Rant This carbon footprint bollocks

[Sharma]

Wrong. Democracy most certainly is not "the single most succesful political value ever introduced". Europe didnt get where it is as a democracy. It got there as a monarchy. The introduction of democracy in Europe has only diminished our influence (there are other reasons for that i know). America did get where it is as a democracy but first of all. How democratic is America really? And second of all, Americas political system had little to do with their success.

But lets forget the examples. Why would democratic decision making be better than Chinas decision making for example? I cant think of a single good reason.

(And btw, facism, dictatorship and democracy are not the only options ;o)

I severely doubt we'd be where we are now in the modern age without a democratic decision making process.

Also stating "I'm right" whilst avoiding answering questions by beating around the bush and not providing a straight answer really makes me feel like i'm bashing my head against a brick wall.

Every single post you've ever made in any thread i've seen you post in you come across just as bad as these fundamentalists you hate so very much.

Yes, you are a massive hypocrit.

 

[Gorbachioo]

I've said many times, it's not, but the questions isn't about that. I understand full well what and why you do BECAUSE the system is there.

How about answer the question that IS at hand and stop avoiding it?

You think people should be taken out of the decicion process. Correct?
You think people should vote to make a difference. Correct?
And you see no contradiction with these two statements. Correct?
You do not, also, think system works but decide to use it anyway. Correct?

I made it so very simple for you that i believe you might be able to answer.

correct correct correct and correct although i prefer the way i phrased the last one. The system doesnt work but as long as its there i have to use it if i want to make a difference.

 

[Gorbachioo]

I severely doubt we'd be where we are now in the modern age without a democratic decision making process.

Also stating "I'm right" whilst avoiding answering questions by beating around the bush and not providing a straight answer really makes me feel like i'm bashing my head against a brick wall.

Every single post you've ever made in any thread i've seen you post in you come across just as bad as these fundamentalists you hate so very much.

Yes, you are a massive hypocrit.

Probably not. I cant promise you things would be better but theres a good chance for that.

For some reason people here dont understand it if i dont. What did i leave unanswered this time? ;O


how so? -,-


edit: If by "previous attempts" you mean Hitler and Stalin then you chose bad examples. I never said i support dictatorships.

 

[old.Tohtori]

correct correct correct and correct although i prefer the way i phrased the last one. The system doesnt work but as long as its there i have to use it if i want to make a difference.

Thank you, i appreciate answering the questons straight up.

Even if i don't appreciate your thought patterns, but that's neither here nor there in a discussion.

 

[Bugz]

Without taking sides, Gorb what would you suggest as a superior substitute to democracy?

Whilst I do see democracy as somewhat unrefined in the grand scheme of things, I think it has the most potential for overall benefit of a country, as opposed to any other system of order.

 

[Bahumat]

I should be the leader of the world. My decisions will create a Utopia

 

[leviathane]

In an ideal world communism is a great idea and would work, however it'd never work in practice due to the human nature of greed before need.

 

[Lamp]

I should be world leader. I would ban the letter "W".

 

[Gorbachioo]

Without taking sides, Gorb what would you suggest as a superior substitute to democracy?

Whilst I do see democracy as somewhat unrefined in the grand scheme of things, I think it has the most potential for overall benefit of a country, as opposed to any other system of order.

Like i mentioned before. Something like the Chinese system but with human rights. There are probably many things i would change but something like that anyway.

Why do you believe in democracy?


For leviathane: Communism is an economic system. You can have communism with democracy or with a dictator.

 

[leviathane]

communism is an economic system!, partly true i s'pose. But i would suggest you read up on it and get a few facts right.

 

[Gorbachioo]

communism is an economic system!, partly true i s'pose. But i would suggest you read up on it and get a few facts right.

You could just educate me here :C

 

[Golena]

If you feel that people are so dumb then why do you support democracy? ;>

I don't fully support it, people will always vote for what's best for them, not what's best for everyone.

However the only real alternative is having one person making the descisions, and the reason that will never work is because of who that person will be.

It will never be the person who makes the correct descisions based upon what's best for everyone, because that person will never be able to get into that position of power. The only person able to get into that position will be someone who ultimately looks out for themselves, and only themself.
I could state what the best form of government would be, but it's pointless since it's entirely hypothetical and won't happen while power is decided based on who has the most money and guns. Like I said, humans arn't smart benevolent creatures. Most of us are stupid selfish creatures, and until that changes, we are stuck where we are.

 

[Gorbachioo]

I don't fully support it, people will always vote for what's best for them, not what's best for everyone.

However the only real alternative is having one person making the descisions, and the reason that will never work is because of who that person will be.

It will never be the person who makes the correct descisions based upon what's best for everyone, because that person will never be able to get into that position of power. The only person able to get into that position will be someone who ultimately looks out for themselves, and only themself.
I could state what the best form of government would be, but it's pointless since it's entirely hypothetical and won't happen while power is decided based on who has the most money and guns. Like I said, humans arn't smart benevolent creatures. Most of us are stupid selfish creatures, and until that changes, we are stuck where we are.

Why is that the only real alternative?

 

[Golena]

Why is that the only real alternative?

Either one person makes the descisions, everyone makes the descisions or small subset of people make the descisions. I guess technically no-one could make a descision as well tbh.

So either everyone makes a descision, or the people with most guns (power) make them, and probably make them based on what's best for them. Which do you want?

 

[Gorbachioo]

Either one person makes the descisions, everyone makes the descisions or small subset of people make the descisions. I guess technically no-one could make a descision as well tbh.

So either everyone makes a descision, or the people with most guns (power) make them, and probably make them based on what's best for them. Which do you want?

I choose "a small subset of people make the decisions". It has the good sides of a dictatorship but not the bad ones.

If you're in charge of a country then its in your best interest that the country and its people do well. Ofcourse they often give themselves more priviledges than they would be able to in a democracy but thats a small downside in my opinion.

 

[old.Tohtori]

If you're in charge of a country then its in your best interest that the country and its people do well. Ofcourse they often give themselves more priviledges than they would be able to in a democracy but thats a small downside in my opinion.

Aye, Bush, Hitler, Stalin, Hussein...just wonderful how they think of their people.

You might think that a "secret voting society" would work, but the downsides wouldn't be just in the loss of freedom. ou'd get Che Guevaras up the wazoo, rebels and "insurgents" at every street and the IRA times the world at your hands.

People would die by the masses and the rich and powerful who can afford to vote, would be safe in their ivory towards and get richer.

You really think the rich would be the ones OUT of the voting system and you REALLY think the poor would get anything but a bullet?

 

[Gorbachioo]

Aye, Bush, Hitler, Stalin, Hussein...just wonderful how they think of their people.

You might think that a "secret voting society" would work, but the downsides wouldn't be just in the loss of freedom. ou'd get Che Guevaras up the wazoo, rebels and "insurgents" at every street and the IRA times the world at your hands.

People would die by the masses and the rich and powerful who can afford to vote, would be safe in their ivory towards and get richer.

You really think the rich would be the ones OUT of the voting system and you REALLY think the poor would get anything but a bullet?

You just never listen do you? Hitler, Stalin, Hussein were dictators. (Why is Bush in that group? -.-) I never said anything about dictatorships.

Rebels only get support if things go wrong. There is no significant rebellious activites in China because the country is doing so well.

You're forgetting the fact that people already are dying by the masses. When we talk about these things you have to realise that things are NOT okay now. Things are okay here but in too many places they are not. And they are about to get a hell of a lot worse. We're heading for a disaster and our leaders cant do anything about it because people want everything and they want it now.

 

[old.Tohtori]

You just never listen do you? Hitler, Stalin, Hussein were dictators. (Why is Bush in that group? -.-) I never said anything about dictatorships.

Rebels only get support if things go wrong. There is no significant rebellious activites in China because the country is doing so well.

You're forgetting the fact that people already are dying by the masses. When we talk about these things you have to realise that things are NOT okay now. Things are okay here but in too many places they are not. And they are about to get a hell of a lot worse. We're heading for a disaster and our leaders cant do anything about it because people want everything and they want it now.

I NEVER listen? Hah. That's rich.

You said, as i quoted, "If you're in charge of a country then its in your best interest that the country and its people do well.". There was no "Unless you're a dictator" or "If you're in a democracy". So my point stands, no denying it's fair.

Why Bush is there, well, the world and the US seem to think he's doing a "dang good job" aren't they? No wait...no they're not!

Exactly. Rebels WOULD get support and things would go wrong i places where it's not wrong.

Your way of "only few vote" means these things:

Only rich/powerful vote(fact, poor/normal/YOU even, wouldn't be able to get the voting right).
When rich/powerful vote, rich and powerful first think how they can stay rich/powerful. Fact.
When rich/poweful stay rich/powerful, poor and normal folk get sh*t. Fact.

Ivory towers, poor killing eachother, streets of chaos, only possible outcome.

OR

Total control "utopia" in style of Equilibrium/others.

 

[Golena]

I choose "a small subset of people make the decisions". It has the good sides of a dictatorship but not the bad ones.

If you're in charge of a country then its in your best interest that the country and its people do well. Ofcourse they often give themselves more priviledges than they would be able to in a democracy but thats a small downside in my opinion.

If your in charge of a country it's in your best interests that you do well. If that means treating your slaves like slaves then treat them like slaves. If they complain about being treated like a slave, shoot them in the head.. After all we need to get rid of some of them after all.

Sounds wonderfully pleasant, as long as your in the have's of course.

People who arn't prepared to shoot the whiners in the head (that's the people who are getting shafted by the system) won't stay in power, since at the first sign of doing something that the masses disagree with there will be an uprising, and you either shoot them or lose your power. Or you ensure that every descision will be popular, and your back to having everyone in charge again.

It's good to know that your answer to global warming is to bring back slavery tho.

 

[Gorbachioo]

These horror scenes your talking about are highly unlikely and i could argue that less likely than what they are in a democracy. Just think about the communist wars in the world after ww1 and ww2.

Democracy is not fair. 51% of the people can take away the rights of the 49%. Why is that any less of a risk of civil war to you? If theres a strong leadership they can guarantee the rights of the minorities. They might not do that but are more likely to do so than a democratic goverment would.

In Finland we had a civil war right after we became independent because others wanted communism and others wanted a democracy. Then 10 years after we almost had a facist rebellion.

 

[old.Tohtori]

These horror scenes your talking about are highly unlikely and i could argue that less likely than what they are in a democracy. Just think about the communist wars in the world after ww1 and ww2.

Democracy is not fair. 51% of the people can take away the rights of the 49%. Why is that any less of a risk of civil war to you? If theres a strong leadership they can guarantee the rights of the minorities. They might not do that but are more likely to do so than a democratic goverment would.

In Finland we had a civil war right after we became independent because others wanted communism and others wanted a democracy. Then 10 years after we almost had a facist rebellion.

And the horror scenes you're talking about are as unlikely too, since we can avoid them etc etc. Who knows.

Your way would be LESS fair even, with some 5%(not hafl surely?) deciding all. Or do you suggest, that ALL the people choose WHO gets to decide all for them? Contradiction train coming again. Saying that a democratic government would work less then a dictatorship, is just plain silly. And that's what it is, a dictatorship, just with a slightly larger leadership that you're proposing.

Finlands war history has nothing to do here, even if that's a very narrow view of our civil war. But then again i think you're one of the guys who thinks Finalnd was against Nazis.(godwins finally)

 

[Gorbachioo]

And the horror scenes you're talking about are as unlikely too, since we can avoid them etc etc. Who knows.

Your way would be LESS fair even, with some 5%(not hafl surely?) deciding all. Or do you suggest, that ALL the people choose WHO gets to decide all for them? Contradiction train coming again. Saying that a democratic government would work less then a dictatorship, is just plain silly. And that's what it is, a dictatorship, just with a slightly larger leadership that you're proposing.

Finlands war history has nothing to do here, even if that's a very narrow view of our civil war. But then again i think you're one of the guys who thinks Finalnd was against Nazis.(godwins finally)

We werent against the nazis. But we werent their allies either.

Ive already answered all the arguments you make about these "dictatorships" but you just keep saying the same things without using your brains at all so this debate is getting pointless.

 

[old.Tohtori]

We werent against the nazis. But we werent their allies either.

Ive already answered all the arguments you make about these "dictatorships" but you just keep saying the same things without using your brains at all so this debate is getting pointless.

No you didn't, but i don't want to have to repeat myself AGAIN for 4 TIMES before getting an answer from you. I've made plenty of points, all avoided, even the Nazi comment avoided by bullcrap.

Yes, you, problem, can't answer. NOTHING. Only one answered question after i repeated it 4 times.

So before you throw moronic insults around, learn to act how you preach yourself.

 

[Zede]

You just never listen do you? Hitler, Stalin, Hussein were dictators. (Why is Bush in that group? -.-) I never said anything about dictatorships.

Rebels only get support if things go wrong. There is no significant rebellious activites in China because the country is doing so well.

You're forgetting the fact that people already are dying by the masses. When we talk about these things you have to realise that things are NOT okay now. Things are okay here but in too many places they are not. And they are about to get a hell of a lot worse. We're heading for a disaster and our leaders cant do anything about it because people want everything and they want it now.

No rebels cause China is doing so well ? That alone shows how flawed and stupid you really are.

 

[GReaper]

tl;dr - and this thread has turned into some bollocks off topic from the original post.

Do I care about the carbon footprint bollocks? Sort of. I try to be sensible and not waste too much, but the most motivating factor to reducing carbon footprint is money.

I'm not going to buy a petrol guzzling car because it simply costs too much. Wasting heat/energy by leaving devices on is a pointless waste of money. I just wish there were more incentives for greener alternatives provided by the government instead of just using pollution and carbon footprint as an excuse for more tax.

 

[Gorbachioo]

No rebels cause China is doing so well ? That alone shows how flawed and stupid you really are.

______significant__________ Read what i say dumbass. The chinese are willing to put up with the shitty living conditions in the rural areas because of the economic growth. They realise that if they start rebelling now its all gone and nothings going to change. Sure there are some who fight against it but the majority are waiting for things to get better in the current system.

Anyway, i think im gonna stop this now cos this is pointless. I have to explain every goddamn thing over and over again but you just dont listen.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Anyway, i think im gonna stop this now cos this is pointless. I have to be explained every goddamn thing over and over again but i just dont listen.

Fixed that.

 

[Golena]

The chinese are willing to put up with the shitty living conditions in the rural areas because of the economic growth.

I'll take you seriously if you answer just one question for me. It's not going to be a hard question so there's no reason for you to bullshit your way out of it like you have done every other question that has been asked..

Have you ever gone to a rural Chinese area and asked the people there why they are prepared to put up with the shitty living conditions. Or are you just basing this on what the media may or may not have told you?

Do you even know what crimes you have to commit in China to simply be lined up against a wall and shot? My mum lived in China for 8 months, i've spoken to quite a few Chinese people in person.. What's your experience of the country consist of?

 

[Gorbachioo]

I'll take you seriously if you answer just one question for me. It's not going to be a hard question so there's no reason for you to bullshit your way out of it like you have done every other question that has been asked..

Have you ever gone to a rural Chinese area and asked the people there why they are prepared to put up with the shitty living conditions. Or are you just basing this on what the media may or may not have told you?

Do you even know what crimes you have to commit in China to simply be lined up against a wall and shot? My mum lived in China for 8 months, i've spoken to quite a few Chinese people in person.. What's your experience of the country consist of?

No i have not. But the explanation i gave is very logical and widely supported. But im sure theres some fear of the goverment to it aswell. (if that was your point).

I have a vague idea, but i dont think that harsh punishments are a sign of opression. Killing people for having different opinions if wrong ofcourse but i never said that i support the chinese goverment in everything they do.

All i know about China comes from the TV and internet. Sure actually talking to chinese people in person would give a more accurate image of the country but i think i know enough as it is.

 

[Marc]

I see a thread about carbon footprints so skipped straight to the last page to see where the topic was upto and imagine my surprise to find a discussion about war and dictators