Savages

[Fagane]

The fast hit-rate, compared to the dammage. Its a compleet interupt power, and ignores pbt. So even less chance for a caster. If they assist, then its hell for any class, you can not heal up against it.

There are classes out there that spec for the best pbt, and now PBT, Critic Shot and Savage can ignore it, a compleet spec line is destroyed.

Fagane

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by old.Emma
hello did i miss or something or are savages the only class that can below the melee speed cap ?

4*400 in 5 seconds means a swing speed of 1.25 seconds.

As said about 4 times before, you have 3 delays to swing 4 times. 5/3 = 1.67sec delay.

Originally posted by old.Emma
250 Quickness with 32% Haste (self buff) brings that swing speed down to 2.11 seconds..

And 39% haste drops it to 1.89s with a 5spd weapon.

Originally posted by old.Emma
But the style damage on a Leather Wearing class with slash neutral armour unbuffed with 29% slash resist is 331 Damage bare in mind that is the cap vs that type of armour/resists you`ll be very lucky to hit that consistantly

Throw in Celerity as well and your swing speed will drop to 1.5 seconds but then your styled damage will also drop to around 250 ish.

Oh sorry... I didn't see where you posted logs of this damage, but well, I can theorise some numbers all you want...


Compare a LW hero vs a 2h axe savage. Give them the same stats, the same weaponspec (say 50+15LW vs 50+15Sword - thus the second dps and haste buffs). Hitting with Annihilation and Ragnarok respectively.

For the sake of argument, maximise damage-over-time on both, so give them both 250qui and give the Hero a Druid haste buff. And for the sake of argument, they each do 70% of their potential base damage which swinging at this leather-wearing Infiltrator.

Well, the hero will end up with:

(1 + (0.88*65*0.496/52))*(0.7*52)/0.496 = 113.4 dps or 309.4dmg per hit with a 5.5spd weapon at 2.73delay

And the savage:

(1 + (0.90*65*0.422/52))*(0.7*52)*(1 + 0.21*1.25)/0.422 = 160.6 dps or 372.8dmg per hit with a 5.5spd weapon at 2.32delay

(If you want to give him celerity aswell, that's 204.9+ dps).


And if you specced the savage 44+15weapon, 49savagery (say 44hammer, using conquer->sledgehammer) that would give:

(1 + (0.84*59*0.378/52))*(0.67*52)*(1 + 0.25*1.25)/0.378 = 164.5 dps or 342.0dmg per hit with a 5.5spd weapon at 2.08delay


But then remember that Heroes rely on front-loading, they don't need the Qui for evade, they don't take a Druid haste. But Savages need the Qui for Evade, have a haste buff, it's all about dps for them.

If you were to knock the Hero down to 40Qui without haste, he only comes out at:

(1 + (0.88*65*1.04/52))*(0.7*52)/1.04 = 75.04 dps or 429.2dmg per hit with a 5.5spd weapon at 5.72delay


But anyway, it's just numbers. You don't really need to see them to know savages are overpowered

 

[marchegiani]

Why do u all bother discrediting what Pin says? You all know hes gonna be right

 

[Ocond]

http://www.reedsburg.com/diane/photos/people/geek.gif

Pin, i finally found a pic of you irl.

 

[Namtih]

looking back at the screenies he was hitting 400 - 500 per hit, i got like 1.4 k hp (as a gimpy sara in epic). i may aswell have sat down and /released as soon as i saw him. Would have taken longer to type it that than to be killed

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

Poor Nam.

You really shouldn't be attacking trolls anyway.

 

[froler-mid]

http://www.nukum.com/ra/Calc.html




lalala, such fine calculator for dis thread

 

[behatch]

Originally posted by Namtih
Last saturday i was running about ganking lowbs in DF with my infil until i saw a 2h troll savage running towards me, thinking that he was a Zerker i ran up and PAed him. He then followed up and four hitted me with his 2H axe, and hitting almost as fast as me, when i was fully buffed using two long dirks. Personally i think that, that proves that Savages are incredibly overpowered

for a start,gimp killing lowbies in df,guess why your still rr2? prat.find something else to whine about apart from savages.
and your dragon fang is over powered anyway.

 

[sigh]

Originally posted by Pin
you can evade h2h easier than evading 2h as the weaponskill is lower
you can parry h2h easier than parrying 2h as the weaponskill is lower, and parry is halved vs 2h weapons

you can block 2h easier than blocking h2h as block is halved vs dual-wielders

what about the rest of the hits? not as if you evade/parry/block all the hits at 1.5 swing time. Having said that, I have had a few solo fights with my merc and pala with 2h/h2h savages taking into considartion that a merc 50 dw 50thrust is poorer against 2h than h2h and my pala 44 slash 42 shield poorer wepskill and hidden wepskill, that is better again 2h than h2h, I would say 2h is the better solo. I got three stlyes off on my merc against nathadorf <2h crush dorf>I wasnt buffed, nor had fumbles up, I got destoryed, and had beaten he/her with fumbles, so knowing he/she was buffed. anyways nothing new here, move along plz
<ps i had yellow abs buff from necro both times and my rr variance between the 2 chars>

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by Kagato.
Yes they need a nerf, but I don't think there as bad as everyone makes out, people just like to whine.

Nice to see Kagato still using his head; when are the rest of you gonna start?

Oh and Fagane, any dual wielder or assisting tank will sort of bypass PBT ( one hit will be nullified though, same goes for savage ).

Time to wake up and smell the brimstone; people aren't using the slowest 2handers there is out there anymore. PBT is close to useless for every realm now ( only hibs has it for 'free' ). Runies specced out of it ( there's practically no runemaster with the best pbt in RvR these days, and not many with pbt at all ), why don't you do the same? ( oh: because it's wrong that you should have to? agreed. I think that too - but it's the same for runemasters )

Always find it funny how every savage swing speed discussion bring up the 'fact' that every god damn savage has it's own personal aug healer... do you have any idea how rare they are, or even how rare it is to get a -useful- celerity off in RvR?

And if you count on celerity to be up, you're not comparing savages vs other solo classes. You're comparing Savage+Healer combo vs other solo classes.

You constant whining will not help the situation.

Savages will get tweaked, yes. But due to the numbers most of you pull out of your behinds, they won't be fixed; but gutted completely.

And for you, that might be as good as a second christmas, but realise that there are people who leveled this ( and other mid-classes that will be next on the list ) -not- to be some overpowered frag-all monster in RvR.

There are some that liked the essence of the character, the beastiality of it. Blind rage and battle roars and whatnot. These people leveled that char up to 50, got to like how they filled that description brilliantly in PvE - only to see their class gutted due to some groups that had to 'wtfpwn' others in RvR. See it become something with soft purrs and a random 'Miau?'. Not until then will you be happy.

Note that the savage is mediocre without buffs. It however becomes a pure beast with the best buffs ( quite a few bots with mota4-5 inspecting bricks at mtk ) available - and that is what should be tweaked, not a generalized downgrade in efficiency even outside the battlefield and across the entire scale - buffs or not.

It hits the casual players harder than the hardcore players you're getting upset about, is that how it's supposed to be? Instead of making the diminishing returns in efficiency as the stats rise more noticable, they instead divide it across the entire scale.

You might chuckle when you read this, and already be hovering over the Reply button to insert an oh-so-funny 'QQ' remark. But I don't care. I'm not playing my savage unless someone in the guild has a need for me to. Reason why I'm not playing it is mostly due to your constant whining about made-up numbers and your refusal to approach it from a neutral viewpoint ( like some of the savages tried, but we got yelled at no matter how hard we tried ).

Those who didn't level it up to be a 'wtfpwn'er will not jump to the next class, 'cause there is no point in doing so. I've already seen you starting to shift into trying to nerf healers/shamans a bit now that you're getting your way with savages. ( not to mention Bonedancers and warrior "why should they have highest WS in game?" )

To be honest I'm starting to get real tired of it. And I'm sure I'm not alone in this. There's no point in rolling any class at all in mid, you'll whine anyway. It's never tweaks you're interested in either - it's taking away class-defining abilities, or cutting the damage into 1/4th or whatever.

Try looking at things from a neutral viewpoint, using realistic situations and thorough tests, for once.

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by froler-mid
http://www.nukum.com/ra/Calc.html




lalala, such fine calculator for dis thread

it's defect.

 

[sigh]

im sorry whisperess, but are you trying to defend solo savages or group savages? either way they are out of line, big fat full stop.
shame it is out of line, the concept is nice, but if mythic take your toy away, alot more people will be happy compared to the unhappy savage comunity. Not only the peeps in alb and hib will be releived, but the rest of the dudes waiting at mtk for a group.

p.s fook pve, means shit tbh, malmo 2 days BS.

 

[noaim]

Originally posted by sigh
im sorry whisperess, but are you trying to defend solo savages or group savages?

Thats funny, I borrowed a friends 2h (yes 2h) pally on excal, ran out in odins, a savage starts beckoning me (one I know has SC-equipment) and I /bow and charge him. Having never played a 2h Pally before, I just used some anytime style (didnt know what styles to use, or which ones were good) and spammed the different chants some to get some kind of twisting, and kicked his ass. But hey, 2h pallys are out of line aswell I suppose.

 

[Belomar]

Originally posted by old.Emma
bla bla bla

Ahh, how surprising, a thread about Savages and old.Emma pops in to try to tell us there is nothing to see here.

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by sigh
im sorry whisperess, but are you trying to defend solo savages or group savages?

Neither, I'm trying to encourage you to try and approach problems from a neutral viewpoint instead or just crying nerf all the time. Look at everything that matters.

Originally posted by sigh
either way they are out of line, big fat full stop.
shame it is out of line, the concept is nice, but if mythic take your toy away, alot more people will be happy compared to the unhappy savage comunity. Not only the peeps in alb and hib will be releived, but the rest of the dudes waiting at mtk for a group.

See, that's what I'm getting at. You want to remove the savage completely, instead of making it a good choice for a group, but far from the only choice. The latter would make everyone happy.

Originally posted by sigh
p.s fook pve, means shit tbh, malmo 2 days BS.

You know, there are aspects to PvE that does not involve leveling? There are some *gasp* that think RvR isn't that fun, but loves questing/hunting epic mobs/exploring.

Not everyone play this game for the RvR part.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Whisperess
You know, there are aspects to PvE that does not involve leveling? There are some *gasp* that think RvR isn't that fun, but loves questing/hunting epic mobs/exploring.

Not everyone play this game for the RvR part.

You know, there are some classes which are complete shit in RvR, and all they can really do is PvE.... Actually, that would be about 50% of them.

And then there are other classes which are great in RvR, but kinda suck at PvE.


So, until all other classes are made perfectly viable for RvR, I don't see you have much complaint about a Savage not being as great as e.g. a Paladin/Necromancer in PvE.

 

[Brisk Mordain]

your not going to whine about savages needing nerfs now are you? i mean you aready killed LA to make zerkers and SB's crap you still want to make yet anouter mid class crap we'll end up with hybreds only in midgard... and besides im glad you got killed couse you where killing lowbies in the first place

 

[Cap'n Sissyfoo]

Plenty more Mid classes to be nerfed.

Then we will start to get the Hib classes nerfed.

Then we will RULE THE WORLD!!

 

[Whisperess]

Originally posted by Pin
So, until all other classes are made perfectly viable for RvR, I don't see you have much complaint about a Savage not being as great as e.g. a Paladin/Necromancer in PvE.

I agree with you there - but is the solution to nerf every other class until everyone is just as bad, or boosting the classes that need help in some way, while tweaking those classes that are above a little so they are just as viable as the rest?

The way many albs want to render mid-classes useless will do nobody good, you have to see this?

I don't care if savages won't be considered the best tank in RvR, since I don't use mine for that. What I do care about is the mentality of most albs and the fact that quite a few mids are leaving for other servers to play a realm that won't be nerfed as bad.

Once again - I wouldn't mind if Savages entered the game with the fixes applied, or even worse - and then get some love instead. It's disencouraging to get a whack with the nerfbat, no matter what realm/class you are.

But that's Mythic for ya - throw in as much as possible to get customers to play them ( just so they'll renew their accounts for a few months ) - then gut them and boost other classes to repeat the process.

 

[Gordonax]

Originally posted by Whisperess
See, that's what I'm getting at. You want to remove the savage completely, instead of making it a good choice for a group, but far from the only choice. The latter would make everyone happy.

Couldn't agree more with all of the above. Savages *do* need some work to bring them a little more into line, but not a complete nerf.

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by Whisperess
I agree with you there - but is the solution to nerf every other class until everyone is just as bad, or boosting the classes that need help in some way, while tweaking those classes that are above a little so they are just as viable as the rest?

The way many albs want to render mid-classes useless will do nobody good, you have to see this?

I don't care if savages won't be considered the best tank in RvR, since I don't use mine for that. What I do care about is the mentality of most albs and the fact that quite a few mids are leaving for other servers to play a realm that won't be nerfed as bad.

Talk all you want about 'most albs'. What you really mean is VN/BW whining trolls that have little clue and just cry all day. Just the same as there are in Midgard and Hibernia. They hear one whine said by someone else and repeat it over and over, increasing in volume until they find something else to cry about.

I don't see myself in this category

Originally posted by Whisperess
Once again - I wouldn't mind if Savages entered the game with the fixes applied, or even worse - and then get some love instead. It's disencouraging to get a whack with the nerfbat, no matter what realm/class you are.

But that's Mythic for ya - throw in as much as possible to get customers to play them ( just so they'll renew their accounts for a few months ) - then gut them and boost other classes to repeat the process.

Well, that's the standard whine from Midgard at the moment.

Instead, you could try and look at it from an unbiased and less-sceptical viewpoint and think that maybe the class was introduced without enough RvR testing, that it's damage was balanced against a pre-1.62 Berserker. That it's survivability was balanced for unbuffed PvE. And many other reasons.

Now, given time to evaluate different operating conditions, and given that Berserker damage was ultimately considered too high, the Savage has been found to need tweaking and is being adjusted accordingly so that one class doesn't completely dominate RvR at the expense of almost all others (from all 3 realms).



Or of course you could just look at it as a huge conspiracy to make it a 2 realm game, that all of Mythic only plays in Alb and other random whines from clueless fotm bandwagon kiddies.


(Oh, and nerf Infiltrators)

 

[Gordonax]

Originally posted by Brisk Mordain
your not going to whine about savages needing nerfs now are you? i mean you aready killed LA to make zerkers and SB's crap

Yes, zerkers are really crap now. That's why Zzang got more rps than anyone else on the server in the last seven days.

What you really mean is "since they nerfed LA and you actually had to start using skill to win in RvR". Like Zzang does - and you obviously don't.

 

[Pandemic]

simply delete the savage class it does exactly the same grp role as the zerker so it was never needed for midgard. lazy people at mythic couldn't think of an original class to add

warrior/sm grps > savage grps anyway

 

[o_O]

Originally posted by Pandemic
warrior/sm grps > savage grps anyway

I hope you are trying to make a funneh! and dont beleve what you just spewed out here

 

[Pin]

Originally posted by lovley_gal
I hope you are trying to make a funneh! and dont beleve what you just spewed out here

No, he's saying that 2 (slamming) warriors, each guarding a SM, and those SMs having buffed, intercepting pets also guarding them, they have a caster group with 2 high-damage PBAE casters who are virtually immune to melee damage and can spam nukes for as long as they have power.

 

[Pandemic]

Originally posted by Pin
No, he's saying that 2 (slamming) warriors, each guarding a SM, and those SMs having buffed, intercepting pets also guarding them, they have a caster group with 2 high-damage PBAE casters who are virtually immune to melee damage and can spam nukes for as long as they have power.

yeah its great although theres a really easy way to kill that grp off but until that happens it is a great way of dealing with an alb zerg

 

[Lumikki]

Originally posted by Namtih
Last saturday i was running about ganking lowbs in DF with my infil

And that's enough reason why you deserved to be ganked to dust.

xx

 

[old.Emma]

Originally posted by Gordonax
Yes, zerkers are really crap now. That's why Zzang got more rps than anyone else on the server in the last seven days.

What you really mean is "since they nerfed LA and you actually had to start using skill to win in RvR". Like Zzang does - and you obviously don't.

Last 2 times ive seen him he was using that lag trick.. Which causes you to get out of view or too far away messages even if he`s right smack bang infront of you.

Doesnt matter who the player is if they abuse bugs/exploits they can eat shit for all i care.

PS Not saying he was abusing bugs as it might have been actual lag not a bug/trick/exploit ;p

 

[Pandemic]

Originally posted by old.Emma
Last 2 times ive seen him he was using that lag trick
Not saying he was abusing bugs

eh?

 

[brommix]

Whisperess, you honestly believe that all the numbers from the RESPECTED people of this community, about the savages are pure propeganda or even lies? Whenever you see a mid group that just sends their savages out like bloody tomahawk missiles who doesnt even have to assist...well you should know something is wrong then, its just like a cannonbullit smashing its way through people, and there are no other tanks in the game who come close their damage output and surviveabillity combined, when you match that with a couple or 3good healers all hib and alb groups are at odds 1 in 10 to win that fight, if that is your perception of fun gaming and game balance you wont scory any points with me....not that you would want anyways
Savages destroys the game in more than one way, Albs agree now that we just Zerg the fuck out of them, i consider it a fair fight to lead 30 albs to 1fg mids with savages in it, I will assist hibs at anytime anywhere fighting savage groups Savage groups in the end kills of midgaard as a realm, because the elitism attitude in midgaard denies you of the good natured RVR players so you will mostly be outnumbered when you exclude half your possible rvr population. If I could I would arrange for hibs and albs to only rvr with each other and leave mids to themselves in empty zones, there are no glory, no fun, no achievement in fighting savage groups as the imbalance is so great that the matter of skills are indifferent.