Politics The General Election 2015

[Job]

Labour have gone up 3 points after saying they would tax the rich more.
This is now the general election

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882rTysV-go&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[Gumbo]

Not necessarily, you can have poor beneficiaries of rich dead people. It's not the dead people being taxed, it's the ones getting the inheritance. In my case it could mean selling the home my Father built to a stranger out of money which he was already taxed on to pay the government a cut. I'm not rich. I have no savings at all and a little bit of debt and live in a rented house.

It's an arsehole of a tax.

This from the Tories today..

I remember so well the day my first son was born - and in that moment, when you become a parent, absolutely everything changes.

Everything you do is for your children.

You've got this huge responsibility not just to love them, but to provide for them throughout their life.

And you want to know that even after you're gone, you can still provide for them.

Because there is no more important kind of security than knowing your family is going to be OK financially.

And that is why the next Conservative Government will take the family home out of inheritance tax.

There you go, another sensible policy.

 

[Gumbo]

FFS, I'll start to sound like a Party Political Broadcast...

A Labour idea...


At the same time.....

We should throw a ton more money at childcare, which is an anti tory idea really. If people want to work then their childcare should be entirely funded up to 40 hours a week. Currently every 3 year old can get up to 15 hours a week funded.

Well, they're saying 30 hours for 3 and 4 year olds, which is a nice big step in the right direction, helps those parents who want to get back into work, and will help Pre Schools too. Fantastic idea.

Meanwhile Idiot Ed champions the idiot idea of raising the minimum wage straight up to £8 which will lead to massive amounts of job losses, whilst The tories say they'll take anyone on the minimum wage out of income tax entirely. This will mean that people stay employed and have more money in their pocket than raising it to £8 and risking jobs.

There really is only one choice.

 

[Bodhi]

One thing I'm not entirely sure of in this election is the "hard working people" and "the rich" rhetoric. Out of interest, at what point do you stop being hard working and become rich? And do I gather it's not possible to be both rich and hard working?

 

[Scouse]

minimum wage straight up to £8 which will lead to massive amounts of job losses, whilst The tories say they'll take anyone on the minimum wage out of income tax entirely. This will mean that people stay employed and have more money in their pocket than raising it to £8 and risking jobs.

That's a crock of shit tho isn't it.

The minimum wage never lead to job losses and min wage rises haven't led to job losses.

However, people on minimum wage get top-up benefits - the taxpayer pays for them to the tune of about £11bn/year apparently.

Tesco's on the other hand makes something like 4bn/year profit - that goes to shareholders. They could pay all their workers £11 / hour minimum and still make 3bn/year profit.

So why are we burning up taxpayers money to subsidise big business?

 

[Raven]

Tescos could, yeah. A lot of small businesses, not so much.

 

[Exioce]

There really is only one choice.

It may seem self evident to you, but some taxes are fairer than others. Here's an argument for inheritance tax, by Ben Goldacre:

"All tax is annoying. Here are 6 reasons why inheritance tax is okay.
The tories have announced they're going to raise the threshold for inheritance tax to (effectively) £1 million. The public discussion on this has been moronic. Obviously all tax is annoying. Here are my top 6 reasons why inheritance tax is equitable, moral, and sensible.

1. We’ve lived through an era of appalling growth in income and asset inequality. Locking that in for a 2nd generation is very bad news.

2. Growth in house value is generously excluded from capital gains because you need to live in it. When you’re dead, that excuse is gone.

3. Housing wealth derives from the value of the land, which rises because of the actions of everyone in the country, not you.

4. Caring for the old is very costly. The old didn’t foresee this, and didn’t pay tax to fund it. Housing wealth will do nicely.

5. A country where you get ahead best by luck and inheritance, rather than hard work, is a lazy unfair country that will fail.

6. I totally get the primordial desire to do your best for your kids, but if your plan is to do that with banknotes, you’re doing it wrong."

 

[Job]

I am confused as to why people are still buying houses, surely they have all been bought by now.

 

[Scouse]

Tescos could, yeah. A lot of small businesses, not so much.

The predicted minimum wage disaster didn't materialise in that sector either despite their higher vulnerability.

The extra few pence on the wage isn't enough to make the vast majority of businesses sweat - if it does then that business is already on a knife edge that a different external influence is going to kill.

The bullshit arguments about minimum wages have been proven to be bullshit wherever in the world they've been instigated.

 

[Bodhi]

It may seem self evident to you, but some taxes are fairer than others. Here's an argument for inheritance tax, by Ben Goldacre:

"All tax is annoying. Here are 6 reasons why inheritance tax is okay.
The tories have announced they're going to raise the threshold for inheritance tax to (effectively) £1 million. The public discussion on this has been moronic. Obviously all tax is annoying. Here are my top 6 reasons why inheritance tax is equitable, moral, and sensible.

1. We’ve lived through an era of appalling growth in income and asset inequality. Locking that in for a 2nd generation is very bad news.

2. Growth in house value is generously excluded from capital gains because you need to live in it. When you’re dead, that excuse is gone.

3. Housing wealth derives from the value of the land, which rises because of the actions of everyone in the country, not you.

4. Caring for the old is very costly. The old didn’t foresee this, and didn’t pay tax to fund it. Housing wealth will do nicely.

5. A country where you get ahead best by luck and inheritance, rather than hard work, is a lazy unfair country that will fail.

6. I totally get the primordial desire to do your best for your kids, but if your plan is to do that with banknotes, you’re doing it wrong."

Interesting. So if it such an equitable and moral tax, why did Mr Fairness and his brother go to such lengths to avoid paying it?

Also interesting that a tax can be described as moral. Tax is a financial construct, and has bugger all to do with morals in my book.

 

[Mabs]

costs of stuff goes up
thus tax needs to go up
the people who have more are the people who should pay more
the people who have more are the ones who control those who make the rules
lets nobble the people who cant fight back
oh look it didnt fix it this time, quelle surprise...
goto 1

 

[Bodhi]

The top 1% already pay around 30% of income tax, and all they seem to get in return is people queueing up to see how they can contribute more. I can see why they get a but fed up and looks for creative ways to get out of paying it.

Maybe if we stopped pissing so much money up the wall on foreign aid to countries with space programs, the frankly comical amount of waste in the NHS and PFI we wouldn't be so desperate to put people's taxes up.

 

[Mabs]

The top 1% already pay around 30% of income tax, and all they seem to get in return is people queueing up to see how they can contribute more. I can see why they get a but fed up and looks for creative ways to get out of paying it.

Maybe if we stopped pissing so much money up the wall on foreign aid to countries with space programs, the frankly comical amount of waste in the NHS and PFI we wouldn't be so desperate to put people's taxes up.

or just enforce the current tax system fully ?

 

[Scouse]

The top 1% already pay around 30% of income tax.

But they pay less as a percentage of their earnings. For argument's sake say 10%.

The fact that they pay 30% of the income tax, despite being taxed at about 10%, speaks more to the obscene amount of wealth they horde for themselves than some non-existent generosity.

Tax of course is a moral issue.

or just enforce the current tax system fully ?

Yep - make everyone pay the same percentage of their wealth as everyone else. There'll be no austerity, no NHS crisis, no defense spending problems and foreign aid would be meaningful rather than a pittance...

 

[Wij]

Inheritance tax can go fuck. I've paid tax on it in the first place. Full marks for that one and Ben Goldacre is talking shite.

The right to buy thing on the other hand is fucking stupid.

 

[Gwadien]

Inheritance tax can go fuck. I've paid tax on it in the first place. Full marks for that one and Ben Goldacre is talking shite.

The right to buy thing on the other hand is fucking stupid.

If you're after a house, it's not stupid, if you're not, then it is.

It secures working class tory votes.

 

[Gwadien]

Not surprised with the Lib Dems tactics tbh:

We fucked up, but imagine the fuck up with UKIP or the SNP!

 

[Raven]

Well, it's kind of true though.

 

[Gwadien]

Well, it's kind of true though.

It's kind of true regardless of who gets into power with Labour or the Tories tbh.

As I've said countless times about the Tory-UKIP coalition.

But in reality, the minorities will roll over and play dead if there's 3 potential lesser parties to go into a coalition with.

 

[Zarjazz]

Not surprised with the Lib Dems tactics tbh:

We fucked up, but imagine the fuck up with UKIP or the SNP!

So basically his Election manifesto is "Vote for us but only because everyone else is even worse." Genius!

I'm so glad I've been avoiding all this politic shit on TV and in the news. Wake me up when its over.

 

[Gwadien]

So basically his Election manifesto is "Vote for us but only because everyone else is even worse." Genius!

I'm so glad I've been avoiding all this politic shit on TV and in the news. Wake me up when its over.

Yeah, pretty much.

Could you imagine how long the debates behind the scenes were going on 'Do we admit that we fucked up, but show ourselves as a better option, or do we actually pretend we can make the country wicked sick on our own?'

 

[Gumbo]

That's a crock of shit tho isn't it.

The minimum wage never lead to job losses and min wage rises haven't led to job losses.

However, people on minimum wage get top-up benefits - the taxpayer pays for them to the tune of about £11bn/year apparently.

Tesco's on the other hand makes something like 4bn/year profit - that goes to shareholders. They could pay all their workers £11 / hour minimum and still make 3bn/year profit.

So why are we burning up taxpayers money to subsidise big business?

Wrong. It won't, but if the minimum wage went to £8 on May the 8th, then I lay off a worker. The business isn't on a knife edge, but the employment of that lad is. i can just afford him, and having him makes life easier, but if I didn't have him I would have to spread his work out a bit more among those of us left, but I could also take a portion of what he's earning and feed it back into the business, or indeed, dammit, pay myself a smidge more. You forget that giving the lowest paid lad a rise in double figures percentage wise and leaving the rest of they guys in a small place on the same money won't work without massive problems.

I'm convinced that's probably the case for a lot of smaller businesses.

Perhaps there is some merit in your argument for those businesses making enormous profits, but how you can impose different min wages on different businesses I don't know.

 

[Bodhi]

The fact that they pay 30% of the income tax, despite being taxed at about 10%, speaks more to the obscene amount of wealth they horde for themselves than some non-existent generosity.


Yep - make everyone pay the same percentage of their wealth as everyone else. There'll be no austerity, no NHS crisis, no defense spending problems and foreign aid would be meaningful rather than a pittance...

I assuming I don't need to explain to someone such as yourelf who knows everything about everything, but income and wealth are not the same thing. The super rich you have such a bee in your bonnet about probably pay zero income tax whatsoever, that 30% figure is made up of the people who do actually pay, some at rates up to 50% (actually around 60% if they are on 100 - 120k, given the loss of personal allowance). You could try and tax these people more, but a) they would just find a way round it, or bugger off to live in Switzerland and b) it wouldn't encourage anyone to better themselves and get up to those sorts of wages, if they are just going to have to give them up to the government to piss up the wall.

You also seem to be insinuating that the NHS Crisis could be ended by simply throwing more money at it? This doesn't appear to have worked in the last 15 years, so what is your thinking behind it working now? You do realise Mid Staffs happened when it was having money thrown at it before?

Interesting hypothetical question for you all. Would you be in favour of increasing the top rate of tax, if it didn't bring in any additional revenue to HMRC?

 

[Gumbo]

Taxing wealth would be awesome, I have none at all, and it would mean I could keep all of my income. It is also a monumentally stupid idea.

 

[Raven]

It also wouldn't generate all that much more in reality.

I would sooner we got rid of income tax altogether and increased VAT, it would be the fairest way and the rich and poor would all pay the same percent. The more you spend, the more tax you pay. Completely unavoidable tax and simple to manage and collect.

 

[Scouse]

or indeed, dammit, pay myself a smidge more.

Q.E.D.

It isn't an issue until it hits a business owner's pocket. It never has been.

 

[Raven]

Hasn't @Gumbo explained before that he effectively already earns a small amount?

You seen to be under the impression that all business owners are raking it in regardless of business size. Which is obviously untrue.

 

[Scouse]

Hasn't @Gumbo explained before that he effectively already earns a small amount?

Relative to a minimum-wage earner or relative to his business-owning peers?

The minimum wage / "massive job loss" hysteria has been put to bed. It's been proven to be utter scaremongering bullshit.

Higher minimum wage benefits far more people than the tiny number of people that it might disadvantage as more money at the bottom of the tree is better for society all round (including taxpayers not having to subsidise people who should be getting paid properly by companies so that company owners can scrape off those "smidges" into their own pockets).

 

[old.user4556]

Farage is a fucking bell-end, Jesus Christ.

(Watching the BBC debate currently)

 

[Bodhi]

Relative to a minimum-wage earner or relative to his business-owning peers?

The minimum wage / "massive job loss" hysteria has been put to bed. It's been proven to be utter scaremongering bullshit.

Higher minimum wage benefits far more people than the tiny number of people that it might disadvantage as more money at the bottom of the tree is better for society all round (including taxpayers not having to subsidise people who should be getting paid properly by companies so that company owners can scrape off those "smidges" into their own pockets).

Wrong. As usual. Minimum Wage has been shown to cause job losses, not just here but around the world. Maybe if you stopped relying on the Guardian for tour worldly view and started reading around the subject you'd develop enough of a clue to be dangerous.

http://www.iea.org.uk/blog/unemployment-and-the-minimum-wage

That looks to me like, contrary to your assertions, the minimum wage has worked better for big business and government, because they can stomach the extra costs. Small businesses like Mr Gumbo s do not always have that luxury.

Take the current minimum wage worker out of tax, they can afford to live and businesses can afford to hire more people. I fail to see how that is not a win win.