Stealther balance?

[Valgyr]

that must have been loooooong time ago

since NF when RA´s got changed its not possible anymore

It is with old infi rr 5 available to all with 39 stealth spec, not used much i would wager tho

 

[Puppet]

A properly specced melee ranger is as hard as a minstrel with all toys up to take down. They have better DPS, we have dd's and stun. They have SoM/Battler/Malice, so do we but with warguard in addition.

You also have ablative and chain-armour. And in general a (much) better spec-AF buff. You discard ablative as 'not very useful against a hasted dualwielder' but in practice it dont matter much what you fight with it, it absorbs typically around the same damage for most classes. 70 damage per cycle (8 seconds or 4,5 if doubletapped)

With all toys down they drop just the same as minstrels too pretty much. Its simple - pop one, dump PA and CD in, run the hell away or vanish or mezz poison, or snare poison or whatever. Wait for anything from 20 seconds to 5 minutes (depending on what they had ) or so for most of their effects to go then attack again - hopefully youre now hitting a target without a purge or without most of its active mls/ras/artis.

Try vanishing against my ranger. I love free RP's. Vanished assassins I find in 90% of the cases back (unless its near a bridge where they can jump off from various spots).

Really not hard - i've been killed by RR4 assassins who understand that principle and use it to wear me down accordingly. Once all toys are gone the class is fairly easy to kill. Rangers are no different really in terms of damage absorption, although they kick out about 1.5-2* the dps with good styles...

You can wear out a minstrel, because he doesnt have 'super' detect. Once you stealth from a mincer, your pretty safe. Most times he blew a charge, so he cant stealthlore, leaving you undetected. Rangers have MoS, they can still detect you.

Mincers also have a *much* better defense-potential then a ranger. Sure, rangers can get PD, but mincers already take ALOT less base-damage. Simply because of chain (and the much higher AF + absorb) and the ablative. And ofcourse Warguard. My RR3 Mincer is like 'totally melee-immune' during Warguard+Battler+absorb. RR6 H2H savage took like 20% hp off my mincer during that crap up for 30 seconds. Can't get much better then that

 

[Meradesh]

Almost 100% of solo stealthers are melee specced, would be nice an higher number of 50 bow "allaround" archers, 50 bow is fine to solo imo, specially being scout or hunter.

 

[lpep]

what a load of waffle...... how can a sb doing 120-180 main hand be balanced agasint inf/ns doing 250 main hand be balanced....utter bulll shiit......

 

[Congax]

what a load of waffle...... how can a sb doing 120-180 main hand be balanced agasint inf/ns doing 250 main hand be balanced....utter bulll shiit......

I'm hitting for an average 180-190 MH on my shade - sure, if my LG weapon procs I might reach 250-280, but rest assured, it doesn't happen to often. And a SB his offhand always swings, contrary to my shade with very low CD (19) so I barely get OH hits. I think it makes up quite nicely.

 

[illu]

/snip
And a SB his offhand always swings, contrary to my shade with very low CD (19) so I barely get OH hits. I think it makes up quite nicely.

Now if the offhand always landed - that would be something else altogether :>

I think the only thing that lets SB's compete against their assassin enemies is PH. And maybe the CS line. Shame I'm LA specced :/

Oli - Illu

 

[Puppet]

what a load of waffle...... how can a sb doing 120-180 main hand be balanced agasint inf/ns doing 250 main hand be balanced....utter bulll shiit......

Ofcourse that aint balanced. Luckily its nothing like that. More like this

 

[Thornea]

If you dual wield as a Mid you get 62.5% Base Dam per weapon plus 0.34% per point of LA.
CD/DW does 100% Base Dam but has a chance to swing both hands each round.

The CD/DW dynamic extra dam can drastically outdamage the static LA dam increase, as there is a chance that CD/DW can swing both enough times that the LA user can not catch up on the damage done.

Basically with 39 LA +19(SC and RR) on Thornea im...
39 LA spec * 0.34 = 19.72 + 62.5 = 82.22 (thats if the SC and RR is actually a factor.. if not its roughly 75)

Doing roughly 20% less dmg BOTH hands compared to an Inf/NS's dmg mh and oh.

Im sure if you do 1k swings CD/DW and LA all equal each other out and are perfectly balanced but imo it only takes an inf or NS to land a few offhand hits and its impossible to catch up dmg wise.

It is bizare tbh how it works out.. average dmg on Thornea rr9L3 MH seams to be 100 (V PD rangers), 130-160 V high rr stealths and if lucky 180-250 mh v Rog casters where as my rr1 Inf was hitting for just under 200 v high rr stealths and 280-350 mh v Rog casters.

Personally I think Remedy should be removed from all assasins, PH removed from SBs, 2h SB PA dmg reduced (it is the only thing going for SBs tbh), SB dmg increased or DW/CD mechanics implemented.

 

[Shike]

yea i guess bludgeon+better armortable+PHN aint enuff for SBs, need back old LAmechanics for them to compete..

 

[Gamah]

kinda wanna play again god damn it.

 

[Azathrim]

yea i guess bludgeon+better armortable+PHN aint enuff for SBs, need back old LAmechanics for them to compete..

Hahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[Azathrim]

Hahahahahah

Ok, I'll stop laughing.

No wait!

Hahahahahahah!

 

[Shike]

Hahahahahah

Ok, I'll stop laughing.

No wait!

Hahahahahahah!

ehum..

it is better than it used to be is it not? 5% vulnerability instead of 10% vs slash = better afaik

perhaps I should have said.. improved

 

[Puppet]

If you dual wield as a Mid you get 62.5% Base Dam per weapon plus 0.34% per point of LA.
CD/DW does 100% Base Dam but has a chance to swing both hands each round.

The CD/DW dynamic extra dam can drastically outdamage the static LA dam increase, as there is a chance that CD/DW can swing both enough times that the LA user can not catch up on the damage done.

The last statement is entirely wrong. I'll show you, but lets evaluate this quote abit:

Basically with 39 LA +19(SC and RR) on Thornea im...
39 LA spec * 0.34 = 19.72 + 62.5 = 82.22 (thats if the SC and RR is actually a factor.. if not its roughly 75)

Doing roughly 20% less dmg BOTH hands compared to an Inf/NS's dmg mh and oh.

So you do 82.22% damage on both your mainhand and offhand, which equals 2x 82.22% = 164% damage (compared to 1x 1H weapon without any penalty)

Now lets assume the infiltrator has 39 + 19 DW. His chance to swing his offhand is 64%. That is 25% + ( (39+19) * 0.68%) = 64%

So his mainhand hits 100% of the time (for 100% damage) and his offhand hits 64% of the time (for 100% damage). So he's on 164% damage.. gosh thats the same!

Saying you cannot catch up when the infil swings his offhand is quite unlikely:

Example:
Round1: SB does 164% dmg
Round1: INF does 200% dmg (he swings both his hands)
Round2: SB does 164% dmg
Round2: INF does 100% dmg (he swings only MH)

INF did 300% dmg now, SB did 328% dmg now. Flat-out 'misses' might seem to work against the SB-class on first sight, but a 'miss' on the INF his side, means missing more damage (100% against 82%) which adds up perfectly to be *exactly* the same, over time. With Wyrd-spec, there's no reason to assume the INF misses less then the SB anymore (relatively). Once again, a myth introduced by the 'LA-camp' to find something to whine about.

Im sure if you do 1k swings CD/DW and LA all equal each other out and are perfectly balanced but imo it only takes an inf or NS to land a few offhand hits and its impossible to catch up dmg wise.

Thats just the silly part. You *assume* the SB is the underdog in shear DPS in short time-intervals, when there's absolutely no reason to assume that's a fact. There's 1 factor which is speaks against the LA-mechanics ---> you get more chances to hit a defensive proc. Obviously, you can also proc more offensively. With the introduction of passive Viper and ML3 Enduring Poison, the lifebane/dot on a weapon can be roughly seen as a short-duration damage-add, which surely speaks in the SB's favour.

It is bizare tbh how it works out.. average dmg on Thornea rr9L3 MH seams to be 100 (V PD rangers), 130-160 V high rr stealths and if lucky 180-250 mh v Rog casters where as my rr1 Inf was hitting for just under 200 v high rr stealths and 280-350 mh v Rog casters.

Numbers pulled out of thin air. If anything, the INF also notices a drastic reduction to his damage if he's using mundane weapons against a (high-)PD target.

And ofcourse the INF is hitting for more mainhand, but if you add up total offhand-damage you will see that the SB is outdamaging the INF by the exact same margin as the INF is outdamaging the SB in mainhand (if equal spec obviously, equal stats and gear, relics and such).

 

[Lethul]

The last statement is entirely wrong. I'll show you, but lets evaluate this quote abit:



So you do 82.22% damage on both your mainhand and offhand, which equals 2x 82.22% = 164% damage (compared to 1x 1H weapon without any penalty)

Now lets assume the infiltrator has 39 + 19 DW. His chance to swing his offhand is 64%. That is 25% + ( (39+19) * 0.68%) = 64%

So his mainhand hits 100% of the time (for 100% damage) and his offhand hits 64% of the time (for 100% damage). So he's on 164% damage.. gosh thats the same!

Saying you cannot catch up when the infil swings his offhand is quite unlikely:

Example:
Round1: SB does 164% dmg
Round1: INF does 200% dmg (he swings both his hands)
Round2: SB does 164% dmg
Round2: INF does 100% dmg (he swings only MH)

INF did 300% dmg now, SB did 328% dmg now. Flat-out 'misses' might seem to work against the SB-class on first sight, but a 'miss' on the INF his side, means missing more damage (100% against 82%) which adds up perfectly to be *exactly* the same, over time. With Wyrd-spec, there's no reason to assume the INF misses less then the SB anymore (relatively). Once again, a myth introduced by the 'LA-camp' to find something to whine about.



Thats just the silly part. You *assume* the SB is the underdog in shear DPS in short time-intervals, when there's absolutely no reason to assume that's a fact. There's 1 factor which is speaks against the LA-mechanics ---> you get more chances to hit a defensive proc. Obviously, you can also proc more offensively. With the introduction of passive Viper and ML3 Enduring Poison, the lifebane/dot on a weapon can be roughly seen as a short-duration damage-add, which surely speaks in the SB's favour.



Numbers pulled out of thin air. If anything, the INF also notices a drastic reduction to his damage if he's using mundane weapons against a (high-)PD target.

And ofcourse the INF is hitting for more mainhand, but if you add up total offhand-damage you will see that the SB is outdamaging the INF by the exact same margin as the INF is outdamaging the SB in mainhand (if equal spec obviously, equal stats and gear, relics and such).

fuck offhanders, real men uses 1 big sword !
you could say the size of your sword is determined by the size of your irl penis!

 

[Azathrim]

perhaps I should have said.. improved

Aha, fair enough. I still hold my oppinion, that the slash based stealther templates the Hib leather/studded is far superior to any other armour.

Id happily swap bludgeon away for a Hibernia cow.

Saying you cannot catch up when the infil swings his offhand is quite unlikely:

The theory on LA and CD/DW mechanics are ancient and as far as I know haven't been tested in a realistic setup yet. That is, including ToA bonuses.
They are however the only thing we have to go for and as suchs must assume they are correct.

That said, having played both a CD and LA user, it certainly feels like CD far outdamages LA.

It would be cool to get a large round of tests done in a proper enviroment.

With Wyrd-spec, there's no reason to assume the INF misses less then the SB anymore (relatively). Once again, a myth introduced by the 'LA-camp' to find something to whine about.

In so far that most SB's have 50/51 modified LA, it is correct that the chance to miss or not penetrate defenses is the same for a wyrd specced CD/DW user.

However, the SB is forced to wyrd spec their off-hand, where as the CD/DW user is not. This since the WS of the off-hand is based on LA spec. This in contradiction to the CD/DW user where the off-hand WS is based on the main-hand spec.

It's a minor point though, as I initially stated the common SB spec includes at least 50/51 modified LA.

 

[Puppet]

The theory on LA and CD/DW mechanics are ancient and as far as I know haven't been tested in a realistic setup yet. That is, including ToA bonuses.
They are however the only thing we have to go for and as suchs must assume they are correct.

The basics are correct, as the mechanics haven't changed during the years. The TOA-haste and TOA-melee damage (not style) is equal for LA and DW/CD users. They simply are multiplications with a certain factor (10% in most cases if you got capped TOA-bonusses).

you are correct about the TOA-style damage, there's a very slight disadvantage regarding style-bonusses on LA with TOA-stylebonuses. It seems the TOA-stylebonuses are applied afterwards, which means a typical berserkers lacks about 1% style-damage compared to a Merc/BM. With the typical lower LA-spec on SB's that would be about 1.2-1.5% less bonus (depending if you're 34 or 39 LA, less benefit on less LA spec). Annoying, and unfair, but hardly gamebreaking (would be nice if Mythic fixed this tho, I agree).

That said, having played both a CD and LA user, it certainly feels like CD far outdamages LA.

It definitly feels like that, but thats mostly because its human behaviour to look at 'the big numbers'. With LA-mechanics the 'numbers' are lower, the caps are lower (for both mainhand and offhand) but thats compensated by the 100% chance to swing your offhand.

In so far that most SB's have 50/51 modified LA, it is correct that the chance to miss or not penetrate defenses is the same for a wyrd specced CD/DW user.

However, the SB is forced to wyrd spec their off-hand, where as the CD/DW user is not. This since the WS of the off-hand is based on LA spec. This in contradiction to the CD/DW user where the off-hand WS is based on the main-hand spec.

It's a minor point though, as I initially stated the common SB spec includes at least 50/51 modified LA.

It would be nice to see the 'offhand-WS' to be taken from the mainhand-WS, but I think they didnt do that because for LA its not a fixed rule you use the same 'weapontype' in your offhand (you always got a Left AXE in your offhand, eventho you can be Sword/Hammer spec in mainhand). Still easy to fix obviously, dunno why Mythic aint doing that.

(edit: Its unfortunate I lost my dualwield swingtest on my ranger. With 70 modified CD spec I was swinging my offhand about 72% of the time on like 600 swings tested. So much for the often heard 'LOL this infil swings his offhand every time and for full damage')

 

[Azathrim]

The basics are correct, as the mechanics haven't changed during the years.

Actually that is not known either.

Id very much like to perform a test with a SB and NS/Inf, each specced equally with equal stats and weaponry. Both attacking the same target in order to do a basic DPS test. 1000+ rounds, measure the time taken and the damage done and get the DPS.

The thing is though, it's hard to get the resources to perform suchs a test. Not to mention the time.

 

[dub]

was more balanced before 1.83 than now really , sure the brittle nerf was nice , but rest was crappy.

 

[censi]

see so few decent stealthers around these days. and that isnt a u sux I rox comment.

just always used to like being weary of like good assasins being online, people that could drop you quick or outhussle you.

partly due to the fact its hard to bump into the good players that are out there, and the fact a lot of the good players have gone.

partly also to the newb quarter I think just giving up on their stealther side projects and running their solo caster main project.

also really havent had a good fight with a mincer for donkeys years. Cant really name one decent one on this server which is a real shame because its an awsome class.

 

[Thornea]

So his mainhand hits 100% of the time (for 100% damage) and his offhand hits 64% of the time (for 100% damage). So he's on 164% damage.. gosh thats the same!

Saying you cannot catch up when the infil swings his offhand is quite unlikely:

Example:
Round1: SB does 164% dmg
Round1: INF does 200% dmg (he swings both his hands)
Round2: SB does 164% dmg
Round2: INF does 100% dmg (he swings only MH)

INF did 300% dmg now, SB did 328% dmg now. Flat-out 'misses' might seem to work against the SB-class on first sight, but a 'miss' on the INF his side, means missing more damage (100% against 82%) which adds up perfectly to be *exactly* the same, over time. With Wyrd-spec, there's no reason to assume the INF misses less then the SB anymore (relatively). Once again, a myth introduced by the 'LA-camp' to find something to whine about.

This is the point isnt it? Your maths are right in theory that the Inf is failing to swing his offhand every other round but, in reality in my experience with my rr5 inf specced 39+11+4 DW hes failing to swing 1 time in every 4 swings roughly, no matter what the maths say..
so
Round1: SB does 164% dmg
Round1: INF does 200% dmg (he swings both his hands)
Round2: SB does 164% dmg
Round2: INF does 100% dmg (he swings only MH)
Round1: SB does 164% dmg
Round1: INF does 200% dmg (he swings both his hands)
Round1: SB does 164% dmg
Round1: INF does 200% dmg (he swings both his hands)

Total dmg SB per round (656%/4 rounds) = 164%
Total dmg Inf per round (764%/4 rounds) = 191%

this is what im refering too in regards to not being able to make back the dmg if inf/Ns swings more than the allotted supposed swing rate.

Obviously the RNG is a big factor, and its only my opinion based on rr9L3's worth of SB game time and rr5L2's worth of Inf game time.
Im sure it will be disproved and I guess im gonna have to get a log parser out and play my inf for a few evenings then my SB too and compare dmg/swing rates etc and put my money where my mouth is.

Numbers pulled out of thin air. If anything, the INF also notices a drastic reduction to his damage if he's using mundane weapons against a (high-)PD target.

As I said above ive 9L3 worth of SB game time and 5L2 worth of Inf game time so how can u say they are numbers pulled out of thin air??. Although I have no Hard evidence to back up the numbers (screen shots etc) they are valid figures from my game experience time and yes Infs who have mundane weapons also suffer with very lowdmg v High PD classes that goes without saying

 

[Puppet]

.... statistic when inf swings 90% of the time his offhand.... ...

this is what im refering too in regards to not being able to make back the dmg if inf/Ns swings more than the allotted supposed swing rate.

Obviously the RNG is a big factor, and its only my opinion based on rr9L3's worth of SB game time and rr5L2's worth of Inf game time.

Well obviously the RNG is a big factor, yes. For every time this infiltrator swings 9/10x his offhand, he also has swinged 3/10x his offhand. Its just that you dont remember those, instead you kill him and go 'lol what a gimpo'.

And if we throw opinions based on RR, I base it on a RR10L2 Ranger and a RR8L2 NS

Im sure it will be disproved and I guess im gonna have to get a log parser out and play my inf for a few evenings then my SB too and compare dmg/swing rates etc and put my money where my mouth is.

As said, humans have a habit 'seeing' high numbers, if someone hits you for 209MH and you hit back for 143MH (and 68OH) it looks kinda fast that the other dude is outdamaging you. While in reality, that aint true. Thats the point I tried to make earlier.

As I said above ive 9L3 worth of SB game time and 5L2 worth of Inf game time so how can u say they are numbers pulled out of thin air??. Although I have no Hard evidence to back up the numbers (screen shots etc) they are valid figures from my game experience time and yes Infs who have mundane weapons also suffer with very lowdmg v High PD classes that goes without saying

They are pulled out of thin air, because you categorize 'high rr stealthers' and such all under 1 category. Most Pryd Alb- and Hib-stealthers know there is a *massive* difference in hitting Vanguar and Cylian, even tho both where roughly same RR. Or compare, for your Excal'ers hitting Papasan and hitting Lxn. Big big difference.

And ofcourse there's still the disparity between the resists you face. A slash infil can hit REALLY hard on a SB, where its not uncommon for the same slash infil to QQ about his damage when he fights a NS. Add spec-AF, haste, relics etc etc.