Respect "Charter"

[Jjuraa]

Why? Given how the game was designed, marketed and sold (i.e. realm v realm) there is absolutely nothing wrong with him attacking anything with a red name anywhere. You have decided you want private fights and that is your choice, but the rest of the population are under no obligation to go along with that. You really need to grasp that. Having said that, in the interests of people getting along better, the attempt was to try and come to some common understandings that gives you and your friends an area to fight in, while making sure you recognise that people are perfectly entitled to play the game as it was sold. Sad thing is there really doesn't seem to be much willingness on either side of the fence to stand in the other person's shoes.

(Sorry to use this example again, but i swear its the only one that can get through the thick skulls of FH's Finest)

Ima come fuck your girlfriend bracken. i know you have a great relationship with her, but ive been thinking about it and have decided that i dont care about you. ive talked to her and shes quite happy to go along with it. Im under no obligation, other than common decency, to refrain from doing so. so why should i after all? lots of other people do it, it must be alright.

and for gods sake dont say "but daoc is a game". i KNOW that, its an exagerrated example of what youre saying, youre saying common decency has no place because daoc is a game, and that is what is retarded about your argument

 

[Jjuraa]

WHENVER THE FUCK DID I SAY THAT. Jezus, nevermind, no point debating with someone who is so stuburn that he will turn arround arguments into complete bs.

You didn't understand anything about what I said.

Also you saying: "don't insult US because the COC says it's ok" phrase just makes me laugh.

think its fairly safe to say youve lost the plot in this argument, nevermind. you can try again in the next whinethread

 

[griralith]

More than half of the players i know have no clue what FH is.

As a result, this is pointless.

more and more i am getting to the point i just think :

`this is a free for all game. Who are you and where do you even get the audacity to ASK (ask, haha) me to change my behaviour if all my actions are OK with the rules, CoC, and only violate YOUR SELF-SET standards ?`

yay some1 got it right.... all u "omfg i never added on any1 yadda yadda etc" a excellent adders/solo/grey gankers urelf. Adding can be fooking lame but its a part of the game.... its rape or get raped. personally i think its rather fun when another nmy grp is inc in middle of fight... every1 can wipe a fg, but the fun only start with next grp and so on...

I expect to get added/zerged whatever when i port out from cs... why shouldnt i? that was the treament all the "charter" guys gave me back in the days, so for me its payback time whenever the chance is there.... childish maybe, but very rewarding EVERY time....

 

[Bracken]

comes over as a misguided crusade along side a bit of ego massaging

It came about because I was f*cked off with some of the attitudes in the game - particularly when people (usually fg'ers) gobbed off from the safety of behind their pcs knowing there would be no consequences. That became an idea of f*cking up fg rvr to create pressure on the fg community to change attitudes - creating a link between how people acted and direct consequences (just as happens in real life). After listening to some people who were a bit more mild tempered than me, I came up with this attempt to try and reach some understandings so we got on better as a community of players. So it may well have been misguided, but I can assure you my ego doesn't need any massaging

 

[Gahn]

It came about because I was f*cked off with some of the attitudes in the game - particularly when people (usually fg'ers) gobbed off from the safety of behind their pcs knowing there would be no consequences. That became an idea of f*cking up fg rvr to create pressure on the fg community to change attitudes - creating a link between how people acted and direct consequences (just as happens in real life). After listening to some people who were a bit more mild tempered than me, I came up with this attempt to try and reach some understandings so we got on better as a community of players. So it may well have been misguided, but I can assure you my ego doesn't need any massaging

I really don't get your attitude, u ask other ppl to try and stay in your shoes when, with your kinda play style, u clearly never bothered of what is the willing of other peeps, nevermind their fun.
If u find it funny to steamroll everything in sight with greater numbers, do it against Npcs, after all they gonna be always there and won't quit in frustration cause u ruined their fun.
On another hand, i won't brag too much about the zergy thing transported in Agramon to ruin other ppl fun; cause u know, what goes around comes around; and really u don't wanna have every night for 1 month a BG of 6 fixed groups running around steamrolling everything.

 

[Aadia]

Just because they know about the "rule" (as you call it) doesn't mean they agree with it or care about it.

EXACTLY!!! Which is why the whole discussion has been going on for the last few days!!!!!

 

[Baron]

Hey donkey - hack off

edit: oops typo I meant fuck off

 

[MaCaBr3]

think its fairly safe to say youve lost the plot in this argument, nevermind. you can try again in the next whinethread

I didn't argument shit smartass, because there is no point argumenting against you since you turn everything what is said into whatever fits your answer. I told you if you think I'm twat then that's just your problem.

The fact is this: you focused on the fact that I have added on fights, what you didn't read, because you brain is trained on focusing on the word "add", is that I clearely typed that I don't do it all the time. hence the hypocrisy

I also repeat, if you think i'm twat, go ahead. Then ur saying: now your blahblah magic wand bs and say that ur not a twat, because I'm doing it something something.

What does that have to do with anything? You wanna mark me as a twat: boohbooh, do you want me to say: hey now that I think about it, I AM A TWAT!!!oneone!!

You just want me to admit that i'm a twat. With his totally not the point of this discussion.

so don't come and think u won anything in this debate.

 

[Javai]

(Sorry to use this example again, but i swear its the only one that can get through the thick skulls of FH's Finest)

Ima come fuck your girlfriend bracken. i know you have a great relationship with her, but ive been thinking about it and have decided that i dont care about you. ive talked to her and shes quite happy to go along with it. Im under no obligation, other than common decency, to refrain from doing so. so why should i after all? lots of other people do it, it must be alright.

and for gods sake dont say "but daoc is a game". i KNOW that, its an exagerrated example of what youre saying, youre saying common decency has no place because daoc is a game, and that is what is retarded about your argument

Its a crap example - you are comparing something which is more or less a community wide value (the girlfriend example) to justify something that is not a community wide value (fg vs fg rvr).

 

[Jjuraa]

Its a crap example - you are comparing something which is more or less a community wide value (the girlfriend example) to justify something that is not a community wide value (fg vs fg rvr).

Do you have any real world experiance? Believe me the girlfriend example is not a community wide value it gets broken a hell of a lot. Just like FG vs FG rvr.

Thats why its such a good comparison.

 

[Gazon]

is it now?

do elaborate

I elaborated below that line:

Quote from the "Charter":
"8. Equally, if you purposely go within the milegates of Agramon without provocation with the intention of acting against the understandings of the community you may face similar action."

=Don't add on my Agramon fight or you'll be kicked out of the community?
It's just add whinage in Charter form...

 

[Javai]

Do you have any real world experiance? Believe me the girlfriend example is not a community wide value it gets broken a hell of a lot. Just like FG vs FG rvr example.

Thats why its such a good comparison.

Just because it gets broken doesn't remove the fact that it is generally agreed to be unacceptable behaviour. There is no such agreement on 'adding' as testified to by getting on for 50 pages of posts between the various threads discussing it.

And no I have no real world experience I have existed purely on-line for 36 years :eek2:

 

[Muylaetrix]

If u find it funny to steamroll everything in sight with greater numbers, do it against Npcs, after all they gonna be always there and won't quit in frustration cause u ruined their fun.

Will that stop the FG`s to attack anything that doesn`t run with 8?

Should we check via irc if we have persmision to attack a fg in advance ? just to be sure all ra`s are up and it is a 'fair' fight ?

How can one be sure if one sees 1 single oponent running around that he isn`t chasing a stealther and he considers himself in a 1 vs 1 ?

can`t make omelets without breaking eggs, sorry.

 

[Baron]

#32 Today, 01:44 PM
Zede
Scrounging Bastard Join Date: 30th Jan 2004
Posts: 0


Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron
Dont worry about them Malc
Most of our allience hate AoD
It started with the insults but reached a peak when they dropped Crim to lvl1 but wouldn't release it so another guild could hold it.
I should stop logging into /as with " Hi Guys - don't forget to add on AoD today "
Sorry to all the decent hib or mid groups who want a fg vs fg fight but it's only AoD



My apologies Malc, I got a different impression of your play style from your posts, I was wrong and I acknowledge that fact !

As for Baron......you have made it clear you dont mind adding on anyone, anywhere at any time. Back tracking and trying to make out its just AoD wont change that. The Iron Wind thanks to your efforts have the reputation of being No1 Fg vs Fg adding group from Albion. Congratulations.

AoD have had some disputes with the likes of Severance. After alot of recent posts, ( "Insults") its pretty clear we are actually both want the same thing. People like you put this all into perspective.

Swollow your pride and just try going to Agramon for 1 week and respecting all the other FGs there - just 1 week - do it, it may actually be fun.

Fair enough - it's not anyone just AoD
Make Haggus change his attitude or things wont change

 

[Jjuraa]

Just because it gets broken doesn't remove the fact that it is generally agreed to be unacceptable behaviour. There is no such agreement on 'adding' as testified to by getting on for 50 pages of posts between the various threads discussing it.

And no I have no real world experience I have existed purely on-line for 36 years :eek2:

Its not "generally agreed to be unacceptable behaviour" though? There are no laws that state "you cannot steal someones girlfriend". People dont steal other peoples girlfriends because they have this sense, inside them, that making other people hurt (the guy who loses his gf) is wrong. Just like some people (I.E me) Dont add on other peoples fights, because i know that if i add, im pissing them off, upsetting them or whatever, and i know that thats wrong. Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. The rule i live by, maybe im stupid for doing so.

The only reason adding happens more than girlfriend stealing is because people feel more safe from repercussions behind their computer screen, where they can imagine away all the bad things.

 

[Bracken]

youre saying common decency has no place because daoc is a game, and that is what is retarded about your argument

Everything I've put forward in this thread is about common decency tbh. You're just demonstrating why I was misguided.

 

[Castus]

Just keep it simple.if its red kill it if its green pity it and if its VF gangbang away. Pain in the ass on vent when i`m stopping grp from killing certain people cos they don`t add on me etc.Esp when they then turn round and atack us cos theres a zerg inc etc.

 

[Javai]

Its not "generally agreed to be unacceptable behaviour" though? There are no laws that state "you cannot steal someones girlfriend". People dont steal other peoples girlfriends because they have this sense, inside them, that making other people hurt (the guy who loses his gf) is wrong. Just like some people (I.E me) Dont add on other peoples fights, because i know that if i add, im pissing them off, upsetting them or whatever, and i know that thats wrong. Treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. The rule i live by, maybe im stupid for doing so.

The only reason adding happens more than girlfriend stealing is because people feel more safe from repercussions behind their computer screen, where they can imagine away all the bad things.

You either are not reading what I write or simply don't understand - the evidence is that a large proportion of the community see nothing wrong in 'adding' in fact they think that is what the game is all about.

It had NOTHING to do with being behind a computer screen, I would not steal someone's girlfriend (well being female that raisea a whole new set of issues) because I live in a society that in general respects monogamous relationships and I have been socialised to respect that as well. The DaoC society is divided on what is acceptable behaviour with regards to adding in rvr and that is why the analogy doesn't work.

 

[MaCaBr3]

Ok i'm probably an asshole for not understanding this: but why do people have the need to implement general rules of conduct and understanding used in society into a game??

what's my argument for nothing having them you ask? because it's a freaking game.

Yes that's my only valid argument, it's a game.

 

[Javai]

Ok i'm probably an asshole for not understanding this: but why do people have the need to implement general rules of conduct and understanding used in society into a game??

what's my argument for nothing having them you ask? because it's a freaking game.

Yes that's my only valid argument, it's a game.

So is football yet you can be disciplined about conduct (rather than breaking the actual game rules) nonetheless.

 

[Bracken]

really u don't wanna have every night for 1 month a BG of 6 fixed groups running around steamrolling everything.

It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. I like zerg fights Aslong as you are starting to grasp the principle of actions and consequences then this hasn't been a totally wasted excercise...

 

[Baron]

Well Bracken you tried buddy
in conclusion
You add = all good
you abuse = ban
Sounds great to me

 

[eggy]

I've Solved It!

As you can see from this graph below, there is a clear indirect proportion between number of monkeys and amount of custard when using the adds per hour scale.

Source: Reuters

At the rate of 5 adds per hour, the crossing of the monkeys and custard results in banana flavoured custard.

Note: this may not be entirely scientific.

 

[Zebolt]

EXACTLY!!! Which is why the whole discussion has been going on for the last few days!!!!!

A discussion on a forum won't change anything at all. If you think it will...... well :x

 

[Jjuraa]

I have been socialised to respect that as well.

yes but WHY have you been socialised like that? its not something random is it, your parents didnt decide "heheh i know lets bring our daughter up thinking that its wrong to ruin relationships".

No, its just something that ISNT DONE, out of respect for people. Just like adding.

Were you bought up to assume its ok to only think about yourself? Or were you bought up to think of other people?

 

[Forfid]

After the "discussions" of the past few days, I figured it was time to put forward something that summarises what many people who play this game (from all sides of the community) want. I've given it the cheesy title of the Respect Charter.

Feel free to discuss it, make suggestions and so on. We might not agree on everything, but hopefully it's something that can evolve over time. It's a starting point. If you think it's something that might work then feel free to post it on your guild websites. The aim is to try and improve people's gaming experience by improving the atmosphere within the community - something I think most people want. So anyways, here it is...



The Respect Charter

1. This Charter is not a set of rules. It is a list of understandings that various sections of the DAOC community have agreed to play to. The intention is to improve the atmosphere within the community and therefore people's gaming experience.

2. DAOC was designed, marketed and sold as a Realm versus Realm game. Enemies are highlighted with a red name over their character and can be freely attacked. This is the traditional way of playing that many enjoy. However, DAOC also allows for many other playstyles. That's the beauty of the game and all playstyles deserve to be respected.

3. People have the right to play the game free from abuse or being belittled. With that comes responsibility for their own actions towards others.

4. To enable those who prefer pure "full group" rvr to enjoy their chosen playstyle, an easily defined zone has been adopted. This zone is the area within the milegates of Agramon.

5. Within this area, certain ways of playing are understood by the community. Firstly, a fight that is already underway should be allowed to finish. i.e. there should be no "adds". Secondly, enemies should be attacked with a maximum of an 8 man group i.e. should not be "zerged". Thirdly, any solo players within the zone should be allowed to freely pass. Soloers should equally respect the first 2 conditions. (This enables the possibility for soloers to also find fights within Agramon if they choose, or to pass through it).

6. Outside of the Milegates of Agramon, any enemy can be attacked on sight. Abusing people who do this is unacceptable to the community.

7. If you abuse someone who is simply playing the game as they are entitled to then you can expect direct action to be taken by the community on your own gaming experience. This may involve having your fights constantly and purposely targetted or it may involve some other sanction from the community (e.g. being excluded from raids/ having your CM boycotted etc).

8. Equally, if you purposely go within the milegates of Agramon without provocation with the intention of acting against the understandings of the community you may face similar action.

9. If someone acts in a way that is against the spirit of this charter, then the first action should be to check that they are actually aware of it. Not everyone will have read it - indeed many won't. If that person/group hasn't read it, provide them with a link to it. If they have read it already, it may still be a mistake. People should not be abused. Remember that these aren't rules, and people paying their subscriptions are free to act however they wish within the GOA CoC, even when that is against community understandings. However, where people wilfully go against what the rest of the community has agreed upon, they may well face action by the community in the ways outlined earlier.

10. If you make a mistake then simply apologise. That avoids any misunderstandings and further consequences.

11. Finally, remember that you are playing with other human beings. How you act and what you say does affect them. We all essentially want the same thing - to enjoy our time online. With that in mind, think about how you are acting and speaking to others.




A couple of final notes.

I know this may not satisfactorily deal with the issue of 1v1 fights. I've put in the suggestion of soloers being part of Agramon purely because I couldn't think of a better idea- although it might actually work. If others can think of other ideas that could realistically work better for 1v1 then feel free to post it. Of course you might already have an area for that which is only known to those who go there

The other point is about the issue of fg adds. I know some fg'ers believe that there shouldn't be adds on any fights, while others say that 3-way fights are fine. I've put in that it's any fight that is under way - but really I leave that to the fg'ers to sort out for themselves.

As I said, this is a starting point. So /discuss away

If you start paying my subscription i will start to play as you like.

 

[Septima]

Really i don't understand why people whine. I can understand why people add or not add, why they kill an enemy on 30% or not why they zerg or whatever, but i can't understand is all their whine about the actions of other human being. People who whine don't reallize that there is no comon sense shared by a so vast community, comming from at least 20(or more) diferent countrys, with ages going from the 12 to the 40+ and diferent social backgrounds or game experiences?? You can't expect that people will, on a freedom space, act exactly as you like they would, and understand your frustration: it's not possible.

People who whine shall think that they can expect everything from this game when they enter a rvr zone, and when i say everything i mean everything good or bad (sharing they point of view or not) and that they can't do anything about it, it's not under your control.

Now 2 points, if you actually like to whine and that's make you feel better, well go ahead and just ignore what i said above
Second point, Agramon should be a fgvsfg only aerea and maybe transformed on somekind of instance where only fg's would be allowed to enter. Will not solve anything (fg's could always add on other fg's after all) but the odd soloer and the odd zerg will not be anymore a good reason to start whine threads.

My 2 cents, /peace and out.


(PS:good try Bracken the intention was good )

 

[Javai]

yes but WHY have you been socialised like that? its not something random is it, your parents didnt decide "heheh i know lets bring our daughter up thinking that its wrong to ruin relationships".

No, its just something that ISNT DONE, out of respect for people. Just like adding.

Why I have been socialised like that is because it is a norm in the society in which I live, and largely derived from the dominant christian religion which values monogamous relationships - if I lived in a different type of society that would not be the norm it is NOT an innate human value (for example, I could have been brought up in a free love commune).

I repeat since you are still not getting it - breaking up relationship is (for most of us) going against a social norm. There is no agreed norm in the DaoC regarding adding.

 

[limpit]

oh oh, i wanna join in!

i don't RvR much, but when I do its the old 'if the name is red, kill it' thing like the game is designed...

yeah i've had many pm's from people claiming i've ruined their 1 vs 1 fight, and from fg ppl moaning coz i added on their group zerg (and ruined their fraps movie )... but i know i'm never going to change the way I play unless GoA/Mythic say I have to..

the only solution for people to get to play how they want is for special rules to be coded, like a BG for soloers where once a person has engaged into combat with another player, they are immune from other peoples attack for a set time... or for a fg vs. fg BG instance type thing... fg vs. fg, last man standing...

but until then: don't care who they are, who they're attacking, or the situation... if i see an enemy, i will try to kill it, no matter the situation...

 

[Jjuraa]

Why I have been socialised like that is because it is a norm in the society in which I live, and largely derived from the dominant christian religion which values monogamous relationships - if I lived in a different type of society that would not be the norm it is NOT an innate human value (for example, I could have been brought up in a free love commune).

I repeat since you are still not getting it - breaking up relationship is (for most of us) going against a social norm. There is no agreed norm in the DaoC regarding adding.

well this is utterly pointless, because as well as repeating your argument and then accusing me of not reading, youre also not reading (or at least, not understanding) my argument either.