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[Moriath]

Stop biting!
But it's because of this sort of post:

In any way?

They were woefully untrained, unequipped etc. etc. And they're not accountable for the tragedy - but if they'd had the gumption to think rather than blindly follow the orders of higher-ups (because it's my job, innit) then they'd have told the residents to evacuate earlier.

Building regs and leadership. They're the big two. But are we really saying that firefighters are so thick that they can't see what's going off over a long(ish) period of time and say to people "get out, who cares what 'official policy' is" - and that makes them totally blameless?

Maybe we are?

Edit:

That's the jobsworth point. I don't accept it. It's like working class people can't be shit at their jobs. (It may be not entirely their fault because of training deficiencies etc. - but "following procedure" is a piss poor excuse for a lot of things).


Edit edit: Lesson here is:

If your building is on fire - GET OUT

Thing is those buildings were supposed to be each flat being its own fire cell so things wouldnt spread. So the advice to stay in the contained supposed safe zone was usually the best one if you cant get down 20 floors to the street safely. And being on the top floor you dont know if its safe 15 floors down.

that would have been ok if the fabric of the building wasnt flamable.

 

[Scouse]

A global problem that bought down major american banks is a tory only issue. Hahahahahaha

The market liberalisations in the UK and US were driven under the Thatcher and Regan administrations.

This is entirely uncontroversial.

 

[Moriath]

The market liberalisations in the UK and US were driven under the Thatcher and Regan administrations.

This is entirely uncontroversial.

So not tory to blame entirely it took other countries too? Cool. Glad we agree.

 

[Gwadien]

So not tory to blame entirely it took other countries too? Cool. Glad we agree.

But then you can also say that every other country took advantage of the boom and started spending way beyond their means, not just the Labour party.

Cool.

Glad we agree.

 

[Moriath]

But then you can also say that every other country took advantage of the boom and started spending way beyond their means, not just the Labour party.

Cool.

Glad we agree.

Yes but their spending didnt affect the uk purse directly. But labours did.

 

[Job]

The Mail has posted this article..

How 59 senior fire officers sat through presentation on tower block blazes in 2016 | Daily Mail Online

 

[Scouse]

So not tory to blame entirely it took other countries too? Cool. Glad we agree.

If those market liberalisations weren't pressed ahead with - by Thatcher - then it couldn't have happened in the UK.

 

[Scouse]

The Mail has posted this article..

How 59 senior fire officers sat through presentation on tower block blazes in 2016 | Daily Mail Online

Notice that shitrag isn't going on at the ultimate source of the problem - the rich people who clad the building against building regs.

 

[dysfunction]

The Mail has posted this article..

How 59 senior fire officers sat through presentation on tower block blazes in 2016 | Daily Mail Online

Yes we know you hate the fire service

 

[Moriath]

If those market liberalisations weren't pressed ahead with - by Thatcher - then it couldn't have happened in the UK.

The knock on from international banks investing heavily in fanny mac and whateve the other were. Taking on toxic loans in much bigger quantities in the usa than they did here. Meant that everywhere was affected. But whatever. The torys fault for everything i know. They privatised the railways so your trains late its the torys fault. Etc etc. And New labour was tory lite anyway.

 

[Moriath]

Notice that shitrag isn't going on at the ultimate source of the problem - the rich people who clad the building against building regs.

The fire service were cleaning up the mess from the rich dudes who sold the cladding. If that wasnt there there would have been no disaster

 

[Gwadien]

The fire service were cleaning up the mess from the rich dudes who sold the cladding. If that wasnt there there would have been no disaster

See, I personally think that there's little responsibility with the manufacturers; if this happened in someones private home, the blame would have gone to the home owner; why would they buy such shit and shoddy stuff? So therefore the responsibility goes to the people that wanted to refurb the tower blocks.

 

[Scouse]

The knock on from international banks investing heavily in fanny mac and whateve the other were. Taking on toxic loans in much bigger quantities in the usa than they did here. Meant that everywhere was affected. But whatever. The torys fault for everything i know. They privatised the railways so your trains late its the torys fault. Etc etc. And New labour was tory lite anyway.

That "contagion" of bad debts was only possible because of Tory market reforms from the 80's.

Sorry @Moriath - I've no love for *any* political party - and rail/buses yadda whiny deflective shite you've brought up has no bearing om this. The foundations of the crash (as it affected the UK) are 100% at their door.

The rest we can discuss if you like, but dems the facts.

 

[Scouse]

See, I personally think that there's little responsibility with the manufacturers; if this happened in someones private home, the blame would have gone to the home owner; why would they buy such shit and shoddy stuff? So therefore the responsibility goes to the people that wanted to refurb the tower blocks.

Ultimately the dudes who owned the block were responsible.

However - I hold gvt. responsible for allowing sale of non-compliant cladding.

 

[Job]

The fire service were cleaning up the mess from the rich dudes who sold the cladding. If that wasnt there there would have been no disaster

The problem is that even correct standard cladding has the potential to drastically alter the way a building burns...it was pretty well ignored, why is everyone so keen to defend the senior management just because its the fire service?
You are actually letting the actions of the heroic firefighters defend the overpaid idiots at the top.

 

[dysfunction]

Ultimately the dudes who owned the block were responsible.

However - I hold gvt. responsible for allowing sale of non-compliant cladding.

Not just the selling of it but the fact it can be manufactured

 

[Scouse]

Not just the selling of it but the fact it can be manufactured

If in UK ofc.

 

[Gwadien]

The problem is that even correct standard cladding has the potential to drastically alter the way a building burns...it was pretty well ignored, why is everyone so keen to defend the senior management just because its the fire service?
You are actually letting the actions of the heroic firefighters defend the overpaid idiots at the top.

Because those overpaid idiots at the top have been saying for years that they don't get enough funding to be an adequate service.

Then when shit hits the fan, you want to blame them.

It's a bit like with education; schools have been saying they're not getting enough funding for a long time, the consequences of which aren't immediate, they'll start to rear their heads in 7-8 years time.

 

[Job]

Ha Morrisey has been outcast.

Not going along with program.
The light has gone out – it's time we stopped giving Morrissey attention

 

[Job]

Bit unfortunate that the one black guy in Crosby on that day was a violent rapist.

Any distinguishing features...

He was black.

Got him.

Violent rapist who prowled beach told woman "I wanted to have sex with you"

And the other black guy was also a rapist.
Police 'welcome' eight-year jail sentence for rapist

 

[Wij]

Ha Morrisey has been outcast.

Not going along with program.
The light has gone out – it's time we stopped giving Morrissey attention

He is a colossal twat though.

 

[Scouse]

Bit unfortunate that the one black guy in Crosby on that day was a violent rapist.

Any distinguishing features...

He was black.

Got him.

Violent rapist who prowled beach told woman "I wanted to have sex with you"

And the other black guy was also a rapist.
Police 'welcome' eight-year jail sentence for rapist

Alternatively. (Read the whole thing)

 

[Hawkwind]

I remember a musician and singer in the 90's called Morrisey, not paid him any attention for at least 20 years.

 

[Job]

Well obviously, but if youre going to have 'representatives' of a minority group in an almost exclusively white area it would help if two of them werent rapists.
Just unfortunate, but white people here are much more concerned about white scally underaged violent drug dealers taking over street corners.

 

[Scouse]

Well obviously, .

If it's obvious, why bring it up the way you did?

The only thing it can do is make you look like a racist cunt.


*cough*

 

[Job]

Its boring your way.

 

[Job]

I remember a musician and singer in the 90's called Morrisey, not paid him any attention for at least 20 years.

Because hes a conservative...like half of this forum.

 

[Scouse]

Its boring your way.

But it's right and not at all cuntish.

Your "way" leads to idiots comitting violent racist crimes.

 

[Wij]

Because hes a conservative...like half of this forum.

Since when did small-c conservative get changed to mean racist?

 

[Scouse]

Since when did small-c conservative get changed to mean racist?

Hitler was right wing, right wing = conservative in @Job's mind.

Therefore Hitler was a Tory.