The Pope's remarks

[yaruar]

Their bible the Koran says to 'strike down followers of other gods wherever you may find them' or some such passage. I think its the religion and the followers that is the problem.

They treat their women like shit and the women are meant to be ok with it, if a woman is raped they can be killed for adultery, sounds like a really peaceful religion doesn't it?
Fuck 'em.

Is that a direct quote for your first part? I'm assuming you ahve read the Koran in Arabic to be able to give us that wisdom.

Secondly that's extreme sharia law which a lot of Imams disagree vehemently with.

In the USA christian groups regularly assisinate people and firebomb abortion clinics. Also the US is a christian country (ruled by christians who make no bones about their religion being the major influence on their politics) and they regularly execute people for being poor, black, gay or mentally subnormal (well they give other reasons, but the figures are pretty compelling especially in teh exceptionally borderline cases....)

 

[Trem]

The law about the raped women is a law in Pakistan based on their religion. I may be vague and a bit off but I am quite sure I read this somewhere.

Tom - that was a god doing bad shit not telling his followers to do bad shit, its hardly the same and even if it were we aren't stupid enough to believe the crap.

Bibles are the Harry Potter books of days gone by, most western people realise that but the mid east guys don't seem to.

These arguments on this forum never get anywhere, people always think they are correct and others totally wrong, easier to think what you want and keep quiet.

 

[Trem]

Is that a direct quote for your first part? I'm assuming you ahve read the Koran in Arabic to be able to give us that wisdom.

I read it here - http://www.youmeworks.com/cause_of_terrorism.html

and the Koran has been translated, you don't need to read arabic.

 

[yaruar]

I read it here - http://www.youmeworks.com/cause_of_terrorism.html

and the Koran has been translated, you don't need to read arabic.

Yeah, but like the bible, the only way to read it without bias is to be able to read it in the language it was written.

 

[yaruar]

The law about the raped women is a law in Pakistan based on their religion. I may be vague and a bit off but I am quite sure I read this somewhere.

Tom - that was a god doing bad shit not telling his followers to do bad shit, its hardly the same and even if it were we aren't stupid enough to believe the crap.

Firstly there was until recently quite difficult laws on rape in Pakistan, namely that under the 1970's based islamic laws it required a woman to have 4 witnesses to a rape in order to bring to to trial. Although this has recently been changed wheerby women get a choice of going via that law or through a penal system. In the former law however rape is punishable by execution, so i'm not sure where you got the adultery bit from? Although in a lot of cultures women who are raped are treated as unclean. Ireland used to until recently treat women who had been raped terribly.

Secondly god gets people to do all sorts of bad stuff, sacrificing their children springs to mind initially.

 

[throdgrain]

Yeah, but like the bible, the only way to read it without bias is to be able to read it in the language it was written.

Heheh your type always first question the validity of the statement, then when shown the proof just ignore it anyway Its like arguing with a brick wall (or a Islamic fundamentalist).

 

[yaruar]

Heheh your type always first question the validity of the statement, then when shown the proof just ignore it anyway Its like arguing with a brick wall (or a Islamic fundamentalist).

I question everything. The proof shown was a website which was some of the most shocking anti islamic propaganda i've seen (muslims are either terrorists or people decieving us to help teh war against other religions was the main gist)
I count quite a few muslims (of all variences of strictnesses) as friends, and have family in the church. I've talked to all of them about these issues? Have you? Or am i being lied to by the evil Islamists?

 

[Trem]

Secondly god gets people to do all sorts of bad stuff, sacrificing their children springs to mind initially.

Well like I said earlier that then points towards the people more than the religion because they still believe it. 50% religions fault and 50% the peoples fault who follow the total load of bollocks for not having the gumption to realise its a load of shit.

I know what what will be brought up next, culture, bred into them etc blah blah blah not their fault blah blah. It fucking well is because they are too stupid to realise when you die you are dust, nothing else, just dust.

 

[ECA]

Actually if a woman in Pakistan accuses someone of rape via Sharia law and cannot produce four witnesses or the accuded is found innocent she is chargeable with adultery which does indeed carry a potential death sentence.

That is, as long as I recall what the bbc wrote correctly last week

 

[Trem]

I question everything. The proof shown was a website which was some of the most shocking anti islamic propaganda i've seen (muslims are either terrorists or people decieving us to help teh war against other religions was the main gist)
I count quite a few muslims (of all variences of strictnesses) as friends, and have family in the church. I've talked to all of them about these issues? Have you? Or am i being lied to by the evil Islamists?

Btw I am discussing this with you here, I aren't having a go or giving you shit for your opinion.

Lets face it if they are friends would they really discuss some of their darker beliefs, we all have them, we all have things we don't mention.

I have read the 'kill all followers' thing somewhere else, that was the first webby I could find that I have read where it is mentioned.

To the neutral the muslim faith and the people who follow it seems to cause most of the worlds problems that are around at the minute. If I am wrong then please correct me.

Also the "select few nutters" statement that is always dragged up doesnt hold water with me. There seems to be an awful lot seeing as they are only a few.

 

[Guest]

just send an elite crew of bodhi throdgrain trem and me over so we can infiltrate and exterminate the dodgy ***** who are causing the shit. Plus bohdi can get loads of class A so the trip will be worth while.


oh and btw, italy and the vatican is a believer in free speech and so is england the last time i called a taxi driver a **** for overcharging me, so unless the muslims actually try to talk to other religious sects instead of bombing the fuck out of people that call them names (or not as the case maybe) its not going to work is it.

:england:

 

[yaruar]

Btw I am discussing this with you here, I aren't having a go or giving you shit for your opinion.

Lets face it if they are friends would they really discuss some of their darker beliefs, we all have them, we all have things we don't mention.

I have read the 'kill all followers' thing somewhere else, that was the first webby I could find that I have read where it is mentioned.

To the neutral the muslim faith and the people who follow it seems to cause most of the worlds problems that are around at the minute. If I am wrong then please correct me.

Also the "select few nutters" statement that is always dragged up doesnt hold water with me. There seems to be an awful lot seeing as they are only a few.

I think to the Christian West Islam is the big threat, especially since the end of the cold war. It wouldn't suprise me if the Koran did say something along the lines of destroy al followers of all faiths. It's actually something that in essence all the Abrahamic religions have in common, none of them really recognise the legitimacy of the others and want to make sure that they are the one true faith. It's all to do with interpretation really, with most faiths conversion is more important than destruction, which is probably where Islam is winning whatever war is out there as it is the worlds fastest growing religion and although i personally don't get it a lot of people seem to.

It's all quite relative as well. To most muslim nations the US is seen as the greatest threat with their history of cultural imperialism and waging war on soverign states.

Although in an interesting irony, the worlds most peaceful and inclusive religion is actually an offshoot of islam (Bahá'í)

 

[gmloki]

The IRA were drawn from the catholic community, but their objectives were/are nationalist, not religious. In fact, the modern IRA's roots are Marxist. The Christian militia groups in the US don't carry out bombings (with one big exception) and generally are about being left alone by Federal government rather than religious conviction. The Tamils are fighting a war on Ethnic, not religious lines.

No-one's arguing that Islam is the cause of all the world's woes and that there aren't any other nutjobs out there, but what's different about hard-core Islam is that its objectives are incompatible with our way of life; you can negotiate with someone who's aims are about ethnicity or national identity or territory; its a bit more difficult with someone who basically says convert or die (which is Wahabism in a nutshell).

Snip...


Bottom line IMHO is that no religion stands up to close scrutiny, but whereas Christianity is prepared to debate this with its critics Islam lacks the self-confidence to do the same. What they need is an Islamic Martin Luther nailing his theses to a Mosque door somewhere. Problem is he'd probably get his head cut off.

A very fair assesment. The problem is Islamic nationalism. Thats is the danger when you have religion and politics so intrinsicly linked. As Ayatollah Khamene famously said Islam is Politics. Therefore the current indignation is often legitimised on religious and/or political grounds.

That is why Islamic nationalism is not compatible with our way of life. You can thank our small army of home grown terrorists for this. There is no other reason why someone would put their own life and the life of their countrymen below that of their Religous brothers

 

[Trem]

I think to the Christian West Islam is the big threat, especially since the end of the cold war. It wouldn't suprise me if the Koran did say something along the lines of destroy al followers of all faiths. It's actually something that in essence all the Abrahamic religions have in common, none of them really recognise the legitimacy of the others and want to make sure that they are the one true faith. It's all to do with interpretation really, with most faiths conversion is more important than destruction, which is probably where Islam is winning whatever war is out there as it is the worlds fastest growing religion and although i personally don't get it a lot of people seem to.

It's all quite relative as well. To most muslim nations the US is seen as the greatest threat with their history of cultural imperialism and waging war on soverign states.

Although in an interesting irony, the worlds most peaceful and inclusive religion is actually an offshoot of islam (Bahá'í)

Cheers for that reply. Sensible and calm(unlike me sometimes).

I won't change the way i feel and i don't expect anyone else to but it is nice to discuss things with people who have other feelings on touchy matters.

 

[yaruar]

A very fair assesment. The problem is Islamic nationalism. Thats is the danger when you have religion and politics so intrinsicly linked. As Ayatollah Khamene famously said Islam is Politics. Therefore the current indignation is often legitimised on religious and/or political grounds.

That is why Islamic nationalism is not compatible with our way of life. You can thank our small army of home grown terrorists for this. There is no other reason why someone would put their own life and the life of their countrymen below that of their Religous brothers

I was thinking abou tthis earlier and looking back on a theory i'd had a while ago. I think the problem is that Islam is still a young religion and therefore is very defensive of it's faith and also still at the stage where it's not been questioned enough. Islam is approximately 1400 years old. When christianity was that age it wasn't all that different. Gods word was final. The spanish inquisition was in full force in the 1600's.

Maybe that is the problem. A young religion is growing and making it's mark, but it just hasn't matured enough yet to question itself.....

 

[throdgrain]

The freindly face of Islam

 

[Guest]

stop his housing benefit and throw his 18 kids and fat wives out of their houses and tell them to fuck right off jack or abdul or whatever the fuck he is called, as soon as you stop givinbg them money the hatred goes out the window, "look, i know i am a bit of an islamic extremist who saide that the pope should die, but is it ok if i cloaim like fuck off the state and live in the UK as no one will take me anywhere else, they cant afford me"


C_UNTS

the lot of them

EDIT

 

[throdgrain]

hehe I couldnt agree more

 

[Will]

stop his housing benefit and throw his 18 kids and fat wives out of their houses and tell them to fuck right off jack or abdul or whatever the fuck he is called, as soon as you stop givinbg them money the hatred goes out the window, "look, i know i am a bit of an islamic extremist who saide that the pope should die, but is it ok if i cloaim like fuck off the state and live in the UK as no one will take me anywhere else, they cant afford me"


C_UNTS

the lot of them

EDIT

The 39-year-old lawyer organised demonstrations against the publication of cartoons of Mohammed in February in Denmark. Protesters carried placards declaring "Behead Those Who Insult Islam".

 

[Raven]

those type of weirdos should be stuck in a big oil tanker and sunk at sea.

 

[gmloki]

I was thinking abou tthis earlier and looking back on a theory i'd had a while ago. I think the problem is that Islam is still a young religion and therefore is very defensive of it's faith and also still at the stage where it's not been questioned enough. Islam is approximately 1400 years old. When christianity was that age it wasn't all that different. Gods word was final. The spanish inquisition was in full force in the 1600's.

Maybe that is the problem. A young religion is growing and making it's mark, but it just hasn't matured enough yet to question itself.....

Hmm possibly. Their are some startling parrallels of the behaviour demonstrated by Islam and Christianity of years gone by

 

[Bodhi]

I was going to post a long and reasoned reply to all this, but then I realised a) I can't be bothered and b)arguing about which religion is in the right is the grown up version of arguing which superhero is bestest. It's all fairly moot cos we're in essence arguing which mythical being is right. Can we not just have a big argument over who'd win a fight Robocop or Terminator? Those arguments are a damn sight more fun and at the end of the day, just as based in reality as any religion you care to mention that doesn't involve some sort of deity. In fact fuck it here's an even better argument - who'd win in a fight, God or Superman?

Now I see why I was told never to discuss religion or politics with freinds - cos both are mind bogglingly dull and pointless, and if you talk about them all the time no one will want to be your freinds anyway.

 

[Debaser]

The freindly face of Islam

Heh, when I heard those quotes as sound-bites on the news last night, it made me think of the Nazi sketch from ‘That Mitchell & Webb Look’ last week…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO5WoLnOOlU

 

[Tom]

those type of weirdos should be stuck in a big oil tanker and sunk at sea.

Including Brooky, for being a silly twat.

 

[Trem]

I was thinking abou tthis earlier and looking back on a theory i'd had a while ago. I think the problem is that Islam is still a young religion and therefore is very defensive of it's faith and also still at the stage where it's not been questioned enough. Islam is approximately 1400 years old. When christianity was that age it wasn't all that different. Gods word was final. The spanish inquisition was in full force in the 1600's.

Maybe that is the problem. A young religion is growing and making it's mark, but it just hasn't matured enough yet to question itself.....

I disagree totally with that. People aren't as backward now as they were thousands of years ago, and if that is truly the case then its once again the people to blame for basically not being all there mentally. Man has moved on hugely and has come to realise that the original bible/koran etc is really a load of old bollocks designed and written to keep the people of the day in line.

We know this why don't they?

It just comes across as another excuse for their uncivilised(sp) rantings.

 

[rynnor]

I disagree totally with that. People aren't as backward now as they were thousands of years ago, and if that is truly the case then its once again the people to blame for basically not being all there mentally. Man has moved on hugely and has come to realise that the original bible/koran etc is really a load of old bollocks designed and written to keep the people of the day in line.

We know this why don't they?

It just comes across as another excuse for their uncivilised(sp) rantings.

Islam isnt an intrinsically bad faith no more so than christianity - its all down to how people interpret it - at the moment a negative and insular version has become popular.

I dont think its an education thing as people in the west are also susceptible - the problem is that evil has always been a convenient way to manipulate the masses and gain power - its far easier to make people fear and hate than to make them tolerant and happy.

The harsher the interpretation of Islam the more popular it has become - this is something the priests have realised and now they compete to out extreme each other - there are still moderates with a different interpretation but they just arent popular - especially amongst the young.

The Muslim community will have to sort itself out - they must make it clear that extremist actions are wrong and morally un-acceptable or their faith will turn into a medieval monstrosity.

 

[Chilly]

Personally I think that the current problems with the pension scheme, id cards, the NHS, the rail network and energy are far more important (seriously, how many british people die every year from terrorism?? Fuck all.) and deserve our attention more than this farse.

This is all government fuelled bollocks to try and make us ignore and forget how shit our own back garden is so that we support these pointless, expensive and counter-productive laws and sets of legislation to deal with "the muslim" issue. Whatever the fuck that is.

Think proportionally about what you argue about. More people die to sex accidents than to terrorism every year (this is a complete guess and refers to british people) yet you dont see 60% (probably an under-estimate) of *all* news stories relating to it? It's all a load of fucking bollocks.

WHO FUCKING CARES!

 

[Guest]

I was going to post a long and reasoned reply to all this, but then I realised a) I can't be bothered and b)arguing about which religion is in the right is the grown up version of arguing which superhero is bestest. It's all fairly moot cos we're in essence arguing which mythical being is right. Can we not just have a big argument over who'd win a fight Robocop or Terminator? Those arguments are a damn sight more fun and at the end of the day, just as based in reality as any religion you care to mention that doesn't involve some sort of deity. In fact fuck it here's an even better argument - who'd win in a fight, God or Superman?

Now I see why I was told never to discuss religion or politics with freinds - cos both are mind bogglingly dull and pointless, and if you talk about them all the time no one will want to be your freinds anyway.

superman everytiome, god smells

 

[Trem]

The Muslim community will have to sort itself out - they must make it clear that extremist actions are wrong and morally un-acceptable or their faith will turn into a medieval monstrosity.

Good point.

It annoys me more when I think of the nutjobs in America, we can call them inbreds and stupid but mention anything like that towards the Muslims and its classed as racist......its correct to say that its racist you see, but its ok to say what we want about white american cults.....I SAID CULTS!!!

 

[GDW]

The Muslim community will have to sort itself out - they must make it clear that extremist actions are wrong and morally un-acceptable or their faith will turn into a medieval monstrosity.

...a bit like Christianity then.