Politics So...Europe then?

[Raven]

Lets assume the talking heads from Europe are correct and everything moves to Europe post Brexit, then it would make no difference to Europe on the whole, they would keep their industry (financial, industrial etc) and would ultimately experience very little change. Theoretically it would be in their best interests for us to leave and them to take our financials and so on.

Now lets look at the real world. We leave, they lose one of the main contributors, the ratio between contributor and parasite is lessoned and they suffer.

 

[Deebs]

I'm Cameron because I want to talk about actual issues which is something Brexiters seem to be shying away from. "We will be ok" isn't exactly a compelling argument.

No but the fact of the matter is that in the 70's we signed up for a free trade agreement. Now it has become a federal government which decides and manages our laws. We did not sign up for that. Simple. I do not give a shit about anything else. My vote is all about who governs the UK.

 

[Shagrat]

sweet mary, are you Cameron? Fuck me, grow a pair of bollox. Either way we will be ok.

that seems a "la la la" fingers in the ears kind of answer?

as Callous says, what about the subsidies etc. that farming get. All ive seen from the leave crowd so far is they'll use made up amount of 350m a week we supposedly give to Europe and spend that on the more hospitals, more nurses, jobs, extra days of sunshine and unicorns for the u16's.

 

[Deebs]

that seems a "la la la" fingers in the ears kind of answer?

as Callous says, what about the subsidies etc. that farming get. All ive seen from the leave crowd so far is they'll use made up amount of 350m a week we supposedly give to Europe and spend that on the more hospitals, more nurses, jobs, extra days of sunshine and unicorns for the u16's.

I do not give a fuck about money. It is about who governs our country and who I vote for as a government.

 

[Raven]

as Callous says, what about the subsidies etc. that farming get.

Well seeing as we currently put in (far more) than we get out, I think we can just about cover subsidies. Which for the most part are bollocks anyway. I have never met a poor farmer, in fact most drive round in brand new Range Rovers round here.

 

[Embattle]

The more project fear tries the more annoyed some people seem to be getting.

Got my postal vote sitting next to my keyboard right now.

 

[Scouse]

I think it boils down to whether we want to continue doffing the cap to the multinationals (like JP Morgan) or whether we take a stand and tell them to fuck off

It's called the Anglo-Dutch banking system for a reason.

Just sayin'...

 

[Raven]

Oh right, that's OK then. Lets keep it trundling along!

Who cares if it doesn't work except to make the rich that much richer.

 

[DaGaffer]

Oh right, that's OK then. Lets keep it trundling along!

Who cares if it doesn't work except to make the rich that much richer.

Why do you keep assuming that British politicians will put the populus first? You keep making that assertion that "getting our sovereignty back" will be a better and more accountable system, and yet there's absolutely nothing to suggest that will happen and a shitload of evidence to the contrary. This is the bit about Brexit I just don't understand; its not a election that's going to bring a better government and there's no party out there that is "better", so what's the point?

 

[SilverHood]

I feel like Pat Condell nails it...

 

[Embattle]

Ironic how in an age of devolving powers to local communities the government/people support a project that sees them about as far removed as possible.

 

[DaGaffer]

Ironic how in an age of devolving powers to local communities the government/people support a project that sees them about as far removed as possible.

Amazingly, the two things aren't contradictory.

 

[Wij]

Good article on the case for joining the EEA below:

Evolution Not Revolution

Actually that was an interesting read. Not the usual immigans tek er jerbz!

 

[Scouse]

Oh right, that's OK then. Lets keep it trundling along

How does leaving the EU stop a banking system the UK invented hundreds of years ago to run things in the interests of elites.

The EU keeps attempting to reign in the City at least...

 

[Scouse]

I like Pat Condell's democratic arguments. Manybof the points are fair.

However, UK democracy is a sham anyway. We'd simply be 'freeing' ourselves to be ruled by the whims of a more extreme elite who don't give a fuck about the little people, who don't adhere to manifesto commitments, who've stripped labour laws and environmental protections faster than the other set of shysters.

I'd find his argument compelling if we lived in a democracy. But we don't.

 

[Scouse]

Hugely interesting article by Hilary Benn - a chap a lot of people on here seem to admire after his roasting of Jeremy Corbyn. He's asking the brexit people to say exactly which of the regulations they'd burn first upon leaving the EU:

The employment minister, Priti Patel, a prominent Tory Brexiter, has called [worker's rights] a burden and would like to halve them. Boris Johnson said it was “very disappointing” that Britain had not made “changes to employment law”, complaining that we “need to weigh in on all that stuff, all that social chapter stuff”.

Cameron’s former adviser Steve Hilton has complained that “membership of the EU brings with it constraints on everything from employment law to family policy”. And when Chris Grayling was asked what European “red tape” he disliked, he referred to health and safety laws.

Hilary's asking them to define exactly which of these employment rights and health and safety laws they intend to scrap before the election - because he thinks that if the electorate finds out that they, for example, want to scrap shared maternity leave or the guarantee of four-week's paid holiday for permanent employees then the electorate would be outraged.


But the funniest thing I've read today is this - which makes a mockery of brexiter's arguments: Vote Leave wins, but we remain in the single market, keep our borders open, keep free movement and keep paying all of the money to Brussels - because British Parliamentary Sovreignity lets our democratically elected leaders do it.

So, Brexiter's get the worst of everything - we get our employment rights scrapped but can't do anything about migration, free movement or "club fees".

Well done, Vote Leave. Well done.

 

[Bodhi]

Hugely interesting article by Hilary Benn - a chap a lot of people on here seem to admire after his roasting of Jeremy Corbyn. He's asking the brexit people to say exactly which of the regulations they'd burn first upon leaving the EU:

Hilary's asking them to define exactly which of these employment rights and health and safety laws they intend to scrap before the election - because he thinks that if the electorate finds out that they, for example, want to scrap shared maternity leave or the guarantee of four-week's paid holiday for permanent employees then the electorate would be outraged.


But the funniest thing I've read today is this - which makes a mockery of brexiter's arguments: Vote Leave wins, but we remain in the single market, keep our borders open, keep free movement and keep paying all of the money to Brussels - because British Parliamentary Sovreignity lets our democratically elected leaders do it.

So, Brexiter's get the worst of everything - we get our employment rights scrapped but can't do anything about migration, free movement or "club fees".

Well done, Vote Leave. Well done.

Dur, try reading the article I posted earlier, covers all of the "issues" you've found with the "soft" exit model.

On Free movement

4. No change to free movement

This is very nearly true but for the fact that the EEA countries have a permanent “emergency brake” on the four freedoms including free movement that they have the full sovereign power to pull. Such a brake on free movement is something David Cameron attempted to win during his renegotiation but ended up getting in a bit of a muddle over it

On the "Club Fees"

3. “Still pay”

EEA/EFTA members pay a small amount for Single Market access but when discussing this subject, the Remain lobby tends to focus on Norway specifically and then conveniently include the “Norway Grants” (that aren’t paid to the EU) into the calculation. This creates an inflated figure which is then misrepresented as the fee Norway pays to the EU for market access. When that distortion is removed, Norway pays significantly less than the UK’s net membership contribution and can be seen as a very reasonable contribution for market access and joint action with neighbours.

And the article you posted demonstrates some of the advantages of the EEA model:

The advantages of EEA membership for non-EU countries - known by some as the "Norway model" - include access to the single market without having to agree agriculture or fishing quotas, to cooperate on justice or foreign affairs, or be a member of the eurozone or the Schengen border-free arrangement.

It also keeps us away from the "Ever Closer Union" pisshead Juncker and the other 4 (!!!) EU Presidents are so keen on. So far from making a mockery, to me, that seems pretty much the strongest argument so far.

 

[Scouse]

Stuff

Even if I blindly accepted the arguments put forward by the died-in-the-wool neoliberal think-tank that is the Adam Smith Institute - and I absolutely do not as recent history has comprehenively demonstrated that neoliberalism has been an incredibly devastating mistake - you've not made a single rebuff to any of the arugments on worker's rights.

But then, that's neoliberals for you. Even if we get to trade openly with the EU the conditions under which people will be expected to work in the UK will migrate towards those of workers in the US - and as far as I'm concerned that's not a working model that anyone should be leaning towards.


So, at the very best, your choice is win-lose. Win for the big corps, lose for the workers.

 

[Job]

Lets assume the talking heads from Europe are correct and everything moves to Europe post Brexit, then it would make no difference to Europe on the whole, they would keep their industry (financial, industrial etc) and would ultimately experience very little change. Theoretically it would be in their best interests for us to leave and them to take our financials and so on.

Now lets look at the real world. We leave, they lose one of the main contributors, the ratio between contributor and parasite is lessoned and they suffer.

Its not about reality but perception, all over Europe there is significant movements against the EU, a major player like the UK leaving could vastly boost their case.
The EU is theirs to lose.
I expect migration to continue...politicians are not interested in curbing it because it feeds the economy and big lenders want to see worker bees entering the workforce with fuck all pensions and job security, we should be thankfull so many want to come, its just the social/cultural effects of bowing down to their ways has led us to the brink of leaving, if the dickheads in power had set strict boundaries on religious and cultural display we wouldnt be in this situation.

 

[Bodhi]

Even if I blindly accepted the arguments put forward by the died-in-the-wool neoliberal think-tank that is the Adam Smith Institute - and I absolutely do not as recent history has comprehenively demonstrated that neoliberalism has been an incredibly devastating mistake - you've not made a single rebuff to any of the arugments on worker's rights.

But then, that's neoliberals for you. Even if we get to trade openly with the EU the conditions under which people will be expected to work in the UK will migrate towards those of workers in the US - and as far as I'm concerned that's not a working model that anyone should be leaning towards.


So, at the very best, your choice is win-lose. Win for the big corps, lose for the workers.

Strange, I was under the impression that the big bad evil neoliberalism that people of a certain socialist disposition keep moaning about, is pretty much the way that the EU runs things. But anyhoo, I didn't really put a "rebuttal" forwards on worker's rights and to be honest, Mr Benn doesn't really make much of a point either - it mostly seems to revolve around "just think what the nasty Tories might do". However I must admit I'm not too concerned - as the rights we already have in the UK far outstrip what is mandated by the EU.

Maternity Pay - EU Mandates 14 weeks, we give 52, with up to 39 paid.
Holidays - EU Mandates 20, we give 28.
Minimum Wage - No stipulation from the EU, in UK legislation
Right to Strike - No stipulation from the EU, in UK legislation

In fact I'd go so far as to say the EU does very little for worker's rights in the UK - they have all been safeguarded by British legislation, not European.

Five myths about the EU

(Can't believe I've just quoted a Morning Star article - I feel dirty).

 

[Scouse]

Hold on, so it's not EU legislation that's a problem then? I mean, it's what Boris the Clown and all of the other Brexiteer's are clearly on about - as evidenced above and by the leave campaign's "bonfire of regulations" statement.

Most of our MP's (that are massively for remain) and the trade unions say worker's rights are at risk. The Leave campain want to burn the regulations and their prominent campaigners have stated clearly and openly on the record that they want to remove many of the worker's rights.

Which argument is it to be?

 

[Scouse]

Holidays are getting expensive as Brexit worries have effectively taken 9% off the value of our money...

 

[ECA]

This thread feels like Scouse is David Cameron and FH members are the only people voting in this referendum.

 

[Scouse]

This thread feels like Scouse is David Cameron and FH members are the only people voting in this referendum.

Just asking questions m8. Brexiters don't seem to be actually saying anything really. They're not making offerings, they're not saying what they're going to do or what things are going to look like and are just accusing the other side of "scaremongering" every time they come up with something concrete.

@SilverHood's Pat Condell video has pretty much been the only cogent single-issue argument for Brexit I've seen put forward (although there are points in it I disagree with) - I'm just trying to coax something concrete out of the Leave camp.

What do they actually stand for, rather than against, and what exactly would they do if they got their way?

 

[Bodhi]

Just asking questions m8. Brexiters don't seem to be actually saying anything really. They're not making offerings, they're not saying what they're going to do or what things are going to look like and are just accusing the other side of "scaremongering" every time they come up with something concrete.

@SilverHood's Pat Condell video has pretty much been the only cogent single-issue argument for Brexit I've seen put forward (although there are points in it I disagree with) - I'm just trying to coax something concrete out of the Leave camp.

What do they actually stand for, rather than against, and what exactly would they do if they got their way?

That's because you are looking on this as an election, i.e if I win I will do such and such. Referendums are slightly different, concrete future plans are less important (hence how Remain have got off Scot Free without mentioning what the future with the EU will look like), as chances are, if we vote to Leave then Dave will struggle to stay in place, so we'll have a new government after that anyway.

Actually what's more likely, is that we'll vote to Leave, then the EU will suggest we hold the vote again until we get the right answer. They have form for this....

 

[Scouse]

Rubbish. We know exactly what a future Europe looks like - like it looks right now - perhaps followed after much future negotiation by some sort of federal superstate.

Leave definitely should be giving a lot more substance. Saying "lets get out and then we'll wing it" is totally unacceptable. It's like Blair saying "lets bomb Iraq, but not have a plan for afterwards..."

They do have a plan. They have regulations in their sights that they're desparate to scrap. They should come out and show us what they are, in detail.

Put up, or GTFO tbh.

 

[Bodhi]

Rubbish. We know exactly what a future Europe looks like - like it looks right now - perhaps followed after much future negotiation by some sort of federal superstate.

Leave definitely should be giving a lot more substance. Saying "lets get out and then we'll wing it" is totally unacceptable. It's like Blair saying "lets bomb Iraq, but not have a plan for afterwards..."

They do have a plan. They have regulations in their sights that they're desparate to scrap. They should come out and show us what they are, in detail.

Put up, or GTFO tbh.

Lol, bless. You think our relationship with the EU will remain exactly the same as it is now if we vote to Stay?

 

[Scouse]

Lol, bless. You think our relationship with the EU will remain exactly the same as it is now if we vote to Stay?

No. I think slowly but surely we'll have increased integration, though a long negotiated process involving all member states. As I clearly stated.

What, exactly, do you think will happen @Bodhi? Spell it out in clear terms for laughably uneducated little me.


And whilst you're at it, spell out a bit more why Leave shouldn't have to justify their position, or give any specifics at all, again.

 

[Deepfried]

Voting out as I believe Europe needs the UK more than we need Europe and also it puts allthose meps out of work.Both sides are liars as are all polticians...most are groomed in Oxford and Cambridge and have no clue what it is like to be working class and living in the UK.
One party gets in blames the other for all the problems and vice versa
No politican ever gives a straight answer to any question.
Anyhow enough of my ranting!

 

[Scouse]

So, like a lot of people have posited, Brexit is simply an emotional rage against 'elites'.