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[Scouse]

Yep, and I can imagine a Venn diagram of those against a national Id card and those against refugees is a single circle

I'm against national ID cards totally. I'm for refugees.

But we have national insurance cards. You're your NI number, not a citizen

 

[Job]

Cant reply..I said kids are fat and deebs restricted my access again.

 

[Raven]

Tip of the day. Stop being a cockwomble.

 

[Ormorof]

I'm against national ID cards totally. I'm for refugees.

But we have national insurance cards. You're your NI number, not a citizen

Isnt it basically the same thing? Here to be able to do almost anything you need a social security number, you can get an ID card with that printed on it if you like, its also printed on passport. Because its used for so many things its not a secret number like in the US, and doing anything with not requires either an ID check in person or some sort of digital authorization (PSD2 and 3DS2 has been a doddle for banks here in that sense as they already have had it for years)

I have yet to see many negative aspects to it, it reduces hidden economy, makes dealing with government systems easier

My only problem with it is that the gov here assumes rest of world has same system so sometimes paperwork from abroad doesn't match up, but theres a pretty simple process for that (took me ~10 minutes to get access to a magistrate to sort it out last time)

 

[Yoni]

I love having an ID fixed to everything - it is amazing how much easier it makes all personal admin. I do not understand why people are afraid of this it is truely awesome. NI number is pointless... in both NL and SE it is very difficult to function without one - including not being able to get a local bank account, not being able to purchase many items online. It has the added benefit of not having to have many passwords as your PN is your login for so much and can only be validated by using Bank ID - this is a programme that sits on your phone that ratifies that you are really you.

I can imagine (no proof) that ID theft is significantly harder in NL and SE than it is in UK | US.

 

[Scouse]

I do not understand why people are afraid of this ...... in both NL and SE it is very difficult to function without one

I can imagine (no proof) that ID theft is significantly harder in NL and SE than it is in UK | US.

It may well be. But that is in and of itself a real issue. If you're a victim of identity theft the more trusted the identity source the harsher the consequences when they're incorrect.

If you look at the form of our government (particularly the Home Office) then I'm reluctant for a national identity - what does that give us other than a bit of convenience?

 

[DaGaffer]

I do not understand why people are afraid of this it is truely awesome.

Seriously? Where have you been? This is the UK we're talking about; of course it would be abused. British governments can't help themselves, irrespective of party, and we all know it.

Interestingly, the same attitude has bled over into Ireland, where there's a deep suspicion about government overreach in any form. We actually have a social security card, which includes a photo and your address, but its specifically precluded as a form of ID, which is truly bizarre.

 

[Yoni]

Where have I been? Not living in the UK for 12 years oO? I see more benefits and productivity improvements freeing up money that can be used elsewhere. There are so many inefficiencies in the UK in everything from taxation, through to doctors, personal debt issues, issues with being able to claim benefits etc

 

[DaGaffer]

Where have I been? Not living in the UK for 12 years oO? I see more benefits and productivity improvements freeing up money that can be used elsewhere. There are so many inefficiencies in the UK in everything from taxation, through to doctors, personal debt issues, issues with being able to claim benefits etc

First thing the Tories would do is mine the fuck out of your data, then flog it to the highest bidder, and probably cut benefits at the same time, just on general principles.

NB. In relation to taxation, the UK are middling, there are plenty of tax systems in countries with national ID schemes that are much worse than the UK (pretty much anywhere in southern Europe for example).

International Tax Competitiveness Index 2023

A well-structured tax code is easy for taxpayers to comply with and can promote economic development while raising sufficient revenue for a government’s priorities.

taxfoundation.org

 

[Scouse]

If our countries ever turn to outright facism then the stronger the ID the harsher the jackboot.

People discount this in their thinking yet whine incessantly about Trump, thinking he's the worst that can happen when, relatively, he's a bed of roses.

You need strong ID around your banking services. Benefit fraud costs are relatively trivial and NOT a function of identifying the wrong people.

Stronger ID has a lot of down for very little upside.

 

[dysfunction]

If our countries ever turn to outright facism then the stronger the ID the harsher the jackboot.

People discount this in their thinking yet whine incessantly about Trump, thinking he's the worst that can happen when, relatively, he's a bed of roses.

You need strong ID around your banking services. Benefit fraud costs are relatively trivial and NOT a function of identifying the wrong people.

Stronger ID has a lot of down for very little upside.

If fascism was really strong then they would just force it on you anyway...so it's not a very good argument.
I don't see an issue with having a proper ID system at all. You already have passport, driving licence etc.

 

[Scouse]

If fascism was really strong then they would just force it on you anyway...so it's not a very good argument.
I don't see an issue with having a proper ID system at all. You already have passport, driving licence etc.

There's a reason germany outlawed centralised strong information sources identifying it's citizens die to how it was used by one of it's governments.

And yes. We do have passports and driving licences don't we.

Use them.

 

[dysfunction]

There's a reason germany outlawed centralised strong information sources identifying it's citizens die to how it was used by one of it's governments.

And yes. We do have passports and driving licences don't we.

Use them.

My point is that could be overturned if the government chose to and could go back to using the same hard ball tactics they had before.

And you can just use your passport or driving licence. You have to have other proofs of ID like 3 months of bills and the name of the last book you got from the library.
To me it's silly and these fears you have are not mitigated in any way.

 

[Overdriven]

I'm actually all for some sort of national biometric RFID system, one of the few extreme things I'm for.

who you are, where you were born etc etc. Make driving licenses redundant, make N.I. cards redundant, hopefully make passports redundant.. Would be much easier.

 

[Yoni]

I just think that in Britain you don't like them because you have this false idea of how free you are and the idea of someone asking you for identification to you is "not" ok. I live in a country where you can not pick up your post without your ID and they are moving more and more to Bank ID rather than ID cards to do this... I like that only I can purchase on my behalf due to signature by bank id. I like that when I get my tax form it is prefilled and I just need to check the info is correct and send it back. I also like that when I get my tax refunds they take no longer than 40 days after the deadline. I love the fact that if i need medical help I can go anywhere and they will have access to my medical information negating the necessity to know it of by heart. If I need a prescription I can go to any chemist in Sweden to pick it up. As for transfer of my data - GDPR although to live in Sweden you have to accept a level of transparency although thanks to GDPR it is no longer possible to put in my name and be able to find my address which was the case when I first came here. I guess that in the UK you will no longer be protected by GDPR and this is potentially an issue but having lived somewhere where someone can google you and find out where you live, telephone number and earnings I can assure you there is not alot to be afraid of and generally citizens do not spend all day find out how much associates and coworkers earn.....If I remember correctly you can still ring up the tax office here and request the previous years earnings of an individual if you have their PN - but to be honest life is too short..

 

[Job]

Jesus christ on a bike.
In Star Trek all the assimiated borg thought it was just fucking great as well.
With more and more councils running algorithms to determine if you are in need of benefits, this computer says no dystopia we are building and you all write off as tin hat is now going to come together with an inevitable personal digital ID to ensnare us in a world where we check in everywhere we go and a 'sorry sir, you have lost your dining rights due to poor earnings rating from your personal account', mixed with follwing the wrong youtubers

This is already a reality in china.

We need to nip this shit in the bud

 

[Yoni]

Seriously you are an idiot that is not how it works oO

 

[dysfunction]

Jesus christ on a bike.
In Star Trek all the assimiated borg thought it was just fucking great as well.
With more and more councils running algorithms to determine if you are in need of benefits, this computer says no dystopia we are building and you all write off as tin hat is now going to come together with an inevitable personal digital ID to ensnare us in a world where we check in everywhere we go and a 'sorry sir, you have lost your dining rights due to poor earnings rating from your personal account', mixed with follwing the wrong youtubers

This is already a reality in china.

We need to nip this shit in the bud

We are not in Star Trek. Just making sure you are aware. Also we are not the 70's.

 

[Scouse]

Seriously you are an idiot that is not how it works oO

It *could* work like that - and does in china.

There are few certainties in life but one is: you give government the tools of oppression eventually they will use them.


The convenience you describe ain't worth it and canbe achieved through other means.

 

[dysfunction]

It *could* work like that - and does in china.

There are few certainties in life but one is: you give government the tools of oppression eventually they will use them.


The convenience you describe ain't worth it and canbe achieved through other means.

I think you dropped your tin foil hat.

 

[Scouse]

I think you dropped your tin foil hat.

I think your blind trust make you an easy victim.

It's not tin foil hattery to point out what already happens elsewhere in the world andwhat has already happened in history.

In that context, that real-world, real-life context, the onus is on you to explain why we're magically protected from those risks, when others aren't.

Job's hysteria is amusing but it's not without foundation or substance.

 

[dysfunction]

I think your blind trust make you an easy victim.

It's not tin foil hattery to point out what already happens elsewhere in the world andwhat has already happened in history.

In that context, that real-world, real-life context, the onus is on you to explain why we're magically protected from those risks, when others aren't.

Job's hysteria is amusing but it's not without foundation or substance.

And yet there are numerous countries around the world with ID cards that are not acting like China.
China is more of a dictatorship than a democracy.

Tell me how you would stop a China style government that was elected in this country from introducing those same measures?
They could quite easily introduce that within months and you would be powerless to stop it.

If it's going to happen it will. Having an ID doesn't mean we will go down the route China has.

 

[Scouse]

And yet there are numerous countries around the world with ID cards that are not acting like China.

You're missing the point. It's essentially a risk management question.

Democracy is not a given, even in the west. Give our governments the tools to undermine it and you can very easily start a slow (or rapid) slide in an undesireable direction.

This isn't hypothetical btw. There are examples.


Anyway - we did ID to death in the early 2000's and if anything the arguments against are stronger now than they were then, so I ain't going to rehash it all now

 

[Embattle]

I believe I said a while ago I would love a proper form of smart ID, I think I also stated I would like it linked to quite a few records such as hospital records etc.

 

[Raven]

Jesus christ on a bike.
In Star Trek all the assimiated borg thought it was just fucking great as well.
With more and more councils running algorithms to determine if you are in need of benefits, this computer says no dystopia we are building and you all write off as tin hat is now going to come together with an inevitable personal digital ID to ensnare us in a world where we check in everywhere we go and a 'sorry sir, you have lost your dining rights due to poor earnings rating from your personal account', mixed with follwing the wrong youtubers

This is already a reality in china.

We need to nip this shit in the bud

We don't live in China.

 

[Scouse]

We don't live in China.

True. But the extant threats of total surveillance and hard identity still apply in so-called democratic countries

 

[BloodOmen]

View attachment a2WA6zZ_460svvp9.webm

 

[Overdriven]

Wtf did I just watch

 

[dysfunction]

Wtf did I just watch

Blood Omen always posts some weird meme picture or video. Best just to gloss over it really

 

[Raven]

@Job

Political correctness, gone mad!