Rant This carbon footprint bollocks

[Raven]

plenty of water about

population problems? what do you suggest there? sterilisation? Or would you like to see us stop feeding the poor and letting them starve to death.

Global warming. think of a way of stopping volcanoes th e sun and all other natural sources of green house gases then start whining about the tiny amount humans produce.

Peak oil? again, find away to stop people throttling supply and stock piling

You really do pull random stuff out your arse just to argue. Go back, form an opinion and stick to it.

 

[kiliarien]

Well, Killarien, another point that make me stay very sceptic towards this, is that the scientists that work in the field got next to no motivation to prove their own theories wrong.

Their current theories predicts that doom is incoming to humanity unless they can make some scientific breakthrough, hence they get loads of funding, so if they started disproving claims and test their research very critically (like science always should) and did find it to be wrong, it would mean a lot of them loosing their jobs.

Can't think of any other branch of science that got that kind of interest in not proving itself wrong. I mean, even if Evolutionary Theory was proven wrong somehow, it would not mean the subject of the origin of species was any less important, actually it would become more important to research the field than ever because it would be a major setback in our understanding.

Hence I see reason to doubt it. Not that I don't live an quite eco-friendly lifestyle, I just think the madness and media hype about it is overdoing it a bit too much

I agree with you there, there really isn't much motivation to fund themselves out of a job - and I think it's right to besceptical of scientific theories and principles, taking into account how many of them have been ballsed up.

The problem lies in that some of the phenomena they're trying to investigate they know very little about and they're on such massive scales - the thermohaline conveyor for example; how on earth do you keep measuring a deep ocean current that circles the earth and can take one body of water (at charted speeds) up to 1,000 years to go in a complete circle? The same for the jetstreams, how can you measure a 300mph wind that can shift track almost instantaneously?

It seems to me we're getting all knee-jerk reaction 'just in case' global warming will be that bad. My point stands from earlier - the developing nations don't really give a shit, and they're the ones with unmanageable population explosions that will consume more and seal the deal. Although us developed nations are big consumers, our contribution to cutting down will be more than offset by the poorer countries' increasing demands .

 

[Golena]

Yeah i get that. But what have they done?

population growth?

peak oil?

water depletion?

global warming?

These are massive problems and require massive solutions. The kind that are quite hard to keep a secret.

What would you do about it that wouldn't get you thrown out of power?

What do you want them to say.. yes there's a problem but we can't fix it without massive change? Probably a change that everyone will be very unhappy with.. Oh look we've been shot..

These things all revolve around power and money. Go look at manchester.. People are prepared to kick the crap out of each other because one TV doesn't work for 5 hours. Go try taking real stuff off them and see how far you get before you end up face first on the pavement. Humans arn't (and never will be) your wonderful unselfish creatures who actually when it comes down to the wire give a crap about people other than themselves.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Its impossible to talk with you because you never admit your losses. You just dance around the questions.

Just to prove my point: Are normal people/the average guy/whatever, you get the point capable of running their countries? (ive asked this like 4 times now and you still havent answered me)

The thing is, it's actually YOU who's dancing around the questions.

I answered your question about 4 times, but i just didn't answer it like you'd like. In other words, answer so that you can twist it and use it to go "aha! i knew you'd say blabla".

You on the other hand haven't answered basic questions.

And don't ask me to point them out AGAIN.

 

[Golena]

You on the other hand haven't answered basic questions.

And don't ask me to point them out AGAIN.

It's obvious why he hasn't answered the very basic questions. He, like everyone else simply doesn't have the answers because they don't exist.
He knows full well the only way he can possibly win the argument is by ignoring half the questions, and so the selective reading begins..

Asking the questions again won't change this.

 

[Gorbachioo]

plenty of water about

population problems? what do you suggest there? sterilisation? Or would you like to see us stop feeding the poor and letting them starve to death.

Global warming. think of a way of stopping volcanoes th e sun and all other natural sources of green house gases then start whining about the tiny amount humans produce.

Peak oil? again, find away to stop people throttling supply and stock piling

You really do pull random stuff out your arse just to argue. Go back, form an opinion and stick to it.

Cant remember any numbers when it comes to water, but atleast from what i know it is going to be a problem. Can anyone with more knowledge tell more? ;C

For the population growth i suggest the 1 child policy that the chinese have. We have discussed its problems before so im not going to start debating about it. Its hard but possible. And anyway, we dont have a choice here. It will be done trough war/famine or with us in charge.

Peak oil/global warming: Start developing mass transportation, make it a better option compared to driving a car. (with taxes or whatever). Start building solar/wind power. I could go on but you get the point.

 

[Gorbachioo]

What would you do about it that wouldn't get you thrown out of power?

What do you want them to say.. yes there's a problem but we can't fix it without massive change? Probably a change that everyone will be very unhappy with.. Oh look we've been shot..

These things all revolve around power and money. Go look at manchester.. People are prepared to kick the crap out of each other because one TV doesn't work for 5 hours. Go try taking real stuff off them and see how far you get before you end up face first on the pavement. Humans arn't (and never will be) your wonderful unselfish creatures who actually when it comes down to the wire give a crap about people other than themselves.

This is exactly why i want to get rid of democracy. But since its not going anywhere:

Educate them about it, and pray they get scared enough. If they do, then fix it. If they dont, then escape to some deserted island or something, because ironicly they'll be blaming the goverment for it.

 

[Gorbachioo]

The thing is, it's actually YOU who's dancing around the questions.

I answered your question about 4 times, but i just didn't answer it like you'd like. In other words, answer so that you can twist it and use it to go "aha! i knew you'd say blabla".

You on the other hand haven't answered basic questions.

And don't ask me to point them out AGAIN.

Haha... You're unbeliavable.

Are normal people/the average guy/whatever, you get the point capable of running their countries?

You cant avoid it forever. So just answer it now.

I will have to ask you to point them out AGAIN because you never have. We have been in this situation so many times before but you NEVER repeat these questions you say ive ignored. So how about now? Just to make me look like an ass.

 

[Golena]

Cant remember any numbers when it comes to water, but atleast from what i know it is going to be a problem. Can anyone with more knowledge tell more? ;C

For the population growth i suggest the 1 child policy that the chinese have. We have discussed its problems before so im not going to start debating about it. Its hard but possible. And anyway, we dont have a choice here. It will be done trough war/famine or with us in charge.

Peak oil/global warming: Start developing mass transportation, make it a better option compared to driving a car. (with taxes or whatever). Start building solar/wind power. I could go on but you get the point.

Water won't be a problem. There's more than enough of it and creating drinkable water isn't tricky if your prepared to throw some money at the solution which we will do if it actually becomes an issue.

For the 1-child solution it's going to take a change in many coutries governments. That means (yep you guessed it) lots of killing of innocent people.

Mass transportation only works in a useful manner if people need to go from point A to point B at the same time as other people. That pretty much means our entire infistructure is fooked and we need to knock it down and start again. The price of driving is going up on a pretty steep level at the moment. So looks like they are doing what you suggested, they just arn't advertising it as such to you.

 

[Golena]

You cant avoid it forever. So just answer it now.

I'm bored of reading his answers to this..

Can't you just go read one of the 4 he's posted already?

There's a wonderful option on forums.. It lets you go back and read posts that you simply skipped past before. Try it sometime.

 

[Golena]

So if you really anally want an answer to your very flamebaiting question, the answer is "as good as anyone".

Just for you Gorbachioo

 

[Gorbachioo]

Just for you Gorbachioo

You're not mentioning the fact that he later on said that someone with political training would do it better than an average person. So which one is it?


= He hasnt answered yet.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Water won't be a problem. There's more than enough of it and creating drinkable water isn't tricky if your prepared to throw some money at the solution which we will do if it actually becomes an issue.

For the 1-child solution it's going to take a change in many coutries governments. That means (yep you guessed it) lots of killing of innocent people.

Mass transportation only works in a useful manner if people need to go from point A to point B at the same time as other people. That pretty much means our entire infistructure is fooked and we need to knock it down and start again. The price of driving is going up on a pretty steep level at the moment. So looks like they are doing what you suggested, they just arn't advertising it as such to you.

I wonder if the water problem is that simple. I mean, the answer to the energy problem was something like that too.

"Hey no problem, we'll just move to renewables."

I wish they would start already.

1 child policy: I very much doubt that. But if thats the case then its still a better option than letting it happen.

Mass transportation: Not easy, but has to be done. Are they really doing it? That would be excellent news but i just havent seen anything like that.


Arguing with you people is so useless. You just point out flaws in my ideas but never give alternative plans. Should we just keep doing what we're doing and face the consequences?

 

[old.Tohtori]

Haha... You're unbeliavable.

Are normal people/the average guy/whatever, you get the point capable of running their countries?

You cant avoid it forever. So just answer it now.

I will have to ask you to point them out AGAIN because you never have. We have been in this situation so many times before but you NEVER repeat these questions you say ive ignored. So how about now? Just to make me look like an ass.

I don't need to retort to insults or throwing, as i have a valid point.

I have repeated the questions, twice i believe. I'm not going to keep posting them again and again, 'cause you're unable to answer them.

And like Golena said, i've answered, many many times. Go read them, and if you can't get a more complex answer from "as good as any person" and "with political training" then you're way out of help.

Arguing with you people is so useless. You just point out flaws in my ideas but never give alternative plans. Should we just keep doing what we're doing and face the consequences?

The reason why it's useless is because you A: Think of discussing as arguing. and B: Don't move one inch, one nano millimeter even, from your stance and avoid all other suggestions.

 

[crispy]

Let me quote a friend:

"The environment is something you change in your hummer"

 

[Golena]

Arguing with you people is so useless. You just point out flaws in my ideas but never give alternative plans. Should we just keep doing what we're doing and face the consequences?

And that's why your approach to fixing stuff is so horribly wrong.

Coming up with an idea, putting it out there and having the flaws pointed out by us is about the most useful thing we could do. What most people do in that situation is try to come up with a better idea that doesn't have those flaws..

You simply keep spouting the same idea out and then complaining when we yet again explain why it couldn't work. That's the reason your currently finding it useless. Come up with a plan that we can't simply wrip to shreads in 20 seconds and you'll of actually achieved something of value.

You have to remember that plans that might work but are never going to be accepted by the general population are only going to work if you first shoot half the general population tho, so plan that in.

 

[Gorbachioo]

And that's why your approach to fixing stuff is so horribly wrong.

Coming up with an idea, putting it out there and having the flaws pointed out by us is about the most useful thing we could do. What most people do in that situation is try to come up with a better idea that doesn't have those flaws..

You simply keep spouting the same idea out and then complaining when we yet again explain why it couldn't work. That's the reason your currently finding it useless. Come up with a plan that we can't simply wrip to shreads in 20 seconds and you'll of actually achieved something of value.

You have to remember that plans that might work but are never going to be accepted by the general population are only going to work if you first shoot half the general population tho, so plan that in.

First of all, you dont "wrip my ideas to shreads in 20 seconds". Most of them work but have minor flaws. And when they do, you for some reason think that that means they dont work. Nothing is perfect in this world.

Most of the ideas i give you are the best there is. Your solution (for example) on population growth is to just let it grow which will lead to a massive crisis. My solution (1 child policy) is not easy but its the best we got.


And i think you have too little faith in people. They arent THAT stupid.

 

[Golena]

My solution (1 child policy) is not easy but its the best we got.

And i think you have too little faith in people. They arent THAT stupid.

Again you've come up with a solution but completely failed to come up with any idea how you'd implement it.

I could say "we'll stop global warming by not using cars". It's a great idea but without any way of actually making it happen, uterly useless.

That's not even a small flaw, it's a huge flaw.


And yes people are very much that stupid. I believe it was best summed up by a bloke on the radio asking what people were going to spend the £120 pounds the government were giving them next year on, having decided to take £120 off the amount of tax we'd be charged (a few days after increasing it by £160).

 

[russell]

Mmmmm interesting thread……My take on it all is this...

1- Historically human beings have always been reactive rather than pro- active. We tend to leave it, until it’s all kicking off before we actually do anything


2- From what I have seen Global Warming is an inevitable process. Our planet has always had peaks and troughs, floods and natural disasters throughout time, but all predications indicate that we are due a massive peak. This will be gradual and of course we will move and adapt as the human race always does.


3- I don’t condone apathy, but I agree that it is the big industrialised countries, million- pound industries, the powerful money makers and the World leaders that should be managing this from the top down. But that wont happen yet (see first point)


4- In my opinion we, as individuals shouldn’t ‘live like pigs’ and could do our bit if we wish. This shouldn’t be pressurized and we shouldn’t be dictated to by the media. It is an individual choice, if you feel you are helping, do it. (Why not? It can only do good) If you can’t be arsed/ or feel like you are being dictated to, fine- just leave your lights on and pc’s on standby!! Realistically the delay in temperature rise, icecap melting, gulf -stream flooding etc can only be achieved by massive change in world economy.

5- I have kids who aren’t ‘worthless idiots’ and obviously I like to think they will have a good life/ planet for their families. I bring them up to care and be responsible for themselves. They make me want to be a better person. Maybe if more of you on this thread had kids you would think differently.

6- I cant comment on all of the other ‘banter’ I dont get all the hidden agendas?

 

[Raven]

the point is, it is going to happen anyway, whether we exist or not so why waste time worrying about it and thinking up new taxable ways to change the unchangable?

Sure prepare for it but if it cannot be changed there is little point losing sleep over it.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Some scientist said something about ice-masses moving on mars or something like that.

I have to ask, are we polluting mars too?!

 

[Gorbachioo]

Again you've come up with a solution but completely failed to come up with any idea how you'd implement it.

I could say "we'll stop global warming by not using cars". It's a great idea but without any way of actually making it happen, uterly useless.

That's not even a small flaw, it's a huge flaw.


And yes people are very much that stupid. I believe it was best summed up by a bloke on the radio asking what people were going to spend the £120 pounds the government were giving them next year on, having decided to take £120 off the amount of tax we'd be charged (a few days after increasing it by £160).

I already said that we have discussed the 1 child policy and im not going there again. (in a previous thread)

If you feel that people are so dumb then why do you support democracy? ;>

 

[Gorbachioo]

the point is, it is going to happen anyway, whether we exist or not so why waste time worrying about it and thinking up new taxable ways to change the unchangable?

Sure prepare for it but if it cannot be changed there is little point losing sleep over it.

From what i know we're talking about hundreds of years here. It might happen in 200 hundred years anyway but by then we'll have 200 hundred years more of technology. Maybe we wont be able to stop it then but i think its reasonable to assume that we'll be better prepared.

And you do realise that "preparing for it" means moving like 30% of the worlds population? ;O Not to mention all the other problems. I think we'll be better off if we just cut back on those emissions.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Just as an off-topic point, Gorb, if you think that there won't be an atleast "30% decrease in humanity" war in the next 200 years or so, well, you're a bit silly.

Were lucky if we manage another 50, and not destroy us all in the next big one.

Emissions aren't gonna have time to kill us before we f*ck ourselves up or in a slightly less possible way, the planet shakes us off like a bad case of fleas.

If you feel that people are so dumb then why do you support democracy? ;>

If you feel that people shouldn't be allowed to contribute to decicion making, why do you?

 

[Sharma]

If you feel that people are so dumb then why do you support democracy? ;>

Because the price we pay is worth the result.

If you think any other political value will work such as a Facist state or dictatorship which from what I gather you're putting forward then feel free to look at all the previous attempts at this and look at the result.

I think you'll find that Democracy has been the single most successful political value ever introduced.

Having stupid people vote in stupid ways is all part and parcel of a democratic society. I think if the UK suddenly turned into a dictatorship (It's not that far off at the moment though is it? ) - you'd find that the country would pretty much instantly dissolve into chaos as civil unrest becomes rife.

 

[Gorbachioo]

Just as an off-topic point, Gorb, if you think that there won't be an atleast "30% decrease in humanity" war in the next 200 years or so, well, you're a bit silly.

Were lucky if we manage another 50, and not destroy us all in the next big one.

Emissions aren't gonna have time to kill us before we f*ck ourselves up or in a slightly less possible way, the planet shakes us off like a bad case of fleas.



If you feel that people shouldn't be allowed to contribute to decicion making, why do you?

Thats possible. But then ive never talked about this in any way?

And i contribute to decision making because im right.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Thats possible. But then ive never talked about this in any way?

And i contribute to decision making because im right.

That's why i said off-topic. It's pointless to say "in 200 years we shall have big trouble with people being too many and natural resource being scarce!", when in all probability we'll be dead in 50. More so i a 100, almost definetaly 150. Ofcourse i may be wrong but who the f*cks gonna be left to tell me so in a 100 years.

The "Order of Seels Wrongful Post"?

You avoided the question again, if you, as you do, believe that people shouldn't effect(affect?) the decicion making, why are you supporting it?

 

[Gorbachioo]

Because the price we pay is worth the result.

If you think any other political value will work such as a Facist state or dictatorship which from what I gather you're putting forward then feel free to look at all the previous attempts at this and look at the result.

I think you'll find that Democracy has been the single most successful political value ever introduced.

Having stupid people vote in stupid ways is all part and parcel of a democratic society. I think if the UK suddenly turned into a dictatorship (It's not that far off at the moment though is it? ) - you'd find that the country would pretty much instantly dissolve into chaos as civil unrest becomes rife.

Wrong. Democracy most certainly is not "the single most succesful political value ever introduced". Europe didnt get where it is as a democracy. It got there as a monarchy. The introduction of democracy in Europe has only diminished our influence (there are other reasons for that i know). America did get where it is as a democracy but first of all. How democratic is America really? And second of all, Americas political system had little to do with their success.

But lets forget the examples. Why would democratic decision making be better than Chinas decision making for example? I cant think of a single good reason.

(And btw, facism, dictatorship and democracy are not the only options ;o)

 

[Gorbachioo]

That's why i said off-topic. It's pointless to say "in 200 years we shall have big trouble with people being too many and natural resource being scarce!", when in all probability we'll be dead in 50. More so i a 100, almost definetaly 150. Ofcourse i may be wrong but who the f*cks gonna be left to tell me so in a 100 years.

The "Order of Seels Wrongful Post"?

You avoided the question again, if you, as you do, believe that people shouldn't effect(affect?) the decicion making, why are you supporting it?

Why? Why is this so hard for you? I dont support the system but as long as its there i'll work with it. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?!?! ;O

geez...

 

[old.Tohtori]

Why? Why is this so hard for you? I dont support the system but as long as its there i'll work with it. WHY IS THAT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?!?! ;O

geez...

I've said many times, it's not, but the questions isn't about that. I understand full well what and why you do BECAUSE the system is there.

How about answer the question that IS at hand and stop avoiding it?

You think people should be taken out of the decicion process. Correct?
You think people should vote to make a difference. Correct?
And you see no contradiction with these two statements. Correct?
You do not, also, think system works but decide to use it anyway. Correct?

I made it so very simple for you that i believe you might be able to answer.