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[Scouse]

He is a complete dick, when there are many reasons it doesn't matter which one you pick.

Seems to me there's really only one.

Should we discount the opinions of Brexiters - especially the ones who still can't see the shit they've caused? Denounce them all as dicks? Or do we act like adults, and realise people have differing opinions on many things?

 

[Wij]

That's weasle really.

He's clearly not an antisemite. There's zero case to be made - it's mud slinging shit. And if we're talking case to be made - he was taken to court in Germany, which has the strongest laws in EU on this - and it was thrown out because he's clearly not an antisemite and the Israel lobby hasn't a fucking leg to stand on with it.

But shit sticks. The fact that he'll take a lifetime of serious knock for the Palestinian cause - which is a cause akin to standing up for black people in South Africa - means that I'm happy to give him a pass elsewhere.

Obama himself said expecting people to be "angels" before we listen to them isn't a nice world to create/live in. You can always point at something someone thinks if you want to ignore their message - and his message, as an artist, is staunchly anti-facist.

It's not a weasel. I'm not accusing him of being an antisemite. I'm accusing him of making excuses for the worst regimes in the world and blaming their victims for their own deaths.

You can't just say 'because something you never accused him of might not be true, the things you did accuse him of don't matter'.

 

[Scouse]

It's not a weasel. I'm not accusing him of being an antisemite. I'm accusing him of making excuses for the worst regimes in the world and blaming their victims for their own deaths.

You can't just say 'because something you never accused him of might not be true, the things you did accuse him of don't matter'.

So, are you conceding that there's NOT "a case to be made" for antisemitism, given a case was made and thrown out?

lol - he doesn't really help himself there. Comes across as a frothing, nasty shit.

Straw manning really.

Just watched the first four minutes of that. Where is the straw man? He's being hounded around the planet for being an antisemite. He's been to court in Germany where they tried to cancel his show for glorifying the Nazi's. That MP has tried to cancel the gig in Manchester that I'm going to this weekend - because he's supposedly an antisemite?

I'd be fucking angry myself. But the question is: where's the "straw man" there @Wij?

 

[Bodhi]

Seems to me there's really only one.

Should we discount the opinions of Brexiters - especially the ones who still can't see the shit they've caused? Denounce them all as dicks? Or do we act like adults, and realise people have differing opinions on many things?

Seems a bit of a stretch to compare people voting on membership of a political union and a has-been musician simping for some of the worst people on the planet.

 

[Scouse]

Seems a bit of a stretch to compare people voting on membership of a political union and a has-been musician simping for some of the worst people on the planet.

Where's the line drawn between "can dismiss as a total cunt" and "have to listen to their idiotic twaddle" then Bhods old bean?

Can you define it please - so I know who to bin off for holding a view, and the one I still have to think is sort of OK?

 

[Scouse]

Got to ten mins of that vid @Wij. Show me where he's frothing, straw manning, generally acting like a man who's been anything other than fucked over after a lifetime of anti-facist campaigning.

Please to be pointing it out.

 

[Wij]

So, are you conceding that there's NOT "a case to be made" for antisemitism, given a case was made and thrown out?



Just watched the first four minutes of that. Where is the straw man? He's being hounded around the planet for being an antisemite. He's been to court in Germany where they tried to cancel his show for glorifying the Nazi's. That MP has tried to cancel the gig in Manchester that I'm going to this weekend - because he's supposedly an antisemite?

I'd be fucking angry myself. But the question is: where's the "straw man" there @Wij?

Some people are calling him an antisemite. Many more are calling him a cunt for other reasons. Concentrating on the antisemitism and declaring himself innocent is absolutely straw manning.

 

[Bodhi]

Where's the line drawn between "can dismiss as a total cunt" and "have to listen to their idiotic twaddle" then Bhods old bean?

Can you define it please - so I know who to bin off for holding a view, and the one I still have to think is sort of OK?

You can listen to anyone's opinion you like just don't be surprised when you have to defend their extremist views as you are here.

 

[Scouse]

Some people are calling him an antisemite. Many more are calling him a cunt for other reasons. Concentrating on the antisemitism and declaring himself innocent is absolutely straw manning.

Weasel.

Antisemitism is the topic and the narrative - it's what the press is publishing about him, it's what he was prosecuted in Germany for, it's what the ex-Tory now-Labour MP has been trying to get his gig in Manchester cancelled for. You can find other shit to talk about but in the "checklist of nasty" we've something we can tick off the list.

Unless you want to believe he's an antisemite, because it somehow makes you feel warm and fuzzy?

I get that you're totally obsessed with Russia, but there are other things going on in the world y'know...

 

[Scouse]

To be clear, I'm not calling you a weasel @Wij. But you have weaseling tendencies - you don't ever answer straight questions and instead either deflect or widen an argument.

He's clearly not an antisemite.

 

[Tom]

Some people are calling him an antisemite. Many more are calling him a cunt for other reasons. Concentrating on the antisemitism and declaring himself innocent is absolutely straw manning.

I mean yes he's a bit of a cunt, he always has been. The court case regarding who could use the Pink Floyd name is a good example. But I don't agree with your "many more" statement - all the attention recently has been on alleged antisemitism. Most of the people criticising him have absolutely no idea what they're talking about, doing stupid things like confusing the Pink character with Waters.

 

[Wij]

I'm not calling him an antisemite or confusing his stage show with actual Nazism. But I'm still calling him a cunt for what he says about pretty much every dictator (not just Putin) and his absolute lack of empathy for their victims.

 

[Wij]

To be clear, I'm not calling you a weasel @Wij. But you have weaseling tendencies - you don't ever answer straight questions and instead either deflect or widen an argument.

He's clearly not an antisemite.

Which wasn't my argument. Hence I'm not deflecting.

 

[Scouse]

Which wasn't my argument. Hence I'm not deflecting.

I asked directly: "So, are you conceding that there's NOT "a case to be made" for antisemitism, given a case was made and thrown out?"...

We could actually make progress on these discussions instead of going around in circles you know


Edit: BTW @Wij - I've just finished that video. There's absolutely no way you watched that before you passed judgment on it.

 

[Wij]

I asked directly: "So, are you conceding that there's NOT "a case to be made" for antisemitism, given a case was made and thrown out?"...

We could actually make progress on these discussions instead of going around in circles you know


Edit: BTW @Wij - I've just finished that video. There's absolutely no way you watched that before you passed judgment on it.

I specifically said there was a case to be made but it would never be conclusive because people have different definitions and I was not making a judgement on the matter. You could have just read that.

 

[Embattle]

I would ask how the honours list could become less honourable but then we've still probably got some from silly Lizz to come.

The mystery of Boris Johnson’s honours list: why is Sunak putting up with it?

There is no requirement to give the former PM this privilege and the fallout is likely to linger

www.theguardian.com

 

[Scouse]

I specifically said there was a case to be made but it would never be conclusive because people have different definitions

Sorry, that's weasle.

Is there anything he's ever done or ever said that makes him antisemitic?

You saying "there's a case to be made" leaves that door open, which is a shitty thing to do. He's clearly anti-Israel. If you think being anti-Israel is antisemitic you should state your position clearly Wij. As it is, you're always opaque on what you actually think on this subject. Not just on Waters, but when we've discussed it the past too.

Leave Roger out of this - do you think criticising Israel is antisemitic?

 

[Wij]

Sorry, that's weasle.

Is there anything he's ever done or ever said that makes him antisemitic?

You saying "there's a case to be made" leaves that door open, which is a shitty thing to do. He's clearly anti-Israel. If you think being anti-Israel is antisemitic you should state your position clearly Wij. As it is, you're always opaque on what you actually think on this subject. Not just on Waters, but when we've discussed it the past too.

Leave Roger out of this - do you think criticising Israel is antisemitic?

You're trying to put words in my mouth. I can bet full well when he hears a Jew criticising him he's thinking 'that's not Jew talk, that's Zionist talk' and therefore justifying his loathing cos it's not Jews, it's Zionists. And I'm not a big fan of many of the actions of the current Israeli government. Some may call that antisemitic, because he always finds a reason to despise those Jews he doesn't like which he can tell himself isn't because they are Jews, others may not call it that because they agree with his reasoning.

I'm not calling it antisemitic because I don't need to to think he's a cunt. Others may choose to do so. That's up to them. Argue with them, not me.

 

[Wij]

I mean even Tom thinks he's a cunt, although he likes his music, which is totally fine. I'm not telling you not to like his music. Just don't tell me he has good views on the victims of modern dictators.

 

[Scouse]

You're trying to put words in my mouth.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - I'm just asking you a fucking question!

Is criticising Israel antisemitic or not! I say not! What do you say?!

Why is it not just you, but quite a few people, won't just be honest about what they fucking think? It's easy - say what you think. It makes for good and healthy discussion. As it is you're weaseling like I'm trying to pin something on you.

What are you afraid of? It's just fucking me. We've been talking on this forum for over twenty years.

🤷

 

[Wij]

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - I'm just asking you a fucking question!

Is criticising Israel antisemitic or not! I say not! What do you say?!

Why is it not just you, but quite a few people, won't just be honest about what they fucking think? It's easy - say what you think. It makes for good and healthy discussion. As it is you're weaseling like I'm trying to pin something on you.

What are you afraid of? It's just fucking me. We've been talking on this forum for over twenty years.

🤷

Because, sometimes criticising Israel is just a cover for antisemitism, and sometimes it isn't. This is not difficult.

 

[MYstIC G]

You know, I thought I missed this sort of "one -v- scouse" banter when the site was having problems, turns out I didn't.

Any chance for the next 20 years you two can just PM each other this shit?

 

[Wij]

You know, I thought I missed this sort of "one -v- scouse" banter when the site was having problems, turns out I didn't.

Any chance for the next 20 years you two can just PM each other this shit?

 

[Scouse]

Because, sometimes criticising Israel is just a cover for antisemitism, and sometimes it isn't. This is not difficult.

The question isn't "do you secretly hate jews". It's "is it OK to criticise Israel".

If you deny the ability to criticise a state because you think some people might secretly hate jews that's utterly fucked up and gives cover for that state to commit atrocities.

So, I'll ask again, and caveat - can you criticise Israel if you're not a secret jew-hater?

And a second question - should you silence all criticism just in case someone secretly hates jews, but you can't prove it?

 

[old.Osy]

The question isn't "do you secretly hate jews". It's "is it OK to criticise Israel".

If you deny the ability to criticise a state because you think some people might secretly hate jews that's utterly fucked up and gives cover for that state to commit atrocities.

So, I'll ask again, and caveat - can you criticise Israel if you're not a secret jew-hater?

And a second question - should you silence all criticism just in case someone secretly hates jews, but you can't prove it?

Aight, pipe it down. Dude's a moronic old fart, most people see that - don't muddy the point, and leave it at that.

 

[Bodhi]

The question isn't "do you secretly hate jews". It's "is it OK to criticise Israel".

If you deny the ability to criticise a state because you think some people might secretly hate jews that's utterly fucked up and gives cover for that state to commit atrocities.

So, I'll ask again, and caveat - can you criticise Israel if you're not a secret jew-hater?

And a second question - should you silence all criticism just in case someone secretly hates jews, but you can't prove it?

For me it depends - if you're criticising Israel based on recent policy then its not antisemitic. If you're criticising Israel just for being then it is massively antisemitic, as I'm not sure why other religions get their own homeland but Jewish people have to defend theirs. Waters was very much walking the line between the two - and his comment about politicians "leaders" in Tel Aviv ain't great, let's be honest.

But then, unlike a few Israel critics I've actually been there, and I didn't see this authoritarian hell hole a lot have pointed out - I just saw people of a few different religions living together but being slightly paranoid about the rockets that kept getting sent their way.

/Shrug

 

[Wij]

But on Tuesday night during his London performance, Waters claimed: “You [Wakeford] were making s*** up because you were told to by your masters in the Foreign Office in Tel Aviv because of this hate.

Claiming that politicians in other countries get their orders from Israel could well be considered antisemitic by many people. It’s not dissimilar to Jews secretly controlling the world. I’m not going to use the a word but I can see why some people might.

Conspiracy theories are never that far away from the demonisation of Jews.

Anyway, that’s my view. He’s a cunt either way.

 

[Scouse]

Anyway, that’s my view. He’s a cunt either way.

Sorry. What, exactly, is your view again?

 

[Wij]

Because, sometimes criticising Israel is just a cover for antisemitism, and sometimes it isn't. This is not difficult.

This. It's just a few posts up.

 

[Scouse]

This. It's just a few posts up.

That's not a view. That's you not comitting to anything, as usual.

For me, it actually looks like you believe people shouldn't be able to criticise Israel, just in case it's antisemitic, but you're scared to say it for some reason.

But I can't really tell - because you won't clearly state your position.