Politics The General Election 2015

[Job]

The reason we need to leave the EU is so we can build some defence for when it self destructs...and it will, there is no way on gods Earth that the peoples of Europe will stay part of some artificial union when the extent of the bodging, corruption, vested interests finally breaks through the layers of bullshit keeping it going, the end will be quick and nasty and the best we could do is pull up the drawbridge and sit it out.

 

[Raven]

...

Except we can A. Have our say and B. actually try and change things from within instead of just debating immigration.

 

[Scouse]

Except we can A. Have our say and B. actually try and change things from within instead of just debating immigration.

Won't happen.

Stupid humans default to nationalism and simple arguments. Look at UKIP's meteoric rise. For everyone 10 UKIP voters who "thinks there's something wrong with Europe" I'll show you 9 who can't articulate what that is.

Europe, that is, never mind what's wrong with it...

 

[DaGaffer]

...

Except we can A. Have our say and B. actually try and change things from within instead of just debating immigration.

So what do you think would happen if there was a "no" vote? Somehow that would magically make Europe see the error of its ways and reform itself to keep the UK onside? Would it fuck. You can't "change things from within" by holding a gun to the EU's head. And like I said, anyone who thinks the referendum won't just devolve onto xenophobia is deluding themselves; the toxic British media will see to that.

If you want to change Europe, you do it from within rather than the standard UK approach of sniping from the sidelines.

 

[Raven]

So you don't believe that the people should decide their fate? That politicians should make all the decisions because "they know best" Interesting. Also interesting that @Scouse agrees with you.

What other things do you think we should just accept and be quiet about?

 

[Scouse]

So you don't believe that the people should decide their fate?

Absolutely I do.

It's just this "europe vote" isn't really anything to do with that. It's more to do with a fuckhead warping the democratic process by using legions of uneducated fuckheads' retarded nationalistic tendencies to gain power.

 

[Raven]

Well no...not really. UKIP don't want a referendum or to debate the real issues on membership, they just want out.

 

[DaGaffer]

So you don't believe that the people should decide their fate? That politicians should make all the decisions because "they know best" Interesting. Also interesting that @Scouse agrees with you.

What other things do you think we should just accept and be quiet about?

You're demonstrating the issue precisely; a complex problem to be decided by a simple question.You're presenting the issue as a binary choice that will somehow "fix" the UK's relationship with Europe. It won't. Its a waste of time that won't fix anything and probably cause more problems.

If you read my earlier posts, I never said anything about being "quiet" about Europe, but a referendum on membership is the wrong question that can't provide a useful outcome. If you want to fix Europe, elect a party that actually wants reform rather than whining. Of course no one will actually vote for that because the British would prefer an arm's length relationship with Europe entirely on its own terms, which misses the point.

 

[Scouse]

Well no...not really. UKIP don't want a referendum or to debate the real issues on membership, they just want out.

The phoney vote issue has come about because of teh UKIPs. In many ways it's a "retard placator".

However, it's politically idiotic. Partly for the reasons @DaGaffer says above.

It'll fix nothing, it'll damage a load of things, it's fucking retarded.

 

[Job]

The Greeks are bringing up repatriations again..they want 250 billion and the only reason the germans don't simply cast them overboard is because the EU is a very wobbly ship indeed and any one country can tip the lot over, the whole thing is a collection of basketcase economies and Germany...who we are all still wary of, it's not a recipe for disaster...we have allready baked the cake.

 

[mooSe_]

Job should have his own segment on the news.

 

[Raven]

The phoney vote issue has come about because of teh UKIPs. In many ways it's a "retard placator".

However, it's politically idiotic. Partly for the reasons @DaGaffer says above.

It'll fix nothing, it'll damage a load of things, it's fucking retarded.

It was on the cards before UKIP was even a thing. Outright refusing to consider one is what caused UKIP and the like to come into existence, now they have let it get so bad it could be a problem.

Just because you don't want something, does not mean that we are not entitled to something. Maybe not having a referendum would be the more logical choice but it wouldn't be the right choice.

Maybe you would like to see an unelected government too, after all it would be the best thing for us poor folk who shouldn't be allowed to run our own lives. RIght? After all us simple peasants shouldn't be able to choose government if all we think about are populist arguments. Right?? We wouldn't want to base our political belief on crap that happened in the 80s would we?! We should all be tagged and tracked for our own safety.

What is retarded is saying people shouldn't be allowed to have a choice if it is the wrong choice. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Job]

So they have compiled a huge list of extra damage the Nazi's did to Greece and the Germans think it's dumb, dragging up old wounds by the first country to crack is hardly a good sign for a 'united' Europe, people of our age haven't seen things turn real quick to shit...we have been molly coddled into believing the smug spin.

 

[Scouse]

Maybe you would like to see an unelected government too, after all it would be the best thing for us poor folk who shouldn't be allowed to run our own lives. RIght?

You're kind of proving the point tbh. Despite repeated assertions to the contrary you keep saying this shit.

Is it simply because you're incapable of holding more than one thing in your head at the same time?

"Mwaaaah, vote = want"
"Raven, it won't fix anything, it's a complex issue and it'll do a lot of very bad damage"
"But vote=want "
"How would it help?"
"Mwaaaah, you're anti democratic. Vote = want. "
"Sigh..."

 

[Raven]

You are missing the point entirely, yet again.

Your whole argument is basically, no its a bad idea because people would pick the wrong (in your opinion) choice so don't allow them that choice. My argument is that yes, maybe but then that's democracy in its ultimate form.

Lets just resort to personal insults though, the go-to argument of the socialist.

 

[Job]

Anyway the Greeks are off to Putin to do a deal on gas because we can't bail them out anymore....just stand back and think about that fir a few minutes...just fickin unbelievable.

 

[DaGaffer]

What is retarded is saying people shouldn't be allowed to have a choice if it is the wrong choice. You can't have it both ways.

Of course you can. Choice A "do you want us to burn your house down?", choice B "do you want you want your house to fall down a sinkhole?" Neither are choices that a sane person would make.

I live in a country that does referendums all the time; there's a constitution and changes to it require a mandate from the people to change anything. It generally works because the questions are manageable enough to be framed in a binary way (there's currently one coming up about gay marriage for instance). People can debate the subject and argue the pros and cons and broadly stay on topic. A referendum on the EU won't be like that, because the question being asked isn't the question that will be debated. It won't be about EU reform, it'll be about "Romanians using the NHS" or some such bollocks.

Oh and by the way, UKIP has been around since the early 90s. Its current popularity is a function of economic turmoil, just like all far right parties. When things are going well they're the 10% of the population that's always going to be racist and xenophobic, not just in the UK, but in every country, its just a normal distribution thing. But throw in a shit economy and the far right (and far left, which in the UK's case is the Greens) gain traction. The terrifying thing is that the Tories have let these idiots set the agenda, and now have to out UKIP the Kippers, which is why you get nonsense like this.

 

[DaGaffer]

Anyway the Greeks are off to Putin to do a deal on gas because we can't bail them out anymore....just stand back and think about that fir a few minutes...just fickin unbelievable.

Why is it unbelievable? Ze Germans get their gas from Russia as well, which is far more unbelievable (Greece has always had ties to Russia because of the Orthodox Church).

 

[Raven]

Well. Unlucky then. Because one way or another the Europe issue will get resolved. If a referendum isn't given then parties such as UKIP will gain more and more traction. The longer it goes on the more extreme views become. Like it or not, for the right reasons or not.

"BLAH BLAH OMG RACIALIST OMGOMGOMG"

Isn't really winning over any arguments.

We will get a referendum, politically there is no choice now.

 

[Mabs]

problem with a lot of politics imo is that people are too stupid or disinterested to read around the subjects, and get the info that is there, its just not in the daily mail or daily sport. end result , yes there -might- be a problem with "immigration", "tax", etc, but the solution is not "vote ukip", either go all the way, get the info, work out for yourself, and then make a decision, or fuck off. dont get scared by people with vested interest then knee-jerk and go "OGM MIGRANT MUSLIMS DID IT"

 

[Raven]

Then it is the role of society as a whole to educate. Not insult.

 

[Scouse]

Your whole argument is basically, no its a bad idea because people would pick the wrong (in your opinion) choice so don't allow them that choice.

That's not my argument at all.

If you want to be outright insulted, I can do that, but it seems having a pop as you struggle with comprehension is doing fine?

Well. Unlucky then. Because one way or another the Europe issue will get resolved.

No it won't. It'll end up like the scotland thing - endless referendums until the loudest minority get their own way.

The best thing to do is to nip it in the bud and tell the retards who want it to fuck off...

 

[Scouse]

Then it is the role of society as a whole to educate. Not insult.

It's the role of those being educated to attempt to understand the arguments rather than resort to simplistic jingoism.

The racism slur against UKIP isn't an insult - it's a fact. The fact that you find it personally insulting is simply because you don't like it...

 

[Mabs]

Then it is the role of society as a whole to educate. Not insult.

pretty sure thats been tried. have you heard this one before ?

"UKIP ARE RACISTS"
<fingers in ears>
"LALALALA LEFTY GAY COMMUNISTS RACE TRAITORS"

can take a horse to water ?.....

 

[old.user4556]

I don't want to wade in on this argument, because I don't want to be subjected to a torrent of "you're wrongs" from various punters, but here's the thing - go and stand in a service station on the M6, a McDonalds in Glasgow, a kebab shop in the East End of London and just stand there and watch people for an hour. That's the people that are deciding if we want to be in Europe or not. I find it fucking scary personally.

 

[Scouse]

a service station on the M6, a McDonalds in Glasgow, a kebab shop in the East End of London and just stand there and watch people for an hour. That's the people...

There's a lot of ambiguity about that comment. When I actively think of the demographics, what I envisage is a wide range of people. I.E. The UK population.

So, yep, democracy is a retarded thing, but it's better than the other retarded things, yadda yadda yadda.

It's a bit like what Carl Sagan said about science literacy in the voting population, and therefore the political elite, isn't it...




Edit: I'd have posted that as a video but for some reason I don't seem to be able to link to youtube vids, starting at a certain time? What am I doing wrong?

 

[Raven]

pretty sure thats been tried. have you heard this one before ?

"UKIP ARE RACISTS"
<fingers in ears>
"LALALALA LEFTY GAY COMMUNISTS RACE TRAITORS"

can take a horse to water ?.....

Yeah its a bit like the one that goes like this.

"ukip a bunch of cunts but some of what they say is actually based on fact so ought to be engaged sensibly."
"OMGOGLEBOX RACIALISTS OH NOES"

Nobody listens, nobody debates and the loudest wins. Its sad that loudest just before a general election are UKIP.

Nobody is challenging their views or the views of their supporters. Insulting them certainly isn't working, quite the opposite.

 

[Scouse]

"ukip a bunch of cunts but some of what they say is actually based on fact so ought to be engaged sensibly."

Is that a bit like when I posted an argument about why their arguments shouldn't be entertained (and not that calling them racist, which they are, isn't engaging with them sensibly) - you went:

"lalalalalal! <fingers in ears> WE SHOU1D L1st3n to UKIPZ! THEYRE N0T JUZT RACIZT YOU KNOWZ!"

 

[Raven]

No. What I said was, listen to them then offer a counter argument.

As it is, they are gaining more and more support and you are sat there with your finger in you ears.

And yes, that is exactly what is happening.

 

[Bodhi]

I don't want to wade in on this argument, because I don't want to be subjected to a torrent of "you're wrongs" from various punters, but here's the thing - go and stand in a service station on the M6, a McDonalds in Glasgow, a kebab shop in the East End of London and just stand there and watch people for an hour. That's the people that are deciding if we want to be in Europe or not. I find it fucking scary personally.

I find it a lot scarier that there are people out there who think the rest of us are too thick to make a decision, and are happy to take it out of our hands. I'm really not sure about this idea of if you don't give people a referendum it will just go away - in fact I'd suggest this shows you don't know as much about people as you suggest you do.

Personally I am still on the fence if being in the EU is a good thing or not. There are clearly benefits, but the current EU is an undemocratic, unaccountable bureaucratic mess, which does take the edge off it slightly. I also have concerns about what it means to our ability to trade with the rest of the world, as tying ourselves to Europe, especially with most of their economies being on their arses, feels like it's limiting our opportunities somewhat. But then, I don't have all the facts at this stage, but I am interested in finding out more. Actual facts as well, not the Guardian mob yelling RACIST every ten seconds as they will lose all their EU grant money, or the Kippers moaning about immigration every 30 seconds.

I find the comparisons with Scotland interesting too - there it was also interesting to get all the facts about Scotland's relationship with the UK (and see that overall, it was a good thing), so would be great to do a similar exercise with us and the EU. Yet when Scotland had a referendum to split from a larger union to the south they didn't feel they were getting a good deal from, it was a triumphant display of democracy in action. Yet when we ask for the same thing, we're told we're too stupid to make a decision? Am I the only one that sees the socking great big contradiction there?