Politics The General Election 2015

[Scouse]

listen to them then offer a counter argument.

Of course that's already happening, but the legions of retards that say they are looking for reasoned argument but in reality are looking for simple answers, like those provided by UKIP, are the reason they're garnering support.

Ample argument has been put forward. UKIP supporters don't like the arguments and are selecting what makes them feel good. Simple as that.

Are you open to an evidence-based argument on this very subject - or will you do what you usually do when I post something like this, and dismiss it?

I find it a lot scarier that there are people out there who think the rest of us are too thick to make a decision, and are happy to take it out of our hands.

Actually - I'd fight for your right to vote but I do think you're too thick to understand complex argument because, despite repeatedly denying that I'd take away your right to vote, that I'm a supporter of democracy, yadda yadda yadda (for actual years now) you still spout the same old shit...

Your ability to harp on about "the guardian mob", like that's anything other than a reactionary over-simplistic non-existent demographic, is evidence that you like to pigeonhole everything to make the arguments nice and simple, so your ready-reckon "common-sense" view of the polticial landscape doesn't have to take up too much of your important time to give you the the nailed-on answers you want...

 

[old.user4556]

It depends on how they do it Bodhi.

The Scottish referendum encouraged some of the best political debate I've ever seen in my life - the level of engagement was incredible with school kids as young as 16 right up to old gits in their 80s. You had politicians on street corners, campaigns in every town, regular town hall sessions from every corner of the country, televised debates, bluff and counter bluff, argument and counter argument. It really was a fabulously stimulating event. Do I think we'll see the same thing for the Euro referendum? Nope.

 

[Scouse]

I'm all for a meaningful vote on meaningful reform on the EU. But a pointless, damaging in-out referendum? It's *clearly* retarded to damage the economy for no good outcome but the lack of the "retard" option is playing nicely into the hands of the racist nationalists at UKIP.

And whining about people calling racists racist is just putting your fingers in your ears rather than going "you know what - UKIP really *are* racist - lets discard them out of hand like we should...

 

[Scouse]

Do I think we'll see the same thing for the Euro referendum? Nope.

I agree. I don't think we can see the same thing because an in-out referendum isn't what's needed.

Reform is needed, and a binary referendum is completely the wrong thing to bring that about.

If the question was "does the EU need reform, yes/no" then 100% of people would vote yes. But we already know that and there's pressure to make that happen.

What's actually needed is patience from the electorate - not a dangerous jump to a racist nationalist party like UKIP.

 

[Talivar]

The problem for me is the whole thing is a massive grey area because in an ideal world we would all have an equal say in what happens and would all do whats best for humanity as a whole. The reality though is vastly different and has been evidenced by thousands of years of history. We Humans very rarely do things as a whole which benefit our species. We do things that benefit us as individuals and this is often to the detriment of the species or society as a whole. Too many people do not understand the choices, do not care about the choices or simply believe/desire to make their own choices no matter the overall implication or cost to other people. This whole thread has been full of I benefit best from this party so i will vote for them vs nope your wrong i benefit from this party so i will vote for them instead OR I understand this situation and you dont so im right vs no you think you understand it but its me that really understands it so im right!
Im aware im probably falling into the same trap myself here and that is the flaw with us as a species, deep down we know whats right or wrong but we just cant keep our mouths shut and instead go with what we feel is right

 

[Job]

The xenophobia people feel for foreigners is no different to your generalisation and distaste of people you think are Ukipers.
They decide on the headlines of the Sun and then look at the tits on page 3, they are also the backbone of the working class, the people who it hits the hardest, not the middle and upper classes who get Oxford trained high earners wearing suits, they deal with entrenched culture, people who only mix through necessity of the work place.
UKIP will lose votes now to the Tories because people are shit scared of a labour government who are going to be in a coalition with people who are seriously going to scrap Trident when most countries in Europe have US nukes, pointed at Russia on it's land.

 

[Scouse]

The xenophobia people feel for foreigners is no different to your generalisation and distaste of people you think are Ukipers.

They are very different things.

One is, lets be gentle and agree on "xenophobia" - a choice based on where people are from.

The other is a dislike of people who choose UKIP as an intellectual choice - when choosing UKIP is actually anti-intellectual.

 

[Gwadien]

The xenophobia people feel for foreigners is no different to your generalisation and distaste of people you think are Ukipers.
They decide on the headlines of the Sun and then look at the tits on page 3, they are also the backbone of the working class, the people who it hits the hardest, not the middle and upper classes who get Oxford trained high earners wearing suits, they deal with entrenched culture, people who only mix through necessity of the work place.
UKIP will lose votes now to the Tories because people are shit scared of a labour government who are going to be in a coalition with people who are seriously going to scrap Trident when most countries in Europe have US nukes, pointed at Russia on it's land.

The Tories are having a field day over the Labour-SNP stuff.

But again.

What about the Tories-UKIP.

I'd love to see the proper pro-EU Tory voters on this forum who are crying about the SNP get a Tory-UKIP coalition which UKIPs only demand is to leave Europe, and they get it.

I'm not saying that coalitions shouldn't happen, I'm saying that if the Tories are telling Labour to say they won't team up with the SNP then the Tories should promise they won't team up with UKIP.

 

[Raven]

Something so big as instant leaving would never be on the cards, that's just Labour scaremongering because they have nothing else to say.

A coalition with the Tories and UKIP wouldn't be that bad, certainly better than Labour/anything. Simply because, as been demonstrated this parliament, the small part of a coalition has about as much use as a third nipple.

 

[Talivar]

What party is best for both private sector and public sector workers?, atm it seems many private Sector favor Conservative and Public Sector favor Labour

 

[DaGaffer]

I find the comparisons with Scotland interesting too - there it was also interesting to get all the facts about Scotland's relationship with the UK (and see that overall, it was a good thing), so would be great to do a similar exercise with us and the EU. Yet when Scotland had a referendum to split from a larger union to the south they didn't feel they were getting a good deal from, it was a triumphant display of democracy in action. Yet when we ask for the same thing, we're told we're too stupid to make a decision? Am I the only one that sees the socking great big contradiction there?

To be honest I had some big issues with the Scottish referendum as well, because in reality it wasn't democratic. What was actually at stake was the breakup of the United Kingdom, but 90% of the United Kingdom didn't get a say in the matter, and was actually repeatedly told to butt out of Scottish affairs when they got involved. In the case of the UK leaving the EU, even though the EU would be far less impacted than the rUK would have been affected by Scotland's loss, I have no doubt the EU itself will told to piss off if it voices an opinion.

It depends on how they do it Bodhi.

The Scottish referendum encouraged some of the best political debate I've ever seen in my life - the level of engagement was incredible with school kids as young as 16 right up to old gits in their 80s. You had politicians on street corners, campaigns in every town, regular town hall sessions from every corner of the country, televised debates, bluff and counter bluff, argument and counter argument. It really was a fabulously stimulating event. Do I think we'll see the same thing for the Euro referendum? Nope.

It was a great political debate in Scotland, not so much everywhere else that was going to be affected, and as it turned out, it was a vote that shouldn't have been anywhere near as close as it was given that every one of the SNP's economic promises was flat out wrong.

 

[old.user4556]

It was a great political debate in Scotland

Thanks for clearing that up Captain Obvious.

Here's me thinking that ethnic minorities in Tower Hamlets were fucking glued to it. I WAS SO WRONG.

 

[DaGaffer]

Thanks for clearing that up Captain Obvious.

Here's me thinking that ethnic minorities in Tower Hamlets were fucking glued to it. I WAS SO WRONG.

Thank you for demonstrating my point perfectly (and showing the power of a selective quotation). If Scotland had gone, those ethnic minorities in Tower Hamlets would have been economically and politically affected, but the Scottish view was it was none of their business.

 

[old.user4556]

Gaff you're doing you usual again, how can you not see it? - you take a point made in a thread and add your own utterly pointless spin / opinion on it to feed your own conceit.

In case you missed it, Bodhi was drawing similarities between the Euro and Scottish referendums which are entirely different given the political activity (as I detailed above) ahead of said referendum. I do not believe or foresee the same level of enthusiasm, logical debate, street politics, family arguments (I could go on and on) when it comes to the Euro referendum - that was the point I was making - that will be sadly lacking in the Euro referendum. Your point about the SNP's economic argument - what the fuck are you actually talking about, and what has that got to do with the price of a loaf? Who mentioned anything about the SNP, or their economic follies? Bodhi and I were talking about the the difference of attitudes between a referendum on Scotland breaking away from the UK, and the Euro referendum.

 

[Mabs]

 

[DaGaffer]

Gaff you're doing you usual again, how can you not see it? - you take a point made in a thread and add your own utterly pointless spin / opinion on it to feed your own conceit.

In case you missed it, Bodhi was drawing similarities between the Euro and Scottish referendums which are entirely different given the political activity (as I detailed above) ahead of said referendum. I do not believe or foresee the same level of enthusiasm, logical debate, street politics, family arguments (I could go on and on) when it comes to the Euro referendum - that was the point I was making - that will be sadly lacking in the Euro referendum. Your point about the SNP's economic argument - what the fuck are you actually talking about, and what has that got to do with the price of a loaf? Who mentioned anything about the SNP, or their economic follies? Bodhi and I were talking about the the difference of attitudes between a referendum on Scotland breaking away from the UK, and the Euro referendum.

What "conceit"? Bodhi was suggesting that the Scottish referendum was a great example of democracy in action, so why should a Euro vote be any different? I pointed out my view that it wasn't a great example of democracy in action. If you want me to put this into words of one syllable, simple questions about complex issues are not good. The Scottish referendum was not good (and has it solved anything? Has it fuck. The SNP will keep at it rather than fucking off for a generation as they promised). The EU referendum will not be good.

 

[old.user4556]

*reads Bodhi's post over and over* - not that I give a fuck, or it even matters in the context of what I was talking about, but where does he say that?

Relative to my own post and not your irrelevant bollocks, that is why I went on to illustrate that in Scotland there was a very thorough engagement across a very wide range of people across the country (before you get on your pedantic high horse, by country I mean Scotland). Allow me to expand my post replying to Bodhi by saying that if the entire United Kingdom could replicate that level of engagement for the Euro referendum as was seen locally in Scotland, then that (in my opinion) would be a good thing. As already stated, I do not believe we will see that.

By the way, you're still rattling on putting forward points that are totally irrelevant - Scottish referendum hasn't solved anything? Again, what the fuck has that go to do with "having a very thorough, 'street-corner', town hall political knees-up would be good to discuss the Euro referendum" as was being discussed? I am not disagreeing with you, you are disagreeing with me on things I didn't even say.

 

[DaGaffer]

*reads Bodhi's post over and over* - not that I give a fuck, or it even matters in the context of what I was talking about, but where does he say that?

Relative to my own post and not your irrelevant bollocks, that is why I went on to illustrate that in Scotland there was a very thorough engagement across a very wide range of people across the country (before you get on your pedantic high horse, by country I mean Scotland). Allow me to expand my post replying to Bodhi by saying that if the entire United Kingdom could replicate that level of engagement for the Euro referendum as was seen locally in Scotland, then that (in my opinion) would be a good thing. As already stated, I do not believe we will see that.

By the way, you're still rattling on putting forward points that are totally irrelevant - Scottish referendum hasn't solved anything? Again, what the fuck has that go to do with "having a very thorough, 'street-corner', town hall political knees-up would be good to discuss the Euro referendum" as was being discussed? I am not disagreeing with you, you are disagreeing with me on things I didn't even say.

Its right there in the quote!

Yet when Scotland had a referendum to split from a larger union to the south they didn't feel they were getting a good deal from, it was a triumphant display of democracy in action.

That's what I disagreed with. The fucking quote I had above my comment.

And sorry, my point is relevant because I've pointed out the EU referendum won't solve anything, even if there was a No, in exactly the same way it hasn't in Scotland. Great, you spent several months and a squillion quid to have a once in a generation vote on Scotland's future. And in five years time we'll find out "once in a generation" means once in however long it takes for the SNP to get the answer it wants. And the same thing will happen with the EU vote. UKIP won't go away, no-one's opinion will be changed, and the EU won't be reformed.

 

[Ormorof]

sounds like the Lisbon treaty referendum in Ireland

at least if it can get people involved it might mean that peoples opinion is actually registered, the scottish referendum had highest turnout of any election in UK since universal suffrage was introduced in UK (according to wikipedia!!)

In the last general election the non-voters could have formed the biggest party (by votes) - thats a staggering amount of people that are just not involved at all, yes its their own fault for not voting, but anything that gets them to the booths is a good thing!

 

[Bodhi]

Must admit this election campaign so far has been fucking depressing, so much politics of hate and envy. From what I can gather, ukip hate anyone who hasn't lived here for 17 generations (even though their leader has a German wife), Labour hate anyone rich (even though their leader has 2 kitchens), Green just hate modern civilization (and the rich, and anyone who doesn't support Greenpeace), whereas the Lib Dems just hate themselves. Only the Tories are being remotely positive, and even that is as long as you don't mention porn.

Bunch of arse if you ask me.

 

[Job]

Best election pic ever.

 

[Scouse]

 

[MYstIC G]

Why is it unbelievable? Ze Germans get their gas from Russia as well, which is far more unbelievable (Greece has always had ties to Russia because of the Orthodox Church).

People get gas from other people who have gas... ZOMG... Mind Blown...

 

[DaGaffer]

People get gas from other people who have gas... ZOMG... Mind Blown...

Will it is a bit weird to rely on a country that is happy to cut you off and let all your OAPs freeze if Putin is feeling cranky that day. And if you're German the Russians loathe you by default anyway.

 

[MYstIC G]

Will it is a bit weird to rely on a country that is happy to cut you off and let all your OAPs freeze if Putin is feeling cranky that day. And if you're German the Russians loathe you by default anyway.

Apologies, it wasn't a comment really at you but the level of the thread if that's the sort of thing that needs clarifying.

 

[Job]

The Greeks have found the money to pay off the loan and no one knows where they got it from except that in soviet Russia has your first born as guarantee.

 

[Ormorof]

has the liquid gas port opened in lithuania yet? That could mean a nice break from Russian gas for the baltics -of course it puts massive dependence on US instead which is not really much better, but there's already US troops in the NATO bases so why not

 

[old.user4556]

Just me exiting this thread:

 

[Raven]

hawt

 

[Raven]

Picture stolen from the daily mash, but I just can't stop laughing