Tiddles - deadly
- Thread starter Tom
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Panda On Smack
Can't get enough of FH
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mazling, maybe its coz the king of the potato people wont let you?
granny
Fledgling Freddie
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(warning, typical granny essay-length post probably approaching)
To my mind it's about inflicting suffering.
As humans we have self-awareness and the capacity to reason and to remember. We have a history not just a past.
Other animals have varying degress of these things from one extreme of similarity of the higher primates (eg. chimpanzees) all the way down to complete lack of any similarity in these things (single-celled organisms).
A crucial part of self-awareness is also the ability to empathize with others and this extends to animals - the closer another animal is to our own abilities, particularly our capacity to suffer the more likely we are to be upset by suffering inflicted on that animal. Cultural effects modify this so that, for instance, we see kittens as cute and so we can empathize more strongly with them so we're less tolerant of suffering inflicted on kittens.
Conversely we are strongly conditioned by our culture to not empathize, generally, with animals that are seen as livestock or pests - rats and pigs are generally rated far lower in terms of empathic targets that their actual intelligence and capacity for suffering would otherwise justify.
Obviously we all have different levels of willingness to tolerate suffering inflicted on animals - some are vegetarians, others hunt lions for sport. My view is that a willingness to inflict suffering on other animals is an illness and a product of the dehumanizing society that we live in. But I also eat meat, wear leather shoes and use products that are probably tested on animals.
Yes, I'd like there to be less suffering of animals in the world but I think you have to be clear what it is that causes the suffering - the suffering inflicted on animals in the name of sport is a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the vast sea of pain inflicted on animals in the name of profit.
The huge majority of animal cruelty in the world occurs in battery farming and product testing... and this is in a world where shortage of food is not a problem - we produce easily enough to feed the whole world, we just suck at getting it distributed fairly and have to dump millions of tons of excess food every year while people starve to death, pld us, and where we clearly have plenty of products already and really don't need to go testing any more shampoos and deodorants.
And of course all the animal suffering in world pales into insignificance when placed alongside the human suffering we inflict on each other as a species every fucking day. If we managed to come up with a way of running the world that stopped most of the human suffering (war, disease, famine, but mainly war) then I honestly believe that a massive reduction in animal suffering would follow pretty rapidly.
on me for anyone who actually ploughed through all of that 
To my mind it's about inflicting suffering.
As humans we have self-awareness and the capacity to reason and to remember. We have a history not just a past.
Other animals have varying degress of these things from one extreme of similarity of the higher primates (eg. chimpanzees) all the way down to complete lack of any similarity in these things (single-celled organisms).
A crucial part of self-awareness is also the ability to empathize with others and this extends to animals - the closer another animal is to our own abilities, particularly our capacity to suffer the more likely we are to be upset by suffering inflicted on that animal. Cultural effects modify this so that, for instance, we see kittens as cute and so we can empathize more strongly with them so we're less tolerant of suffering inflicted on kittens.
Conversely we are strongly conditioned by our culture to not empathize, generally, with animals that are seen as livestock or pests - rats and pigs are generally rated far lower in terms of empathic targets that their actual intelligence and capacity for suffering would otherwise justify.
Obviously we all have different levels of willingness to tolerate suffering inflicted on animals - some are vegetarians, others hunt lions for sport. My view is that a willingness to inflict suffering on other animals is an illness and a product of the dehumanizing society that we live in. But I also eat meat, wear leather shoes and use products that are probably tested on animals.
Yes, I'd like there to be less suffering of animals in the world but I think you have to be clear what it is that causes the suffering - the suffering inflicted on animals in the name of sport is a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the vast sea of pain inflicted on animals in the name of profit.
The huge majority of animal cruelty in the world occurs in battery farming and product testing... and this is in a world where shortage of food is not a problem - we produce easily enough to feed the whole world, we just suck at getting it distributed fairly and have to dump millions of tons of excess food every year while people starve to death, pld us, and where we clearly have plenty of products already and really don't need to go testing any more shampoos and deodorants.
And of course all the animal suffering in world pales into insignificance when placed alongside the human suffering we inflict on each other as a species every fucking day. If we managed to come up with a way of running the world that stopped most of the human suffering (war, disease, famine, but mainly war) then I honestly believe that a massive reduction in animal suffering would follow pretty rapidly.
on me for anyone who actually ploughed through all of that
granny
Fledgling Freddie
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xane said:I find it amazing the implication that vegetarianism is not cruel to animals, as opposed to meat-eating.
All food is grown on cultivated land nowdays, whether its vegetables or cattle, and that land has been taken away from the natural habitat of animals for the purposes of agriculture, this applies to everything from the dawn of civilization, from the homestead farmer in Africa to the big multinational agri-business.
We don't even need to stop at food, the same applies to tobacco (and dope), cotton, coffee and tea of all herbal kinds. Even the cities we build and the road inbetween them have vast environmental impacts that cause animal suffering at some level.
Agriculture is the biggest single environmental disaster driven by human need, all this stuff about animal cruelty is meaningless, it's just a line in sand drawn appropriate to political concerns. Hunting or a slaughterhouse is only a slightly elevated form of "cruelty" and very direct one, but animals can be killed in many indirect ways and it's cruel all the same.
Animals suffer and die when their habitat is taken from them, they eventually go extinct when it all dissappears, it might not be as quick and easy as a bullet in the head, but it kills all the same.
If you really want to think about it, just being born human is "being cruel to animals"
Xane, remember that humans are animals too. All that seperates us is our capacity for self-awareness and reasoning. What human society does to the world is, in essence, just as "natural" as anything else.
And yes, I know that's deliberately pedantic and inflammatory
I spose what I'm getting at (indirectly) is that clearly we need to either work out a way to reconcile our biology with our society and environment or we'll just carry on making a pig's arse of it all and leave ourselves with nothing as a species.
Panda On Smack
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Tom
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Don't forget how many animals are killed in the process of cultivating a crop. Theres a lot of bloodshed that is calmly ignored by vegetarians, mostly through ignorance, but partially for affordability.
We should all be growing vegetables in our gardens to be honest, its not difficult, and its a damn sight cheaper for everybody.
We should all be growing vegetables in our gardens to be honest, its not difficult, and its a damn sight cheaper for everybody.
granny
Fledgling Freddie
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Tom said:
Hmm, sorry but I disagree. Growing vegetables is time consuming. It's hard work. Personally I do a full-time job and don't want to also have to devote a large part of my spare time to growing food when we have 1000's of years of experience with farming and agriculture and a large number of people who's full-time job is growing exactly those vegetables, ie. farmers.
I also like being able to eat food that's not native to this climate, food that's out-of-season and food that's free from disease and, if I want to pay for organic produce, pesticides etc.
Tom, do you think that we should return to some kind of mythical "golden age" of self-reliance, pre-industrialisation, small-scale farming & "natural" living? Cos the truth is that pre-industrialisation life was damn hard, there was no "golden age". People died young and they died hungry. One of humanity's greatest acheivements is the freeing of the majority from the drudgery of simply existing. What we've ended up *doing* with that freedom (as a society I mean) is a different matter
Tom
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What I'm talking about isn't complete reliance on home produce, but devoting an area of your garden (say 20x4 feet) to a 3-4 rows of carrots, and 3-4 rows of potatoes. Its not hard, you cover the lot with some netting to keep the cats off, and thats about it. Its what I plan to do when I get around to doing somethign with the utter mess that is my back yard (not a mess through my fault, its just that there are other things on the house that need doing first).
Most people who do a bit of gardening find it very rewarding.
Most people who do a bit of gardening find it very rewarding.
nath
Fledgling Freddie
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Jup, Gorillas are veggies. They're apes too, not monkeys.. but they are incredibly dangerous.. and cute.
It's not what he is, it's what he will be... A coooooold blooded killer! >:|
It's not what he is, it's what he will be... A coooooold blooded killer! >:|
Tom
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OK, I'm not normally one to resuscitate old threads, but this surely deserves a mention in this thread:
http://www.live-shot.com/
You know the extent of lazyness in the US - drive through banks, drive through 7-11s etc? How about sitting at your computer shooting pretend bunnies - except they're real bunnies. This is what they're proposing to do, although right now I think its limited to shooting paper bunnies and cardboard wabbits.
I have no problems with the morals of hunting provided its done safely and with regard for the environment, but this is taking the piss a bit?
http://www.live-shot.com/
You know the extent of lazyness in the US - drive through banks, drive through 7-11s etc? How about sitting at your computer shooting pretend bunnies - except they're real bunnies. This is what they're proposing to do, although right now I think its limited to shooting paper bunnies and cardboard wabbits.
I have no problems with the morals of hunting provided its done safely and with regard for the environment, but this is taking the piss a bit?
