Politics The General Election 2015

[Scouse]

What we should be thinking about if we're going to bother voting...

 

[Gumbo]

Edit: And raising the IHT ceiling is *still* a cut for the rich, whichever way you look at it.

Not necessarily, you can have poor beneficiaries of rich dead people. It's not the dead people being taxed, it's the ones getting the inheritance. In my case it could mean selling the home my Father built to a stranger out of money which he was already taxed on to pay the government a cut. I'm not rich. I have no savings at all and a little bit of debt and live in a rented house.

It's an arsehole of a tax.

 

[Job]

What we should be thinking about if we're going to bother voting...

Exactly what the scientific process is there for, to eradicate belief.
The number one complaint by climate sceptics is that belief has crept in.

 

[Ormorof]

I would have thought the opposite is the case since most climate scientists agree but the skeptics reject the evidence

 

[Raven]

Not necessarily reject the evidence, just how the evidence is being used and presented in the mass media. The climate will always change, always has. If it stopped changing I would be more concerned. Sea levels have changed massively in the last 2000 years, people just moved. Now that they can't do that because of permanent settlement and mapping its an issue.

 

[Gwadien]

Not necessarily, you can have poor beneficiaries of rich dead people. It's not the dead people being taxed, it's the ones getting the inheritance. In my case it could mean selling the home my Father built to a stranger out of money which he was already taxed on to pay the government a cut. I'm not rich. I have no savings at all and a little bit of debt and live in a rented house.

It's an arsehole of a tax.

I kind of agree, but it's the post-aristocracy rule philosophy isn't it - make your own way, don't inherit your wealth, it's done so much damage to our tourism and heritage, but also raised quite a bit of money.

But in a similar kind of respect, it's kind of pointless too, if you're a clever aristocrat, you don't have your wealth in land & buildings, you have trusts & stuff

 

[Raven]

This has nothing at all about aristocrats. Its normal people passing their home or (retentively tiny) estate onto their kids.

Why should something that has been taxed at every level then get taxed yet again? Often forcing people to sell on property. Fuck that. My mum's house, who she inherited from her father, who inherited from his father and so on and so forth would end up having to get sold under current rules, the house's financial worth doesn't really come into it, its the family home. Its not massive (its actually depressingly small) but because of its location it is valuable to commuters. Inheritance tax was already paid on it some 5 years ago or so. When my mum carks it in 20 years or so tax will have to be paid again.

Increasing the cap benefits all sorts of families and doesn't effect the rich.

 

[Scouse]

The number one complaint by climate sceptics is that belief has crept in.

Yep it has - into climate sceptic thinking.

If they could refute the evidence of the IPCC then they would - it would be the strongest argument they could make.

But they can't. So fuck them.

 

[Bodhi]

Strange how Mann's Hockey Stick graph and the 97% consensus paper have both been torn apart many times, yet the True Believers are still struggling to explain the 18 year pause in warming.

However this is mainly because climate science has bugger all to do with actual science. Scientists don't start with a conclusion then work backwards, massage the data so it fits that's conclusion, rely on computer models rather than observational data, or get their mates to review papers for them. And they certainly never claim that the science is "settled " - witness Einstein being proved wrong recently. Mind you, it's not exactly surprising, considering the IPCC has very few scientists actually on, mostly being made up of activists.

I'm awaiting the Facepalm from someone who clearly knows more than everyone about anything.....

 

[Raven]

Nice to see that idiot from the Greens just making it up as she goes along again. 20% of the population are on less than minimum wage apparently.

I bet those people who publish employers who pay less than minimum wage are feeling pretty silly now...

 

[Bodhi]

Nice to see that idiot from the Greens just making it up as she goes along again. 20% of the population are on less than minimum wage apparently.

I bet those people who publish employers who pay less than minimum wage are feeling pretty silly now...

Reminds me of a great quote I heard about from a Trade Unionist in the 70s. Something along the lines of "We will not rest until everyone is earning above the average wage"

Umm...

 

[Ormorof]

Strange how Mann's Hockey Stick graph and the 97% consensus paper have both been torn apart many times, yet the True Believers are still struggling to explain the 18 year pause in warming.

However this is mainly because climate science has bugger all to do with actual science. Scientists don't start with a conclusion then work backwards, massage the data so it fits that's conclusion, rely on computer models rather than observational data, or get their mates to review papers for them. And they certainly never claim that the science is "settled " - witness Einstein being proved wrong recently. Mind you, it's not exactly surprising, considering the IPCC has very few scientists actually on, mostly being made up of activists.

I'm awaiting the Facepalm from someone who clearly knows more than everyone about anything.....

well they start with a hypothesis, then make predictions, then experiment, then analyse results, then draw conclusions... its called the scientific method

i do agree the IPCC is a broken institution, the people involved in the massaging of data should simply be sacked and disgraced

and anyone who claims any science is settled is a fool (see the famous "we have discovered all there is to discover in physics" quotes from the 1800s)

the idea of an 18 year hiatus is bandied around a lot but even a cursory glance through google scholar finds hundreds of articles about the temperatures in the oceans continuing to increase, just because its snowing a bit more in the UK doesnt mean the rest of the world doesnt exist.

whether this is because of humans or not seems beside the point - we either react or a large amount of people will suffer (and it will likely be those of us living in northern climates without much high ground so we have a selfish reason to invest in it )


anyhoooooo back to politics, if the greens have evidence to back up the 20% of population is paid less than minimum wage isnt that a cause for concern? if they are pulled out of their arse or the stats include people who are not paid at all then its of course rubbish, but anyone paid less than the minimum hourly wage is well, paid illegally no?

 

[Raven]

They most certainly are. They are also fined and shamed.

Its a made up stat and she probably meant the living wage...and even then 20% seems high.

She has form for being catastrophically wrong or just making stuff up though.

 

[Gumbo]

It's entirely possible that she's lumping in those people who are low paid directors or self employed to which the minimum wage rules don't apply. These people tend to be like that through choice as they are thinking long term and trying to better their lot.

I worked for 8 months at my job without being paid at all, and then got paid only 8 months out of 12 the year after. I broke no laws.

The minimum wage isn't always a great idea and Ed's idea of making it £8 overnight is, like most of his policies, a fucking stupid idea which will lead to rising unemployment in an instant.

 

[Job]

Didn't watch it, but all I can say is that Nick Clegg clearly one the last one.

 

[Embattle]

I was never going to watch it and quite frankly even without watching it the idea that someone decides from doing so would be rather worrying.

 

[Job]

So Farage gets lambasted for suggesting over half of new HIV diagnosis are from immigrants.
They drag out a HIV asylum seeker who was livid to hear this accusation because when he fled from his country he had no idea the treatment was free....yeah fukin right....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-to-put-british-patients-first-10156546.html

 

[Ormorof]

Actually the stats show most are not treated for years after they arrive

Which hardly seems likely if they were benefits tourists

Ironically his misguided attack may increase number of people that do come to UK for treatment now that they are aware its free

 

[MYstIC G]

It's actually the (at the time) EDL leader driving through a muslim community. The punch is unnecessary, I agree, but it's not very suprising to be honest.

So has the person who threw the punch now got a criminal record then?

 

[Job]

Well thank god for that, Blair has stepped forward and killed the Labour party by 100% endorsing Millipede, he topped it off by suggesting that the clueless masses are too stupid to make a sensible decision on Europe.
I never thought he would let the truth out...what an idiot

 

[Raven]

That warmongering scum needs to stay out of politics and just go to prison.

 

[Gwadien]

Well thank god for that, Blair has stepped forward and killed the Labour party by 100% endorsing Millipede, he topped it off by suggesting that the clueless masses are too stupid to make a sensible decision on Europe.
I never thought he would let the truth out...what an idiot

Er

He's completely right though.

 

[Raven]

Then it is the job of the politicians to argue the case for staying in (or out) and convince people to make the correct choice. And tell the truth, not the complete lot of bollocks that is coming from every party.

As it is, people who want out have a case, Europe is a mess. It needs to change.

If something is a complete waste of time then you don't stick with it with the hope it might get better, you either try to fix it or you fuck it off.

 

[Job]

Er

He's completely right though.

Annnnnd that's what I said in the last sentence

 

[DaGaffer]

Then it is the job of the politicians to argue the case for staying in (or out) and convince people to make the correct choice. And tell the truth, not the complete lot of bollocks that is coming from every party.

As it is, people who want out have a case, Europe is a mess. It needs to change.

If something is a complete waste of time then you don't stick with it with the hope it might get better, you either try to fix it or you fuck it off.

The problem is, as Blair actually said in his speech; “Nationalism is a powerful sentiment and, let that genie out of the bottle and it is a Herculean task to get it back in the bottle, and reason alone struggles.” He's absolutely right. This isn't a rational debate; most of the stuff coming out of UKIP is out and out bollocks, but its appealing bollocks; it gives people simple answers to complicated questions, which people absolutely love. It was actually a really good speech by Blair (my personal view of the man aside), he showed a perfect example of the problem when showing the SNP's ludicrous popularity, which has no bearing on the economic case they made during the referendum, which would have been a total disaster for Scotland and was actually proven, not six weeks after the referendum! Cameron now faces the same issue over the EU referendum; even if people have the common sense to stay in the EU, reformed or not, unless its like a 90/10 in favour, the issue won't go away. And just like Scotland leaving the UK, the UK leaving the EU would be a disaster.

 

[Raven]

But what if (and it seems to be the case) the threat of leaving the EU is the only thing that will force it to change for the better? Becoming even a little democratic might be a nice start. Being financially responsible another step in the right direction and then they can think about not being utterly retarded.

I don't disagree that leaving the EU would be a disaster, we are part of Europe now.

...But frankly I would be happy to see it burn out or principle.

 

[Raven]

Far too long for an edit.

Even if people want out of Europe in a referendum then that is our democratic right, regardless of whether it is the correct decision or not. The Europe now is not the Europe that was proposed all those years ago and I think it is right that we have a say on being part of a federal Europe. It is the politicians job to present the will of the people and put their arguments to the people. Stop with the useless sound bites and mis-represented statistics and lets start with some actual real facts.

I am a firm believer that a federal Europe could work, even with a single European government, currency, health system, military etc and it could be something great. We are a long way from that though and Europe isn't even heading in a particularly good direct. Stupid decisions being made by people who are not particularly suited to making those decisions and certainly not democratically accountable or elected.

If the powers that be want to continue down the path they are going then fuck it. Break it, let it burn.

 

[DaGaffer]

But what if (and it seems to be the case) the threat of leaving the EU is the only thing that will force it to change for the better? Becoming even a little democratic might be a nice start. Being financially responsible another step in the right direction and then they can think about not being utterly retarded.

I don't disagree that leaving the EU would be a disaster, we are part of Europe now.

...But frankly I would be happy to see it burn out or principle.

I think its desperately naive, and not a little arrogant, to the think the rest of the EU would give a fuck. There would definitely be some countries who wouldn't want the UK gone (Ireland, some of the eastern countries, maybe Denmark), but the heavy hitters would just see the opportunity to take business from the UK, and frankly the UK is nothing but a pain in the arse for the EU "project", and even leaving wouldn't cause any of the problems that a country leaving the eurozone would. The UK has a lot more to lose than the EU does.

 

[Raven]

You know the UK public are not unique in wanting a referendum on membership? Including France and Germany.

How long do you think a Europe without Germany, France and the UK would last?

Besides which, you are completely missing the point. Right or wrong it is up to the people to decide their future, not the Tories, Labour and UKIP.

Also, the requirement for a referendum is just muddying the waters, get that out the way and then see where we are. Its been promised so lets just get it done. Start the debate properly instead of the bollocks coming out of Westminster.

Its frankly bizarre that many people think that wanting a democratic referendum on membership is the same thing as wanting out of Europe. It isn't. Maybe most pro Euro people fear their argument is a little weak? Or just not getting through? Maybe deep down they also think Europe is a pile of crap that is capable of being far better.

 

[DaGaffer]

You know the UK public are not unique in wanting a referendum on membership? Including France and Germany.

How long do you think a Europe without Germany, France and the UK would last?

Besides which, you are completely missing the point. Right or wrong it is up to the people to decide their future, not the Tories, Labour and UKIP.

Also, the requirement for a referendum is just muddying the waters, get that out the way and then see where we are. Its been promised so lets just get it done. Start the debate properly instead of the bollocks coming out of Westminster.

Its frankly bizarre that many people think that wanting a democratic referendum on membership is the same thing as wanting out of Europe. It isn't. Maybe most pro Euro people fear their argument is a little weak? Or just not getting through? Maybe deep down they also think Europe is a pile of crap that is capable of being far better.

See previous post. A. The referendum won't change anything even if its a vote to stay in; and B. It won't be about the institutions of the EU and reform (how could it be?), it will be entirely about "immigrants are bad m'kay?".