United States Corrupt Twattery

[Wij]

Good long read...

https://www.economist.com/news/brie...icanandeuropeandemocracyturningpoliticsupto11

 

[Hawkwind]

An entire article that basically states the Russians (KGB++) are better at creating disinformation than the US (CIA etc.). So the campaigns US did in South America etc are acceptable but the Russians doing it is illegal. Whole thing just kinda makes me laugh. I can't stand the orange buffoon but all this is just a political circus sideshow. The article states the Russian did similar activity backing Bernie over Hillary, Hillary still won. How much effect all the manipulation has on people's opinions or voting patterns is something that needs looking into. Personally I doubt the effect is as great as some people think.

If this does all end in indictments for meddling then what next? CNN in the dock for their fake news BS. All media with political agenda should under the microscope for meddling... Maybe that would not be such a bad thing...

 

[Wij]

Bernie was a nobody before he started getting a push on social media and it had the desired effect of turning a lot of potential Democrat voters off voting for Hillary due to bad blood. It was actually pretty successful, not a failure at all.

How is CNN fake news? It made the odd mistake and corrected it. Shit happens. I don't see RT or Fox News correcting much of the bollox they peddle.

But your first point is the most pertinent. Russia is currently much better than the CIA or anyone at this.

 

[Bodhi]

No, the main thing that put off Democrat voters voting for Hillary, was Hillary Clinton. Unless you spent any time over there around the election, you cannot comprehend just how much the average American hated her, and everything that she stood for.

If she hadn't (very dubiously) won the primary, there is a very good chance Bernie would be President right now.

But she did, and now we have President Trump. Feel free to keep hammering on the Russia point, but there is only one person who can take responsibility for who is in the White House right now, and it's Hillary Clinton.

 

[caLLous]

A real hero...

 

[Wij]

No, the main thing that put off Democrat voters voting for Hillary, was Hillary Clinton.

In some cases yes. In others not so much. I have family in the US and have worked with many over the years. I know people in the US (and in Britain for that matter) who previously weren't that fussed about her either way but by 2016 had just heard 'all these stories'.

If you ask for details most of these stories are easily debunked but the damage is done.

Anyway. The facts are well documented. Russia attempted to interfere in the election to help Bernie and Trump but mainly to hinder Hillary. That's not in dispute. They believed in the efforts enough to spend tens of millions on it. Whether it made any difference we could debate endlessly to little effect.

What's also not in dispute is that this is against the law in the US. You could argue that the US has done the same and we could debate about whether that's really equivalent, again to little effect. It still is against US law.

The next question is whether the Trump campaign solicited this 'help' or participated or not. We'll see. After that, was Trump himself implicated. We'll see.

 

[Hawkwind]

What's also not in dispute is that this is against the law in the US. You could argue that the US has done the same and we could debate about whether that's really equivalent, again to little effect. It still is against US law.

And that is the crux of it, the don't do as we do because we don't like it rule. Since when did US law jurisdiction cover Russia and the entire web infrastructure. the jurisdiction of the web is very complex thing. The fact that Merica thinks they own it all is an issue for the rest of the world. Also, this misinformation game has been played out since the cold war. For entirely political reasons and because they think they can hurt the incumbent the left are fighting this battle.

US Law is not globally enforceable. Look at the illegal shit US pulled over the war on terror, black site renditions etc. They chose to ignore every other countries laws when it suits them. America needs a lesson in ethics and law jurisdiction, McCarthyism and US policing the world is dead and should RIP.

 

[DaGaffer]

And that is the crux of it, the don't do as we do because we don't like it rule. Since when did US law jurisdiction cover Russia and the entire web infrastructure. the jurisdiction of the web is very complex thing. The fact that Merica thinks they own it all is an issue for the rest of the world. Also, this misinformation game has been played out since the cold war. For entirely political reasons and because they think they can hurt the incumbent the left are fighting this battle.

US Law is not globally enforceable. Look at the illegal shit US pulled over the war on terror, black site renditions etc. They chose to ignore every other countries laws when it suits them. America needs a lesson in ethics and law jurisdiction, McCarthyism and US policing the world is dead and should RIP.

I don’t think anyone is expecting the FBI to be conducting dawn raids from Smolensk to St.Petersburg; they’re looking for Americans who were complicit in Russia’s actions. First they had to prove Russia were up to no good, which is pretty much a given at this point. Basic chain of evidence

 

[Job]

This story just keeps giving.

A Republican congressman just blamed gun control for Jewish people being killed in the Holocaust

 

[Hawkwind]

I don’t think anyone is expecting the FBI to be conducting dawn raids from Smolensk to St.Petersburg; they’re looking for Americans who were complicit in Russia’s actions. First they had to prove Russia were up to no good, which is pretty much a given at this point. Basic chain of evidence

I get it, but the point is that it is entirely duplicitous to point fingers and complain when you do exactly the same thing.

This whole polarisation of America and Western societies in general is the cause of what is going on. Good documentary on the whole Dr Peterson and the intellectual dark web sensation. Raises some very good points.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQCTeGKHsVc

 

[Job]

Not sure what the agenda is with this one, except its a complete coup for the far right across Europe.

French far-right leader Marine Le Pen charged over Isis tweets

 

[Scouse]

Keep yer guns America. They'll lock you up for denouncing ISIS. There ain't no such thing as free speech in Europe.

What an own goal.

 

[DaGaffer]

I get it, but the point is that it is entirely duplicitous to point fingers and complain when you do exactly the same thing.

This whole polarisation of America and Western societies in general is the cause of what is going on. Good documentary on the whole Dr Peterson and the intellectual dark web sensation. Raises some very good points.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQCTeGKHsVc

Of course its duplicitous, what does that have to do with it? The CIA and the NSA are constantly breaking the laws of other countries, and it is the job of those countries to stop them. That's the nature of espionage since Gilgamesh. It is the job of American law enforcement to stop foreign interference in their affairs, and in particular to stop American citizens being complicit in that interference. The fact that Russia interfered in the election is actually a side issue, the crime is who in America knew, how did they help and how did they benefit?

NB. The polarisation in the west is a trend the Russians (and probably the Chinese) are taking advantage of, but it doesn't alter the fact that a crime was committed by Americans, that's against the American national interest.

 

[Wij]

I get it, but the point is that it is entirely duplicitous to point fingers and complain when you do exactly the same thing.

This whole polarisation of America and Western societies in general is the cause of what is going on. Good documentary on the whole Dr Peterson and the intellectual dark web sensation. Raises some very good points.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQCTeGKHsVc

That video reminds me why I left Psychology. There's no such thing as an Animus or a Shadow-self. They can't be proven to exist. It isn't science. They are no more real than egos and ids. They are just asserted to be true and then used to 'explain' things in terms of sweeping generalisations. A whole body of pseudo-knowledge with big smart-sounding words.

Whilst there are some grains of truth in there about society (yes it's polarised although I'd dispute the causes) I can't help but feel it's being used as a pseudo-intellectual fig-leaf for all sorts of views that have been unpopular recently for probably good reason.

Just on specifics I wanted to shout at the screen when he started imagining a female-dominated political landscape and speculating that they'd just want to give everyone the same. Um, we had Mrs Thatcher. She was very big on that 'being responsible for yourself' thing. I suppose they'd just explain that as her being masculinised or red-sided or something. But if everything can be explained away and nothing disproves your theory then it it meaningless.

Most of the psychobollox in that film is no worse than psychobollox I've heard from lecturers or in textbooks but none of it is any more meaningful than Team America's "Dicks, Pussies and Assholes" speech and at least that had the virtue of being funny.

 

[Lakih]

Just on specifics I wanted to shout at the screen when he started imagining a female-dominated political landscape and speculating that they'd just want to give everyone the same. Um, we had Mrs Thatcher. She was very big on that 'being responsible for yourself' thing. I suppose they'd just explain that as her being masculinised or red-sided or something.

I think you missed the point they were trying to make. As they said in the video, yes there's been female leaders and queens, but we never had a female dominated political landscape, I.E. most, or all, political positions are held by females.

There are no hard facts in soft sciences, this is just their theory to describe the human psyche. You observe, take notes, put fancy labels on broad strokes of personalities that conforms to most people, put other labels on those who don't fit into your pidgeon holes, and then present it. Viola! You have your own version of "the truth".

 

[Wij]

Viola! You have your own version of "the truth".

Which is exactly my problem with it.

 

[Wij]

Subscribe to read

 

[Job]

I heard somewhere that the entire internet could be provided ad free for 5 dollars per month each.
That would include all movies and music and all scientific papers.
Its pennies to us rich, why isnt it an option.

 

[caLLous]

You "heard somewhere". Who would have to pay $5? Everyone who uses the internet? Everyone? Who would all of these people pay $5 to?

 

[Job]

It was just a economic study, simply gauging the monthly ad income from the net and how much each person connected to the net could pay to equal it.

 

[caLLous]

Again though, who would you pay for access to everything ad free? You asked why it isn't an option so presumably you have a plan...

 

[Job]

Yes..I'm going to bring it up on the internet..this was it.
It would have to come with total net neutrality, a ban on trackers, any kind of scripts used to gain information and no access to phone functions outside of the requirements of the app.

 

[caLLous]

Ok so we'll notch that one down as another one of @Job's pipe dreams.

 

[Hawkwind]

That video reminds me why I left Psychology. There's no such thing as an Animus or a Shadow-self. They can't be proven to exist. It isn't science. They are no more real than egos and ids. They are just asserted to be true and then used to 'explain' things in terms of sweeping generalisations. A whole body of pseudo-knowledge with big smart-sounding words.

Whilst there are some grains of truth in there about society (yes it's polarised although I'd dispute the causes) I can't help but feel it's being used as a pseudo-intellectual fig-leaf for all sorts of views that have been unpopular recently for probably good reason.

Just on specifics I wanted to shout at the screen when he started imagining a female-dominated political landscape and speculating that they'd just want to give everyone the same. Um, we had Mrs Thatcher. She was very big on that 'being responsible for yourself' thing. I suppose they'd just explain that as her being masculinised or red-sided or something. But if everything can be explained away and nothing disproves your theory then it it meaningless.

Most of the psychobollox in that film is no worse than psychobollox I've heard from lecturers or in textbooks but none of it is any more meaningful than Team America's "Dicks, Pussies and Assholes" speech and at least that had the virtue of being funny.

I would agree 100% on the psychobabble, I don't honestly get it and have never spent much time looking into it either. Same as I don't spend much time looking into religion. The film raised some good points well outside the human psyche domain. I looked past that at the underlying issues being discussed, the war on men etc.

There is a lot I don't agree with I don't agree with free thinking being labelled alt-right and then shut down anytime someone hears something too real for them. Most of all I fear the war against males right now by the left and what that means for my 17 yr old son coming of age in this madness. Where guilt is predisposed just because you're male. Trial by social media instead of due process.

On Thatcher, one women does not a government make! In fact Sweden right now is probably the closest we have had and look at some of the anti male statements we have had from them, last years' cars being equality issue taking space from women etc...

I also agree that are many issues together that are the cause of the polarisation, I never stated this video represented the sole reason for it. Of course there are issues such as socioeconomic changes that have affected much of Americas old industrial areas, largely neglected by past governments. Simply put they don't care about social justice and have been used by the conservatives to combat the left. Empty promises of prosperity (? not much evidence so far) and playing the immigrant card, same way UKIP and Brexiteers did. Reagan did much the same using religion and fear in the Midwest back in 80's. No lessons learned then... Then there is leftist indoctrination through the education system in much of North America. Yeah, that one is questionable but there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest that it exists and that the western education system is pandering to a leftist agenda.

 

[Hawkwind]

You "heard somewhere". Who would have to pay $5? Everyone who uses the internet? Everyone? Who would all of these people pay $5 to?

Does that include near 70% of the worlds people that do not have good access to it? 3rd World rural areas etc. Even remote ares in Africa and South America where only satellite internet can be found and the costs are extreme $0.05-$0.25 per MB!!

 

[Job]

Play the immigrant card.
Thats the first line of attack..belittle their concerns, with a smug pigeonholing of their thoughts as neanderthal, uneducated...a pre arranged manipulation that they fall for.
Doesnt work anymore..as Brexit and the en masse rejection of immigration across Europe has shown.

 

[Wij]

I would agree 100% on the psychobabble, I don't honestly get it and have never spent much time looking into it either. Same as I don't spend much time looking into religion. The film raised some good points well outside the human psyche domain. I looked past that at the underlying issues being discussed, the war on men etc.

There is a lot I don't agree with I don't agree with free thinking being labelled alt-right and then shut down anytime someone hears something too real for them. Most of all I fear the war against males right now by the left and what that means for my 17 yr old son coming of age in this madness. Where guilt is predisposed just because you're male. Trial by social media instead of due process.

On Thatcher, one women does not a government make! In fact Sweden right now is probably the closest we have had and look at some of the anti male statements we have had from them, last years' cars being equality issue taking space from women etc...

I also agree that are many issues together that are the cause of the polarisation, I never stated this video represented the sole reason for it. Of course there are issues such as socioeconomic changes that have affected much of Americas old industrial areas, largely neglected by past governments. Simply put they don't care about social justice and have been used by the conservatives to combat the left. Empty promises of prosperity (? not much evidence so far) and playing the immigrant card, same way UKIP and Brexiteers did. Reagan did much the same using religion and fear in the Midwest back in 80's. No lessons learned then... Then there is leftist indoctrination through the education system in much of North America. Yeah, that one is questionable but there is plenty of evidence out there to suggest that it exists and that the western education system is pandering to a leftist agenda.

Whilst I will give you the fact that post-structuralist thinking in higher education in some of the western world is a plague on humanity, in general I don't see any 'war on men'. There may be the odd story of obvious injustice but that doesn't paint a picture of society as a whole. Male privelege in general is still alive and well. The job I do is at leat 90% male and it is desk-bound.

Where do you read about this war on men?

 

[Hawkwind]

Whilst I will give you the fact that post-structuralist thinking in higher education in some of the western world is a plague on humanity, in general I don't see any 'war on men'. There may be the odd story of obvious injustice but that doesn't paint a picture of society as a whole. Male privelege in general is still alive and well. The job I do is at leat 90% male and it is desk-bound.

Where do you read about this war on men?

Literally every recent award show for a start. Where you have to listen to second wave fem BS that is no longer about equality, it's reparation. Perceived sins of the forefather... The whole #meto witch hunt where men are guilty by default, no due process...

It's out there and building.

 

[Hawkwind]

Play the immigrant card.
Thats the first line of attack..belittle their concerns, with a smug pigeonholing of their thoughts as neanderthal, uneducated...a pre arranged manipulation that they fall for.
Doesnt work anymore..as Brexit and the en masse rejection of immigration across Europe has shown.

Actually it was an honest question, did the people that came up with this calculation just divide the costs by 7.6 billion?

 

[Job]

Whilst I will give you the fact that post-structuralist thinking in higher education in some of the western world is a plague on humanity, in general I don't see any 'war on men'. There may be the odd story of obvious injustice but that doesn't paint a picture of society as a whole. Male privelege in general is still alive and well. The job I do is at leat 90% male and it is desk-bound.

Where do you read about this war on men?

Its just uni kids reinventing the long invented, then lecturing old people on it.

Around 24 centuries ago, Plato, according to Elaine Hoffman Baruch, " argued for the total political and sexual equality of women, advocating that they be members of his highest class, ... those who rule and fight"