the citizens are told to fend for themselves.
Get a better alarm..maybe dress more conservatively, dont visit those areas, lock your doors, fit better locks, keep valuables out of sight.
People have long lost their cinfidence on a force that has retreated into offices ans spends 60% of its funding on gold pensions.

 

[Job]

Also @Job to reinforce my argument, can you please point out a series of poor decisions that Sadiq Khan has made for London.

Thanks.

I dont blame him for knife crime..hes hardly in a position to fix it in these poisoned days of criminal rights.
I despise him for being a slimeball chancer who is revelling in his profile as a Trump opponent while London burns.
He needs to go on TV and give us a list of Londons problems and a list of possible solutions.
Not trying to become a celebrity minority in power.

 

[Scouse]

Hate stems from culture, class and belief.
We need a year of honesty..just like an AA meeting, once you put racism and xenophobia on the table you can start to laugh at it.
All the thought police are doing is stoking divisions, embedding racist stereotypes and building resentment.
Trump is actually an important part of this process..but the left and the liberals are too busy feeding off their own bigotry to let it happen.

So your answer is "a year of honesty".

Great plan Job. That'll make a big difference. Wow. I'm amazed.

 

[Moriath]

So your answer is "a year of honesty".

Great plan Job. That'll make a big difference. Wow. I'm amazed.

Way to ignore the other argument that you plainly lost lol.

 

[Gwadien]

I dont blame him for knife crime..hes hardly in a position to fix it in these poisoned days of criminal rights.
I despise him for being a slimeball chancer who is revelling in his profile as a Trump opponent while London burns.
He needs to go on TV and give us a list of Londons problems and a list of possible solutions.
Not trying to become a celebrity minority in power.

Unless I am mistaken, didn't Trump fire the first shots by calling London a ghetto or something?

 

[Talivar]

Its not just about Police, you have to look at the cuts to the services who are actually expected to take these children and their families and facilitate a change in behaviour.

 

[Gwadien]

Its not just about Police, you have to look at the cuts to the services who are actually expected to take these children and their families and facilitate a change in behaviour.

I find it ironic that the ignored services are being ignored on here too.