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[russell]

I agree with Moriath. I think the
treaty of Versailles led to such a difficult life for the German people that the normal people saw Hitler as a saviour and a way out of poverty constraints of a dire economy, the legacy left by the First World War.straints. Propaganda and brain washing was evident at all stages, as it still is today really. http://www.theholocaustexplained.or...cts-of-the-treaty-of-versailles/#.VM3XMYkgHCQ

 

[DaGaffer]

I also see that research has changed in the years since I studied this part of history. So it depends if you believe the current thesis or what has been written about earlier.

Well, it actually depends on whether you believe secrets can be kept (I don't), and what level of knowledge the average German had, for which the answer has to be at least some. Its probably true that the average German didn't know about Zyklon B, but the average German certainly knew that slaves of all types, and particularly jews, were being systematically worked and starved to death, because they worked in factories alongside them! Camp prisoners were routinely used in armaments factories, road gangs, all kinds of stuff, and their deterioration would be obvious to anyone with eyes.

Its also true that the average German soldier fought far more determinedly for the Nazis than other nationalities fought for their fascist overlords (e.g, The Italians). And yes their oath was to Hitler, not the German state.

I agree with Moriath. I think the
treaty of Versailles led to such a difficult life for the German people that the normal people saw Hitler as a saviour and a way out of poverty constraints of a dire economy, the legacy left by the First World War.straints. Propaganda and brain washing was evident at all stages, as it still is today really. http://www.theholocaustexplained.or...cts-of-the-treaty-of-versailles/#.VM3XMYkgHCQ

That argument might have been valid in the 20s at the time of the Beer Hall Putsch, but it wasn't when Hitler got into power in the 30s. Versailles was a casus belli, but the economy's woes in the early 30s were due to the Wall Street Crash; the Dawes Plan had already rationalised the Versailles payments to manageable levels as early as 1924, but the way things were structured meant the Germans were particularly reliant on American loans and investment, so when America crashed, so did Germany. You can argue that Versailles was the ultimate cause of this, which may be true, but, a. people tend to forget that Versailles had a precedent, the Germans forced worse payments on the French after the war of 1870, and b. the mythology about Versailles that Hitler used ("the stab in the back") to undermine the Weimar government, wasn't actually true. Hitler may have promised the Germans a way out of their economic woes, but it doesn't alter the fact that the promises the German public lapped up were pretty unpalatable right from the start; you weren't going to get lebensraum without taking it from somebody else.

 

[Scouse]

@Moriath, in the same way that Brits contimue to lie to themselves that our government was not complicit in torture, because of denials, and the US public is mostly behind guantanamo eh?

Edit: Or what @DaGaffer said, 'cause I'm posting from a bnb in the peak district on my phone. People know what's going on...

 

[Job]

To find the truth about life in Germany during the Nazis you have to look into your own heart and experience...did people know? Of course but they shut it out due to a common cultural acceptance of the situation, a cult of superiority spread across the land and it was treated with the same level of denial that we have for mechanised animal slaughter.
The fact that this was so easy to do in Germany concerns me that it is inherent in their makeup and everyone letting them call the shots in the EU isn't helping my mistrust.

 

[Raven]

It must be nice to still live in 1950. I bet house prices are cheap.

 

[Gwadien]

I think some sort of control is in German culture for generations, this is a theory which isn't backed up with evidence, but looking even way back at the Holy Roman Empire they had some kind of unity which made them trade and remain self sufficient in the mix of principalities etc.

Germans wanted to regain their old territories to do the same in both wars, but now they've gone down the diplomatic route; they're practically the head of Europe as a pseudo-state.

Thus it allows them to trade freely in Europe because they have a certain element of control still.

The Spanish like to smash and grab to make money, but they clearly can't anymore, I think it would be interesting to study the cultures of nations and see if they're relatively unchanged throughout history, I want to look right back at our relations to the Scandinavians because after all. That's what we are.

 

[Gwadien]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31079026

Kudos, 1000 steps backward 1 step forward.

 

[Moriath]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31079026

Kudos, 1000 steps backward 1 step forward.

Nah it's cause they know if the conservatives do posters with ed it's gonna hurt their campaign. I don't think its an honourable step just a tactical one to try and not make it a personality test cause Cameron would win.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think some sort of control is in German culture for generations, this is a theory which isn't backed up with evidence, but looking even way back at the Holy Roman Empire they had some kind of unity which made them trade and remain self sufficient in the mix of principalities etc.

Germans wanted to regain their old territories to do the same in both wars, but now they've gone down the diplomatic route; they're practically the head of Europe as a pseudo-state.

Thus it allows them to trade freely in Europe because they have a certain element of control still.

The Spanish like to smash and grab to make money, but they clearly can't anymore, I think it would be interesting to study the cultures of nations and see if they're relatively unchanged throughout history, I want to look right back at our relations to the Scandinavians because after all. That's what we are.

Seriously? That's some proper crude cultural stereotyping you've got going on there. FWIW, "Germans" are probably more culturally diverse than the British; the unification of Germany mashed together a lot different territories. The stereotype "efficient, humourless" German is very specifically Junkers Prussian, but most Germans aren't like that at all, and never were. Germany's "control" issues are simply a function of size and economic power; there are 80+ million Germans and they have the biggest economy, so while most countries want to steer any economic or political agenda to suit themselves, the Germans naturally have the power to do it, and it always takes at least two other Europeans to counter-balance them, which is why once Germany came into existence it was natural for Britain and France to work more closely as a counterweight. After that idea failed (twice, possibly three times depending on your perspective) then France's next big idea was simply to shackle the Germans closely to everyone and the French in particular. The whole EU is basically a way to keep Germans from getting frisky.

NB. When it comes to studying changing cultures of countries, the British are one of the best studies around; the Victorians changed British culture profoundly ("stiff upper lip" wasn't something that would ever have been associated with the British until the 19th century; "drunken louts" was the more common European view in the 18th century...we've just spent the last 50 years or so reverting to type).

 

[Moriath]

The old gin palaces lots of women getting smashed on gin back in the day hehe

 

[Job]

I see the new Greek government are asking for the money back the Nazis stole off them in the war, money for ruining the Greek economy and their debts written off just like Germany had after WW2.
That is just karma coming home to Fritz.

 

[Moriath]

I see the new Greek government are asking for the money back the Nazis stole off them in the war, money for ruining the Greek economy and their debts written off just like Germany had after WW2.
That is just karma coming home to Fritz.

As if they will get anything. Too late now. Think most of Europe will tell them to get lost.

 

[Job]

No doubt, but it's another reminder of old wounds and injustices which are fermenting under the EU dream, now Spain wants a bit of this 'fukyoubrussels'
This could go tits up very quickly indeed.

 

[Gwadien]

I don't know, I think the unification of Europe will be seen as paramount until Russia backs down.

 

[DaGaffer]

I see the new Greek government are asking for the money back the Nazis stole off them in the war, money for ruining the Greek economy and their debts written off just like Germany had after WW2.
That is just karma coming home to Fritz.

The Marshall Plan put to bed most German reparation claims over 60 years ago. Greece got paid off just like most others. And its funny how they're not hollering for the Italians to make reparations despite the Italians, not the Germans, being the major occupying power in Greece.

 

[Scouse]

It must be nice to still live in 1950. I bet house prices are cheap.

Actually - I think @Job's right tbh. Humans tend towards the facist and it's easy to make populations think, speak, say and do what you want. We're sheep.

All you have to do is look at religion as a tool for making humans think certain ways. If the environment is right, we're a bunch of fucking idiots.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Agreed, i'd just change "we" to "humans", but that's nitpicking

Kinda sorta agreed that is, i'm on board with "people are sheep", easy to manipulate with any sort of common cause.

 

[Moriath]

Actually - I think @Job's right tbh. Humans tend towards the facist and it's easy to make populations think, speak, say and do what you want. We're sheep.

All you have to do is look at religion as a tool for making humans think certain ways. If the environment is right, we're a bunch of fucking idiots.

Oh dear this discussions going down hill now. Religion and politics in the same topic.

 

[Scouse]

Constructive, @Moriath. Constructive...

 

[Zarjazz]

@Scouse posting

Actually - I think @Job's right tbh.

I think this forum may be about to implode.

 

[Scouse]

I think this forum may be about to implode.

I've said it for a long time - a human's natural state tends towards a sheep-like following that can easily end in atrocities that are carried out with, at a minimum, tacit acceptance of the majority.

 

[Job]

Change of track, popular misconceptions of Liverpool, these pinewoods are 2 miles from our house, miles of cycle tracks through the woods and dunes and a trendy new bike cafe at the end..lovin it.

View: https://vimeo.com/118420928?utm_source=email&utm_medium=clip-transcode_complete-finished-20120100&utm_campaign=7701&email_id=Y2xpcF90cmFuc2NvZGVkfDg0NWNkYzExZWJkNjczMDI1MGNjODljNWVkNDE5N2NhMzU5fDM2OTg1MTI5fDE0MjI4MjEzNjJ8NzcwMQ%3D%3D

 

[Edmond]

Tesla in 'Insane' mode


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaLgF1uLB8&x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428

 

[Moriath]

Tesla in 'Insane' mode


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaLgF1uLB8&x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428

Shame it only lasts five minutes without a recharge.

Guy flexing his penis enhancer

 

[TdC]

does he have it right after?

edit: haha Mori

 

[DaGaffer]

Tesla in 'Insane' mode


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaLgF1uLB8&x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428

Love it, but its 90 grand. If I had that kind of money I think the i8 would get my cash.

 

[Edmond]

Love it, but its 90 grand. If I had that kind of money I think the i8 would get my cash.

Yes the i8 is nice, although if I did have the money I'd love a porche 918, it's half electric at least

One went past me on the A3 last week, it was nice

 

[Moriath]

Yes the i8 is nice, although if I did have the money I'd love a porche 918, it's half electric at least

One went past me on the A3 last week, it was nice

If I had 90 grand I would pay off my mortgage and spend 50 grand ona hybrid

 

[Edmond]

I'd spend it on drugs, whores and booze, and then just blow the rest on meaningless stuff

 

[Moriath]

I'd spend it on drugs, whores and booze, and then just blow the rest on meaningless stuff

Isn't that George best. Lol