NSFW Today's shooting

[Trem]

They are human beings ffs. They just happen to be born in a country that is fucked.

What we need to be doing is to either unfuck their countries by any mean necessary or make allowances for them to join our society.

People need to ask what they would do if they were in the same situation as these people.

Despite what Scouse says, we are stupidly privileged in Europe, we are absolutely rolling in it, every last one of us. It's about time we actually helped those less unfortunate than us.

Poverty here is going to a food bank, poverty there is watching your family and friends getting blown to bits and your kids starving (not starving because they haven't had their weetabix but starving because they havn't eaten in days).

Good point but why don't they stop at the first safe country instead of continuing onto the UK if they have come from such hardship?

 

[DaGaffer]

They are human beings ffs. They just happen to be born in a country that is fucked.

What we need to be doing is to either unfuck their countries by any mean necessary or make allowances for them to join our society.

People need to ask what they would do if they were in the same situation as these people.

Despite what Scouse says, we are stupidly privileged in Europe, we are absolutely rolling in it, every last one of us. It's about time we actually helped those less unfortunate than us.

Poverty here is going to a food bank, poverty there is watching your family and friends getting blown to bits and your kids starving (not starving because they haven't had their weetabix but starving because they havn't eaten in days).

Well said.

 

[Job]

Why do politicians go against public opinion and continue to allow record numbers of immigrants in the country...the papers talk of it like it's a failure to contain the situation...who the fuck is kidding who here..it's a policy to let them in, firstly we need immigrants to pay for us in old age and for all those lazy cunts on the dole or ..I've got a sore toe..invalidity, the UK is fighting in a big world and a country full of old white people ain't going to last long and the politicians know it, but it's a hot potato , so they let them in until they practically have riot..the promise to fix it, even UKIP would keep letting in tens of thousands a year.

 

[DaGaffer]

Good point but why don't they stop at the first safe country instead of continuing onto the UK if they have come from such hardship?

Most of them do. Germany, Austria, Italy and even poor fucked up Greece are taking more migrants than the UK. But it's inevitable that the UK will have its attractions because it's English speaking and easier to get work. And you know what? Most of the migrants are coming from Afghanistan and Syria, both countries we've a certain amount of culpability in creating the situations there, so looking after some of these poor bastards is good karma

 

[caLLous]

And Calais gets all of the attention because it's a bottleneck for getting to the UK from France the "easiest" way (ie you avoid having to float across the world's busiest seaway on a dinghy).

 

[Trem]

Most of them do. Germany, Austria, Italy and even poor fucked up Greece are taking more migrants than the UK. But it's inevitable that the UK will have its attractions because it's English speaking and easier to get work. And you know what? Most of the migrants are coming from Afghanistan and Syria, both countries we've a certain amount of culpability in creating the situations there, so looking after some of these poor bastards is good karma

Yeah the Afghan situation sure is a lot to do with good ol' Blair and Bush, how dare Labour use that situation as an argument now.

I saw the camps in Greece, they looked grim, so I assume that is why many move on from there? I don't believe that all settle in the first safe country. We are talking about illegals here aren't we?

 

[DaGaffer]

Yeah the Afghan situation sure is a lot to do with good ol' Blair and Bush, how dare Labour use that situation as an argument now.

I saw the camps in Greece, they looked grim, so I assume that is why many move on from there? I don't believe that all settle in the first safe country. We are talking about illegals here aren't we?

No, but relative to their own population, Greece are still taking more than the UK:

And this is the 2014 graph, its worse now. Germany, in their defence, are stepping up; they've got the strongest economy and are taking by far the biggest chunk of migrants; they've ignored the EU agreed asylum quotas and basically opened their borders. The country that's probably got the most difficulties is Italy; taking huge numbers and their economy is in the dumper. Oh, and the ones who are going for the welfare payments? They're not aiming for the UK; look at the Sweden number.

 

[Trem]

Is Greece taking that many because of it's location? Is Turkey not considered safe? I am asking questions here not arguing.

Sweden? That's a fair fucking trek from Syria :/

 

[DaGaffer]

A. Yes, b. Turkey isn't in the EU, and the Syrians in particular have "issues" with the current Turkish regime (who've probably been helping ISIS against the Kurds in Syria until very recently), but there are still 1.4 million Syrian refugees in Turkey. Yes Sweden is a long way away, but there's supposed to be an agreement across the whole EU to apportion refugees, but its not working, and Sweden is opening its borders more than others, and taking a lot more than its quota.

What's missing from the debate about migrants to the EU is where else they're going; this isn't just an EU issue, most of the Syrian refugees are in Lebanon (1.2M) and Jordan (600K) a lot more than coming to Europe.

 

[Trem]

But if a Syrian is in mortal danger he or she would skip Turkey because he or she has an issue with that country? Obviously we can't judge on a one by one basis but you can see my point can't you? I am also sort of not concerned about EU countries I am concerned about countries considered safe for the purpose of this discussion.

 

[DaGaffer]

But if a Syrian is in mortal danger he or she would skip Turkey because he or she has an issue with that country? Obviously we can't judge on a one by one basis but you can see my point can't you? I am also sort of not concerned about EU countries I am concerned about countries considered safe for the purpose of this discussion.

I don't understand your point. Only countries right next door should take refugees? Personally, if I was Syrian, I'd be looking to get as far from the Middle East as humanly possible. Is Lebanon safe? Is Jordan? is Turkey? If Syria doesn't normalise, or God forbid, ISIS win, what then? Israel won and Palestinians have been sat in camps around the region for 70 years, would you want that for your family?

 

[Trem]

I don't understand your point. Only countries right next door should take refugees? Personally, if I was Syrian, I'd be looking to get as far from the Middle East as humanly possible. Is Lebanon safe? Is Jordan? is Turkey? If Syria doesn't normalise, or God forbid, ISIS win, what then? Israel won and Palestinians have been sat in camps around the region for 70 years, would you want that for your family?

I'm not on about countries taking them, I am on about the persons point of view. I'm on about these people who are fleeing for their life, surely the first none warring country they get to is going to be safer than the one they have left? If it was me with my family I wouldn't drag them on to the next country, then the next etc in case the same thing happens that happened in Israel.....that's crazy thinking.

If my house was on fire I wouldn't use next door but one's phone to ring the fire brigade because I don't like my neighbour. If a madman is in my house with an axe the same thing applies. If England is under seige I wouldn't skip past France because it could end up a bit ropey in a few decades, I would sit there with my head in my hands holding my family crying with joy that we are safe.

 

[DaGaffer]

I'm not on about countries taking them, I am on about the persons point of view. I'm on about these people who are fleeing for their life, surely the first none warring country they get to is going to be safer than the one they have left? If it was me with my family I wouldn't drag them on to the next country, then the next etc in case the same thing happens that happened in Israel.....that's crazy thinking.

If my house was on fire I wouldn't use next door but one's phone to ring the fire brigade because I don't like my neighbour. If a madman is in my house with an axe the same thing applies. If England is under seige I wouldn't skip past France because it could end up a bit ropey in a few decades, I would sit there with my head in my hands holding my family crying with joy that we are safe.

Sure, and then ten minutes later you realise you're stuck in a refugee camp with no idea when that will end or how you're going to feed your family. Then what?

 

[Trem]

But people in peril don't think like that. If their life is truly in danger the next day is a million miles off. I honestly do not believe they flee with a life plan if they are running for their lives.

Get safe. End of.

 

[DaGaffer]

But people in peril don't think like that. If their life is truly in danger the next day is a million miles off. I honestly do not believe they flee with a life plan if they are running for their lives.

Get safe. End of.

But you're assuming most of these people haven't been sat in a refugee camp in the Middle East for months or years already

 

[Gwadien]

But people in peril don't think like that. If their life is truly in danger the next day is a million miles off. I honestly do not believe they flee with a life plan if they are running for their lives.

Get safe. End of.

Look how we responded to the migrants, and we have Human rights and stuff.

How do you think the Turks, who don't get on with the Syrians, and their Government which doesn't get on with the Syrians even more would treat them?

Besides, why are we even debating this?

These people need help, but we need to stop thinking that they caused the financial crisis before we do.

 

[Trem]

I aren't debating anything. I'm talking (mainly to DaG) about how these things work out.

Let me guess, it's not allowed because I should just accept your view on it?

 

[Gwadien]

I aren't debating anything. I'm talking (mainly to DaG) about how these things work out.

Let me guess, it's not allowed because I should just accept your view on it?

Sounded to me like you were going down the route of 'Why us?'

I'm happy for things like that to be questions - but to get into that debate whilst 75 people die in a lorry trying to get into a safe place, not now, no.

 

[Trem]

Sounded to me like you were going down the route of 'Why us?'

I'm happy for things like that to be questions - but to get into that debate whilst 75 people die in a lorry trying to get into a safe place, not now, no.

It would sound like that to you I guess. Would it be ok if that lorry was full of people from Israel (yes I will bring that up again)? I don't need you to be happy, sad or anything I don't need your permission to chat on a forum.

I will ask "why us" if those people have gone through 12 other *safe* countries to get here, why wouldn't I or anybody else ask that?

 

[Gwadien]

It would sound like that to you I guess. Would it be ok if that lorry was full of people from Israel (yes I will bring that up again)? I don't need you to be happy, sad or anything I don't need your permission to chat on a forum.

I will ask "why us" if those people have gone through 12 other *safe* countries to get here, why wouldn't I or anybody else ask that?

I don't understand why you need my permission, I have literally 0 idea where you got that from, as I said before, I'm always open to debates, if I try and shut yours down, that's kind of part of a debate, no?

I've seen that a few times on here 'You disagree with me, and you keep disagreeing with me on this same subject, so therefore it's not a debate'

The main reason why I feel like we should be opening to Iraqis and Syrians in particular is because we are partially to blame for them being displaced, we wreaked havoc and left, I'm slightly less sympathetic to the Africans, because we have little input in there in the modern age, although I do think they should be help, on more of a humanitarian reason, as opposed to what is right.

To answer your question though, yes, I would happily have a lorry full of Israelis, to re-iterate a point, I am not anti-Semitic, I am pro-humanity, in the sense that because someone is Jewish doesn't mean he has more of a right to exist somewhere over someone that isn't Jewish, the concept of the creation of Israel was one when religion was at the forefront of politics, you wouldn't become President of the US if you weren't seen in church, now you can get away with pretending to be religious, times have moved on.

Would I allow Benjamin Netanyahu and all the other bat-shit crays in Israel who can see it from our perspective too, but chose to play on their citizens fear to justify their existence into the UK if they got blown up by a billion pissed off Muslims?

Nope.

 

[Tom]

I will ask "why us" if those people have gone through 12 other *safe* countries to get here, why wouldn't I or anybody else ask that?

The migrants who travel to Europe and attempt to get to the UK are very much in the minority. They probably speak the language and understand that this country is generally a pretty good place to live.

 

[Moriath]

The migrants who travel to Europe and attempt to get to the UK are very much in the minority. They probably speak the language and understand that this country is generally a pretty good place to live.

But why dont europe set up refugee camps in italy and greece and provide a fund or food and man power to feed and keep them safe in the countries they first get to. With the proposal of sending them back when its safe. Rather than having to integrate into any of the countries in europe. Provide safe haven yes. But make it clear its until its safe to go back.

 

[Tom]

But why dont europe set up refugee camps in italy and greece and provide a fund or food and man power to feed and keep them safe in the countries they first get to. With the proposal of sending them back when its safe. Rather than having to integrate into any of the countries in europe. Provide safe haven yes. But make it clear its until its safe to go back.

I've been to Italy and Greece, I wouldn't trust either of them with human rights.

 

[Moriath]

I've been to Italy and Greece, I wouldn't trust either of them with human rights.

But it would be a european agency setup. So it would be a multi state force to monitor and police the camps.

 

[Trem]

I don't understand why you need my permission, I have literally 0 idea where you got that from, as I said before, I'm always open to debates, if I try and shut yours down, that's kind of part of a debate, no?

I've seen that a few times on here 'You disagree with me, and you keep disagreeing with me on this same subject, so therefore it's not a debate'

The main reason why I feel like we should be opening to Iraqis and Syrians in particular is because we are partially to blame for them being displaced, we wreaked havoc and left, I'm slightly less sympathetic to the Africans, because we have little input in there in the modern age, although I do think they should be help, on more of a humanitarian reason, as opposed to what is right.

To answer your question though, yes, I would happily have a lorry full of Israelis, to re-iterate a point, I am not anti-Semitic, I am pro-humanity, in the sense that because someone is Jewish doesn't mean he has more of a right to exist somewhere over someone that isn't Jewish, the concept of the creation of Israel was one when religion was at the forefront of politics, you wouldn't become President of the US if you weren't seen in church, now you can get away with pretending to be religious, times have moved on.

Would I allow Benjamin Netanyahu and all the other bat-shit crays in Israel who can see it from our perspective too, but chose to play on their citizens fear to justify their existence into the UK if they got blown up by a billion pissed off Muslims?

Nope.

I got it from your "you would be happy for me to…. " comment.

I also agree that Britain, well no, that stings to say that because most of us knew what was going on, I also agree that Blair was part of fucking up that region more but we can't keep going backwards. We need to go forwards.

I don't know how, there isn't a charity I would trust nor a government. Red Cross would of sprung to mind until you read more about their corruptness (is that a word?).

We don't need to make here worse for them we need to make there better but it can't and will not ever happen.

You see what on here a few times, that I keep on disagreeing with you? Only on the one subject and that's because you made a silly comment about a nation of people then you go ahead and be compassionate about everyone else. It just feels a wee bit contradictory.

 

[Gwadien]

You see what on here a few times, that I keep on disagreeing with you? Only on the one subject and that's because you made a silly comment about a nation of people then you go ahead and be compassionate about everyone else. It just feels a wee bit contradictory.

Nah, I didn't mean you in particular, I meant in general, people seem very bad at debating on this forum - if someone puts a forward an idea, someone picks at that idea, and then they defend their idea, they're usually attacked with 'OMG WHY DO U ALWAYS HAVE TO BE RIGHT'

I'm compassionate about people, hence why I don't like this so called 'nation' of people killing people in their thousands.

 

[Tom]

But it would be a european agency setup. So it would be a multi state force to monitor and police the camps.

Now imagine trying to explain to people in Wales how they have to have a camp built to house 500,000 immigrants on their shore. Because that's what you'd expect of Greece.

 

[DaGaffer]

But why dont europe set up refugee camps in italy and greece and provide a fund or food and man power to feed and keep them safe in the countries they first get to. With the proposal of sending them back when its safe. Rather than having to integrate into any of the countries in europe. Provide safe haven yes. But make it clear its until its safe to go back.

What's the point? Refugee camps, unless absolutely necessary, are usually a terrible idea, better to disperse people as widely as possible to minimise the impact of refugees in any one area. Refugee camps should be a holding area before moving people on, not a final destination. The Syrian war has been going on for four years now, Afghanistan at least 12 depending on how you count (you could argue 35), you really think holding people in camps for that long is a good idea?

 

[fettoken]

Wow. This thread derailed pretty quick as well. No need for Toht here.

Saw the footage filmed from the shooters pov and also the cameramans angle. Pretty terrifying.

 

[Trem]

There is that but I don't think anyone has abused anyone like if toht was here. Gwadien and I generally disagree on certain things but I have absolutely no bad thoughts about the guy, it's all good, we have to talk like adults to get anywhere.

Now go fuck yourself piss spunk face