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[Moriath]

This why I did salute winston Churchill earlier in the thread. But it got ignored

 

[caLLous]

Why today though? He died 50 years and 6 days ago, it seems an odd anniversary.

 

[Raven]

His funeral.

 

[caLLous]

Oh yeah, of course. I've not turned the TV on today so was unaware. The news channels aren't making as much fuss about it as expected.

 

[Moriath]

Oh yeah, of course. I've not turned the TV on today so was unaware. The news channels aren't making as much fuss about it as expected.

Yup they recreated his funeral procession on the Thames.

Did you see the program where the cranes dipped. The guys doing that hated him cause of their class and unions etc but we're paid to do it.

 

[Job]

Ha..poor old Germans, they have no one to honour, it just reminds them of their inherited shame and guilt...that must suck.
And don't patronise me that all is forgiven because it's a whole new generation, us Brits won' trust them for 200 years.

 

[old.user4556]

I know, every time I turn the key in my BMW I fear the doors will lock and the car with fill with cyanide. Pesky untrustworthy Krauts.

 

[Job]

How apt.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_van

 

[caLLous]

 

[Edmond]

@Job are you trying to incite German hatred here?

You know the Nazi's hated gays and blacks too, so I'm confused that you have now started on this course

The current generations of Germans are as much disgusted by what happened as the rest of the world, probably even more so as they have to put up with people like you blaming them for something had nothing to do with

 

[Raven]

Most the WW2 generation were pretty disgusted when they found out what happened too.

 

[DaGaffer]

Most the WW2 generation were pretty disgusted when they found out what happened too.

Er, sure about that?

 

[Gwadien]

Er, sure about that?

Yeah Gaffers right, most ordinary Germans living near camps were aware, but they turned a blind eye to it and were all like; no-one likes Jews, so its cool. Right?

I think its easy to forget that Europe in general was anti Semitic.

As for Churchill men, he was a good leader, a poor person, a poor politician and not forward thinking; Tory.

I don't understand why we don't have more emphasis on the military leaders, Churchill had amazing people around him. Which made his speeches better, what about Montgomery?

 

[Job]

Churchill, Rosevellt were all fascists, the evidence for their ideology is there for all to see, they were in favour of eugenics and many world leaders thought the same...what Hitler tried to do is a simple urge in many minds...to control everything and remove the contamination...you can shout whatever you like..but your brainwashed PC opinions over what was fought for in the war are incredibly simplistic..it WILL happen over and over again and the Germans would be first up to the plate if the shit hit the fan because they ARE the natural leaders of mainland Europe...of course we have nukes now, so no fighting on the beaches required.

 

[Gwadien]

Churchill, Rosevellt were all fascists, the evidence for their ideology is there for all to see, they were in favour of eugenics and many world leaders thought the same...what Hitler tried to do is a simple urge in many minds...to control everything and remove the contamination...you can shout whatever you like..but your brainwashed PC opinions over what was fought for in the war are incredibly simplistic..it WILL happen over and over again and the Germans would be first up to the plate if the shit hit the fan because they ARE the natural leaders of mainland Europe...of course we have nukes now, so no fighting on the beaches required.

For once, I actually agree with you.

It will happen again, and I think Muslims will be the target this time, but bullying a few million Jews will be different to bullying a couple of billion of Muslims, so with this in mind, and how you accept 'it will happen again' how can you support right wing politics? Even if you don't see it as 'racist' it's clearly pushing things into that direction, wittingly, or unwittingly.

 

[Moriath]

Yeah Gaffers right, most ordinary Germans living near camps were aware, but they turned a blind eye to it and were all like; no-one likes Jews, so its cool. Right?

I think its easy to forget that Europe in general was anti Semitic.

As for Churchill men, he was a good leader, a poor person, a poor politician and not forward thinking; Tory.

I don't understand why we don't have more emphasis on the military leaders, Churchill had amazing people around him. Which made his speeches better, what about Montgomery?

Was a small proportion of Germans that lived near camps. Most had no idea.

 

[DaGaffer]

Was a small proportion of Germans that lived near camps. Most had no idea.

Simply not true.

 

[Moriath]

Simply not true.

Even if they did most of the population were living in fear from the gestapo and indoctrinated though the hitler youth etc. with the brownshirts as well you didn't know who was going to inform on you if you spoke out against the regime.

 

[Gwadien]

Even if they did most of the population were living in fear from the gestapo and indoctrinated though the hitler youth etc. with the brownshirts as well you didn't know who was going to inform on you if you spoke out against the regime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

 

[Moriath]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

. ?

Yes hitler bought the brown shirts from outside his control to under his control by killing its leadership. But still don't see the point as before or after they were there to instill fear in the populous and help control it. Just with different political aims.

 

[Gwadien]

. ?

Yes hitler bought the brown shirts from outside his control to under his control by killing its leadership. But still don't see the point as before or after they were there to instill fear in the populous and help control it. Just with different political aims.

No, you were saying that the people were terrorised by brown shirts that's why they didn't report the death camps, there were no brown shirts at that point.

Infact, Germany was loving war life until the end when it actually got to the realities of it.

You had free labour, free labour is great!

 

[TdC]

Infact, Germany was loving war life until the end when it actually got to the realities of it.

not too sure of this tbh.

 

[Moriath]

No, you were saying that the people were terrorised by brown shirts that's why they didn't report the death camps, there were no brown shirts at that point.

Infact, Germany was loving war life until the end when it actually got to the realities of it.

You had free labour, free labour is great!

the first concentration camps were setup in 1933 and the brown shirts only stopped enforcing and concentrated on training in 1939 so for 6 years they were part of the population control.

Also rationing was imposed in 1939 upon out break of war. I think originally yes the populous wanted the nazis in power but more and more liberties were removed from them from 1932 until Hitler made the Nazis the only party and virtually disolved the Reichstag. But it was controlled popularity at the hand of the Brownshirts and the military. Any one who spoke out disappeared, got beaten up. So you cant really say that everyone was happy because they were too scared to say no.

Yes they had better conditions in the war with the free labour etc. But i think the same people didnt want to go and die for a war as there were in other countries.

 

[Gwadien]

Housemate has got some friends round, just used up the toilet roll and hid the rest

 

[Moriath]

@Gwadien @Scouse from the us holocaust museum site

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007822

The Nazi leadership aimed to deceive the German population, the victims, and the outside world regarding their genocidal policy toward Jews. What did ordinary Germans know about the persecution and mass murder of Jews? Despite the public broadcast and publication of general statements about the goal of eliminating “the Jews,” the regime practiced a propaganda of deception by hiding specific details about the “Final Solution,” and press controls prevented Germans from reading statements by Allied and Soviet leaders condemning German crimes.

At the same time, positive stories were fabricated as part of the planned deception. One booklet printed in 1941 glowingly reported that, in occupied Poland, German authorities had put Jews to work, built clean hospitals, set up soup kitchens for Jews, and provided them with newspapers and vocational training. Posters and articles continually reminded the German population not to forget the atrocity stories that Allied propaganda spread about Germans during the First World War, such as the false charge that Germans had cut off the hands of Belgian children.

The perpetrators also hid their murderous intentions from many of the victims. Before and after the fact, the Germans used deceptive euphemisms to explain and justify deportations of Jews from their homes to ghettos or transit camps, and from the ghettos and camps to the gas chambers at Auschwitz and other killing centers. German officials stamped “evacuated,” a word with neutral connotations, on the passports of Jews deported from the Germany and Austria to the “model” ghetto at Theresienstadt, near Prague, or to ghettos in the East. German bureaucrats characterized deportations from the ghettos as “resettlements,” though such “resettlement” usually ended in death.[\Quote]

 

[DaGaffer]

@Gwadien @Scouse from the us holocaust museum site

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007822

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

 

[Moriath]

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/feb/17/johnezard

I prefer a museum over a paper as a source.

 

[DaGaffer]

I prefer a museum over a paper as a source.

The article is reviewing a book that analyst thousands of German media articles during the Nazi period. Or there's this:
http://www.timeshighereducation.co....the-holocaust-was-a-big-secret/203103.article

Particularly telling:

This book also emphasises that most Germans did not live in constant fear or dread during the Third Reich. The majority carried on with their normal lives. In contrast to much of the earlier historical literature on the subject, the survey evidence presented in this book shows that the fear of being arrested by the Gestapo did not feature in the daily experience of most Germans.

 

[Moriath]

So there are credible sources on both sides of the argument. Without being there we won't know

 

[Moriath]

So there are credible sources on both sides of the argument. Without being there we won't know

I also see that research has changed in the years since I studied this part of history. So it depends if you believe the current thesis or what has been written about earlier.