Tiddles - deadly

[Will]

This thread seems to have descended into "You bloody hippies, wher do you draw the line? You can't say? You bastards".

Not a very constructive arguement. Everyone has their own place they draw the line, but you can assume that large carnivores like lions are on the don't kill side.

Besides, carnivores don't tend to make very good eating. No idea why.

 

[throdgrain]

Its the great internet problem, no matter what heartfelt valid points are made, someone else can just disregard them and continue to talk crap.
If its no problem I wonder how Tom would like me doing a bit of hunting in his back garden with my air rifle ? No doubt theres something to shoot at.
Not that I would do that, as I at any rate am a reasonable human being.

 

[old.user4556]

As to my previous post, if it's then unacceptable to hunt lions (for meat or for fun) where do you draw the line on acceptable?

Swatting a fly,
Catching a fish,
Shooting a pigeon,
Shooting a lion,
Shooting an elephant,
Harpooning a whale,

At what point does it become unacceptable? I understand that if the species is endangered (elephants / whales) then they need protected from poachers. However, if animals are bred/managed for game (in this case with the Lion, or on a smaller level where lochs are stocked with bred fish for catching), why is it unacceptable?

Edit - just read Will's post, just let me have this "draw the line post" one last time .

G

 

[mank!]

if animals are bred/managed for game (in this case with the Lion)

Hold on a second, where was it proved that the Lion was bred for game? That was just someones theory.

 

[throdgrain]

i have no problem with people hunting for food, or shooting pests, ie rats etc that cause desiese.
As has been said ABOUT A HUNDRED TIMES Big G, the idea of these scum killing an animal like that, for pleasure, is disgusting.
Yes, fox hunting is disgusting too.

 

[leggy]

Hold on a second, where was it proved that the Lion was bred for game? That was just someones theory.

Exactly. Even then it doesn't make it acceptable. Oh we bred it to be killed therefore it has no right to live.

By game, I assume you mean "kill for fun" big g.

 

[Will]

Edit - just read Will's post, just let me have this "draw the line post" one last time .

G

I wasn't posting as a mod, just pointing out the daftness of that kind of post. I have opinons beyond "ban ffs", you know.

 

[Doh_boy]

I recon it's because large carnivores would be a lot more muscle than anything else. Also maybe it's something to do with eating meat? Most of the animals we eat are herbivores.


Also I'm having a problem with accepting plants are sentient, after studing them enough to figure how they work (very basically, i.e gcse science).*

Also to further re-enforce manks point, to kill an animal to eat is feeding a 'need'. To kill an animal to entertain yourself is feeding a 'want'. (yay for the primary school pyschology )


*I know there are some plants who are sentient, only one I can think of is plankton (which I'm pretty sure is kinda sentient, if very basically so AND is classed as fungi). But trees and grass and such, I don't think are.

 

[Mazling]

You just have to accept, that you have to eat. Deal with the problem in whatever way you like.
Personally I feel Tom has a point to make, he's just going a bit too deep for most here to bother with. Not that I agree with him or anything

 

[Xavier]

Swatting a fly,
Catching a fish,
Shooting a pigeon,
Shooting a lion,
Shooting an elephant,
Harpooning a whale,

Heck, if anyone thinks all of the above are acceptable, lets saddle up the Freddyshouse possee and shoot every cat, dog and other domestic pet in the state...

 

[Deadmanwalking]

But the point is we don't "NEED" to eat meat anymore. Someone earlier made a reference to cave men. They did need to eat meat for survival.

We are at the point now where we can live without the need for meat. And so killing the animal to eat becomes a "want".

Not to mention we breed animals purely to be killed for food anyway.

 

[Driwen]

I see your point, but it's pretty exaggerated. There is a world of difference between me having a steak for my dinner and going on a safari with the sole intention of shooting an animal dead for the thrill of it.

the difference being that there will be more joy from the dead cow than the dead lion, as you dont have to kill the cow 20 times to get 20 meals, but you will probably get the same joy out of the 20 meals as you get from killing 20 lions. However in both cases you kill an animal.
The other side of the coin is though that I am not completly sure that eating no meat/fish at all wont be bad for your health on long terms, as we dont have a plant eating body so allthough we think we get all the stuff we need without meat/fish we might be wrong as I do think there is a reason why we started eating meat.

Just dragged insects/trees into it all as everyone knows its reasonable ok to kill one or chop one down, as long as you dont unbalance nature by doing so. However you cant claim every sentient creature must not be killed soley for pleasure as then you contradict yourself as trees/insects are sentient at some low level.

And will Im not trying to flame anyone, just trying to show with the where is the line that except for fluffy factor killing an animal for your dinner or for the pleasure of the hunt, might not be all that different.

 

[mank!]

As to my previous post, if it's then unacceptable to hunt lions (for meat or for fun) where do you draw the line on acceptable?

Swatting a fly,
Catching a fish,
Shooting a pigeon,
Shooting a lion,
Shooting an elephant,
Harpooning a whale

If you're interested in where I draw the line, it's after fish and before pigeon. I can't really explain why I draw the line there, but I do eat fish...

 

[old.user4556]

Of course, I never said any of it was acceptable and it by no means reflects my personal opinion (which i haven't revealed). I was looking to prompt some thoughts.

G

 

[Cdr]

Heck, if anyone thinks all of the above are acceptable, lets saddle up the Freddyshouse possee and shoot every cat, dog and other domestic pet in the state...

Okay!

I'm game for that.

Bloody cats :|

 

[old.user4556]

But the point is we don't "NEED" to eat meat anymore. Someone earlier made a reference to cave men. They did need to eat meat for survival.

We are at the point now where we can live without the need for meat. And so killing the animal to eat becomes a "want".

Not to mention we breed animals purely to be killed for food anyway.

I'll have a steak over a salad any day.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

Okay!

I'm game for that.

Bloody cats :|

Alongside your rabbit!!! and those bloody mice.

I'll have a steak over a salad any day.

You mean you would WANT a steak over a salad

 

[old.user4556]

Well of course, peppered steak tastes WAY better than a damn salad

 

[Cdr]

Alongside your rabbit!!! and those bloody mice.

hehe damn right, killing the rabbit would mean a lot less work for me.

 

[mank!]

the difference being that there will be more joy from the dead cow than the dead lion, as you dont have to kill the cow 20 times to get 20 meals, but you will probably get the same joy out of the 20 meals as you get from killing 20 lions. However in both cases you kill an animal.
The other side of the coin is though that I am not completly sure that eating no meat/fish at all wont be bad for your health on long terms, as we dont have a plant eating body so allthough we think we get all the stuff we need without meat/fish we might be wrong as I do think there is a reason why we started eating meat.

IIRC it was proved that not eating meat isn't good for your diet in the short term or the long term, but we're discussing the morality of the issue and my choice to eat meat has nothing to do with health. I choose to eat meat because I like it, I could probably live without it pretty easily but I choose not to. I don't think this makes me a killer, and certainly not on a par with a Lion hunter as you seem to be trying to compare me to.

Just dragged insects/trees into it all as everyone knows its reasonable ok to kill one or chop one down, as long as you dont unbalance nature by doing so. However you cant claim every sentient creature must not be killed soley for pleasure as then you contradict yourself as trees/insects are sentient at some low level.

OK, let's say sentient to a certain level. I don't believe trees are sentient at all and insects may be at an incredibly basic level. Animals are all sentient at a different level, but it's where that level is that's the issue at discussion.

 

[old.user4556]

mank

 

[mank!]

Humans have managed ok on meat for the past few million years.

I said NOT eating meat, i.e. you need meat as a part of your diet just as you need green thingys. Unless I've misunderstood that.

 

[old.user4556]

Sorry mank, I completely miss-read that. My apologies.

 

[Driwen]

IIRC it was proved that not eating meat isn't good for your diet in the short term or the long term, but we're discussing the morality of the issue and my choice to eat meat has nothing to do with health. I choose to eat meat because I like it, I could probably live without it pretty easily but I choose not to. I don't think this makes me a killer, and certainly not on a par with a Lion hunter as you seem to be trying to compare me to.

you are not on par with a lion hunter as for first you dont put the animal you eat through suffering and stress and you get more often pleasure from one dead animal.
And the morality of killing an animal for food, is important wether or not you need it for your life. It is ok for animals to kill other animals as they need it to survive, so the same goes for us I would say so. If we need meat to be healthy than it is ok to kill an animal for its meat. Off course when you dont need it to survive than you do it for pleasure and yes I do think killing an animal just for fun is bad and killing it for food is ok. However morally there isnt that much difference.

OK, let's say sentient to a certain level. I don't believe trees are sentient at all and insects may be at an incredibly basic level. Animals are all sentient at a different level, but it's where that level is that's the issue at discussion.

trees sense where the sun shines the brightest and sense when winter is coming and when its spring, off course this is done due to a chemical process (I would think), but isnt that the same for our brains? Off course we sense more things, which does make us more sentient. And I dont have the answer to what is right and isnt as it is up to you to decide what is right and what isnt. However I tried to explain that there isnt a break suddenly between killing an animal for fun and for dinner, there is a sliding scale(atleast imo) and in the end the majority of the people in the country will decide where the line lies (atleast in democracy's ).

and big G humans probably only eat meat for a couple of hundred thousand years or less(us being from apes and most apes eating fruits/plants) besides that it is fruit/plants and meat and maybe just because catching meat is alot easier back then than fruits/plants, anyway this is way off topic .

 

[mank!]

you are not on par with a lion hunter as for first you dont put the animal you eat through suffering and stress and you get more often pleasure from one dead animal.
And the morality of killing an animal for food, is important wether or not you need it for your life. It is ok for animals to kill other animals as they need it to survive, so the same goes for us I would say so. If we need meat to be healthy than it is ok to kill an animal for its meat. Off course when you dont need it to survive than you do it for pleasure and yes I do think killing an animal just for fun is bad and killing it for food is ok. However morally there isnt that much difference.


trees sense where the sun shines the brightest and sense when winter is coming and when its spring, off course this is done due to a chemical process (I would think), but isnt that the same for our brains? Off course we sense more things, which does make us more sentient. And I dont have the answer to what is right and isnt as it is up to you to decide what is right and what isnt. However I tried to explain that there isnt a break suddenly between killing an animal for fun and for dinner, there is a sliding scale(atleast imo) and in the end the majority of the people in the country will decide where the line lies (atleast in democracy's ).

and big G humans probably only eat meat for a couple of hundred thousand years or less(us being from apes and most apes eating fruits/plants) besides that it is fruit/plants and meat and maybe just because catching meat is alot easier back then than fruits/plants, anyway this is way off topic .

I'd agree with most of that, except I do think that morally there is a difference between killing for food in a fairly humane manner - although there is no humane way of killing anything - and taking pot shots at an animal for no reason other than what someone deems fun. I agree that it's a fairly nautral thing to do for us to kill other animals to eat just as other animals kill other animals to eat, it's the food chain and we're at the top of it but I do admire people like DMW who are vegetarians and one day I may well become one myself. I think it's upto the individual to decide where they draw the line, although I think it's a general consensus that shooting pets is not fun.

 

[old.user4556]

I think humans are gonna end up wiping themselves out eventually.

 

[mank!]

So do I, but due to Nuclear war.

 

[Lazarus]

lets take the "conservative" theory to another level.

Lets, for arguments sake, consider what would happen is we DIDNT kill (slaughter) any more animals/fish

What would farmers do for a living?
What would fishermen do for a living?
What would simple villagers do when big cats decided to take on new territory as their own had been taken already

What would happen to all the cows/pigs/ etc who are now breeding like the proverbial rabbits.

What would happen to all the sea life (sharks/whales etc)

Sorry to be pedantic, but there is a "Circle of Life" to nature which should keep it in balance unfortunately that is fuxored now.


and DMW - not a flame question here, but do you wear leather shoes?

 

[leggy]

No he wears hessian slippers to match his leaf.

 

[Deadmanwalking]

*snip*

I havn't once said that eating meat etc is wrong. Infact i said the opposite, if you are that way inclined go for it.

I was merely making the point that people will get all militant about a fluffy animal or exotic animal getting killed. But will then very quickly put down their posters of protest to knock off for a bacon sarnie.

Oh and please for gods sake get some originality with the old "Leather shoes" jobbo. Which i may add i don't