Reduce Magic Damage...

[willowywicca]

hmm afaik you cannot debuff someone below 0% resist anymore. Dont know if that still apply to %piercing but I assume 0% is 0%

You can, it's just harder to because of the halved effectiveness of debuffs on item/racial resists.

 

[Saggy]

Debuffs work the following way, first they benefit from being spec spells, so it's 125% of delve, the 50% debuff really is 62% and the 30% debuff is 37%. Debuffs were nerfed a while ago, and are halved in value against resists apart from resist buffs, and it's still possible to debuff below 0%.

For instance, someone with 26% item resists will be debuffed down to -5% with the 50% debuff as it's halved (so 62% / 2 = 31%). If that same person had 24% resist buff, then 24% of the 62% would debuff that, leaving 38% which is halved, so 19%, and that person would end up at 7% resists. 10% resist pierce and that person would end up at -3% in that case (AFAIK).

Thanks for the info

 

[Shike]

You can, it's just harder to because of the halved effectiveness of debuffs on item/racial resists.

aha, thought they nerfed debuffs to never debuff to under 0%..

I stand corrected

 

[TiwiS]

aye, i've had positive nukes from stealthers that had been debuffed with heat legendary weapons

 

[Konah]

not sure about reduce magic dmg, but there should certainly be more ways to nullify it. when u look at how many ways there are to cripple melee dmg:

pbt
ablatives
af buffs/charges
abs buffs
str/con dex/qui debuffs (wheres the int/dex debuffs??)

and thats ignoring RR5 abilities, MLs, RAs and obscure arti abilities like disarm, among MANY others.

and on the anti-magic side what do we have:

resist buffs
interrupts
umm... :kissit:

 

[TiwiS]

the fact that there are less tricks to nullify them doesn't mean they are worth less...

try playing a caster with a tank on you... fon fun meight... can start running around for the entire fight without getting a cast off

 

[Equendil]

not sure about reduce magic dmg, but there should certainly be more ways to nullify it. when u look at how many ways there are to cripple melee dmg:

pbt
ablatives
af buffs/charges
abs buffs
str/con dex/qui debuffs (wheres the int/dex debuffs??)

and thats ignoring RR5 abilities, MLs, RAs and obscure arti abilities like disarm, among MANY others.

and on the anti-magic side what do we have:

resist buffs
interrupts
umm... :kissit:

If you'd rather fumble everytime someone is so much as looking at you, be my guest.

 

[Tuorin]

Most effective groups seem to be a mix of tanks and casters anyway. Groups full of casters without bodyguard can inflict heavy damage faster if they win drop and can be very effective, however having quite a few insta interupts on bds(interupt that damages ofc), shamans and so on is one of the reasons these groups do so well, not necessarily just their skill level. Mixed Hib grp with Ml8+ BL Bms and casters does pretty well and having a bodyguard works well. No-one wins every fight anymore as far as most can see. Which in itself is a good thing, no op Hibs pre SI, op Albs bof/sos time, or op Mids with 3x savages time. 1.68 Hibs with bodyguard n grapple bug, 1.69 Rm pierce bug, 1.70 reaver bomb. 1.71 aint too bad tbrh. 1.72 helps some melee with shield swipe and then fz nerf arrives which will be nicer against mids in particular maybe..

 

[TiwiS]

then catacombs arrives and it's back to square one \o/

 

[Foadon]

try playing a caster with a tank on you... fon fun meight... can start running around for the entire fight without getting a cast off

try playing a tank with a caster on you from start, its real easy laying in the dirt/snow/grass dead, yep
theres plenty of ways to get a tank off you, its called CC, root mez stun snare, but amagad, that would actually require teamwork Oo

 

[Shike]

the fact that there are less tricks to nullify them doesn't mean they are worth less...

try playing a caster with a tank on you... fon fun meight... can start running around for the entire fight without getting a cast off

scenario 1: run to BGer and cast and/or have the tank grappled, run off. Not that hard really

scenario 2: put stunning etc pet on tank and run off. (if you got one)

scenario 3: wait until he loose the turbo (charge) and QC-CC him.

scenario 4: ask for CC from group.

scenario 5: pop some ubarRA (some casterclasses have funky rr5stuff) and MoC and ignore him when Demor has gone.

scenario 6: pop endpots and kite for yer life.

or something... just listing a couple possible scenarios really. Swings both ways.. but to say you just can run, isnt totally right.

 

[Gahn]

Ye

26%(items)+24%(buffs)+5%(racial)=55%, 30%(debuff, essential to any semi-balanced caster groups)+10%(piercing)=40% -> 15%+RAs to fight against, 0%+RAs with 50% debuff (like I said in my first post I have neve bothered testing does resists go belove 0% and are resists from RAs debuffable). Caster damage without debuff should be far worse than its now, imo

I think u hit the real problem here, debuffs are what makes casters hit too hard against tanks and support.
I don't wanna be forced to buy AoM 5 (which is crap anyway) just to counter a debuff nuker tbh.

 

[Maleg]

I think u hit the real problem here, debuffs are what makes casters hit too hard against tanks and support.
I don't wanna be forced to buy AoM 5 (which is crap anyway) just to counter a debuff nuker tbh.

AoM 5 isn't worth it, but AoM 3 or 4 combined with EM2 or BAoD2 is extremely effective (I know BAoD isn't a Tank RA but should be able to squeeze it into a fair few viable setups).

Hibs can usually achieve 40%+ resists on most group setups, for 25 Realm Skill points you could have an extra 30% (10% passive AoM, 20% Active EM). This gives an effective 58% resists for the duration of EM vs non-debuff nukers.

What some people forget is debuffs only affect Tier1 resists, therefore if you do get debuffed the effictiveness of Tier2 increases to the point where you'd have 30% resists if Tier1 is debuffed to 0.

 

[Gahn]

Ye

AoM 5 isn't worth it, but AoM 3 or 4 combined with EM2 or BAoD2 is extremely effective (I know BAoD isn't a Tank RA but should be able to squeeze it into a fair few viable setups).

Hibs can usually achieve 40%+ resists on most group setups, for 25 Realm Skill points you could have an extra 30% (10% passive AoM, 20% Active EM). This gives an effective 58% resists for the duration of EM vs non-debuff nukers.

What some people forget is debuffs only affect Tier1 resists, therefore if you do get debuffed the effictiveness of Tier2 increases to the point where you'd have 30% resists if Tier1 is debuffed to 0.

I know Maleg on paper EM2 + AoM4 is a better return in terms of point spent altho EM is on 10 mins base, can argue that u can have it up for 45 sec every other fight, but that leaves me pants down every other fight on another hand :/
I guess it's all about an half empty or half full glass of wine point of view.
And with 40% base resists i can always be debuffed to -10% with a 50% debuff if am not wrong.

 

[Boggy]

I'd like to see magic damage reduced just to slow the fights down a bit, even without the balance issues. At the moment fights are over too quickly to enjoy them.

 

[TiwiS]

try playing a tank with a caster on you from start, its real easy laying in the dirt/snow/grass dead, yep
theres plenty of ways to get a tank off you, its called CC, root mez stun snare, but amagad, that would actually require teamwork Oo

1) well tanks purge mezz/root or have a fair bit of cc reduction due to ra's.
after that they are immune for 1 min (usually the rest of the fight), i won't even bother with stun as it's so short and you get the tank right back on you afterwards.

2) tanks often run through you when you do qc root

3) you especially shouldn't complain about tanks being weak as we can only put you down if we have 3 casters assisting on you

scenario 1: run to BGer and cast and/or have the tank grappled, run off. Not that hard really

scenario 2: put stunning etc pet on tank and run off. (if you got one)

scenario 3: wait until he loose the turbo (charge) and QC-CC him.

scenario 4: ask for CC from group.

scenario 5: pop some ubarRA (some casterclasses have funky rr5stuff) and MoC and ignore him when Demor has gone.

scenario 6: pop endpots and kite for yer life.

or something... just listing a couple possible scenarios really. Swings both ways.. but to say you just can run, isnt totally right.

1) aye works great, i agree. a bg'er can only bg one target at a time so he has to make a choice, i bet that healer spreading for the entire group gets priority
2) im not a hib you see
3) tanks usually run through, and even when it lands it breaks very soon or it's already immune
5) wall of flame is nice, but it doesn't take down a tank when they have healers. sometimes it helps though cause the fear effect is cool.
6) tank has end pots too , sometimes kiting is all that's left for me and i run around the battlefield for a minute or so. good fun D:

 

[Maleg]

I know Maleg on paper EM2 + AoM4 is a better return in terms of point spent altho EM is on 10 mins base, can argue that u can have it up for 45 sec every other fight, but that leaves me pants down every other fight on another hand :/
I guess it's all about an half empty or half full glass of wine point of view.
And with 40% base resists i can always be debuffed to -10% with a 50% debuff if am not wrong.

There is no "I win" set-up, but a 10 minute reset timer isn't too bad, especially if you only pop EM if you get MA'ed or bombed. Having BAoD / SB in the group also helps but requires co-ordination to ensure you don't double up. Finally we tend to make heavy use of Banelord ML's, they have a significant impact.

All that said this works far better in skirmish fighting, if you run into a Zerg or you're in a standoff situation then to be fair you're screwed.

 

[Lokir]

last week rp top 100

casters:thurgist/cabby/wizzy/menta/eld/ench/sm/rm/bd/sorc/necro/ani 31
total classes 12
top100 31

lighttank: bm/zerk/merc/savage:6
hybrid tanks:reaver/thane/champ/pally/skald/valewalker/warden 8
Real tanks:warr/arms/hero 1

total classes:14
Top100 15

Dunno if my setup with the tankclasses are right but its not the issue.
I would guess the diffrence get bigger and bigger further down (a guess thou).

In my opinion casters are in need of a fix (not a big nerf) with castingspeed. Relics need a nerf or change. and NF need less towers.
The anti tank rr5 RAs some caster get need a change.Caster should be dead in 90% of the cases a tank reach em and no other class help them.
Its mostly the combo caster+tower/keep that make em look like they are way over the top (want to add archer to this).

 

[Maleg]

1) aye works great, i agree. a bg'er can only bg one target at a time so he has to make a choice, i bet that healer spreading for the entire group gets priority
2) im not a hib you see
3) tanks usually run through, and even when it lands it breaks very soon or it's already immune
5) wall of flame is nice, but it doesn't take down a tank when they have healers. sometimes it helps though cause the fear effect is cool.
6) tank has end pots too , sometimes kiting is all that's left for me and i run around the battlefield for a minute or so. good fun D:

1) Group I play in (with Shike) healer is secondary consideration for BG. Squishys always take priority, especially as they're either DPS or CC in an Alb group. Normally have 2 Healers, they're less squishy and have instas.
2) Neither is Shike Albs still have some stun / snaring pets though, all be it in a nerfed state now.

Unless your group is very caster heavy a good BG tanks and healers should be able to keep a nuker a live. As far as I can see a nukers worst enemy is another nuker.

 

[Maleg]

last week rp top 100

casters:thurgist/cabby/wizzy/menta/eld/ench/sm/rm/bd/sorc/necro/ani 31
total classes 12
top100 31

lighttank: bm/zerk/merc/savage:6
hybrid tanks:reaver/thane/champ/pally/skald/valewalker/warden 8
Real tanks:warr/arms/hero 1

total classes:14
Top100 15

Dunno if my setup with the tankclasses are right but its not the issue.
I would guess the diffrence get bigger and bigger further down (a guess thou).

In my opinion casters are in need of a fix (not a big nerf) with castingspeed. Relics need a nerf or change. and NF need less towers.
Its mostly the combo caster+tower/keep that make em look like they are way over the top (want to add archer to this).

Main difference in RP's could be attributed to the fact casters can earn decent RP's in Keep fights and be solo / duo or in a group with virtually no support where as tanks can't. I guess that means there are less RvR oportunitys for tanks at the moment.

 

[xxManiacxx]

Aom4 + EM1 works wonders for me against legendary weapons atleast

To bad I am slash vurnable also

 

[Aussie]

ye capping castspeed at 1.6 or 250dex sure would make CC war balanced

 

[Puppet]

ye capping castspeed at 1.6 or 250dex sure would make CC war balanced

Not like its balanced now :rollseyes:

Anyhow discussion about CC is something different; perhaps up the cast-time delve of damage-spells abit if u afraid Albion looses its advantage with the higher DEX on the CC-classes :O

 

[Shike]

1) aye works great, i agree. a bg'er can only bg one target at a time so he has to make a choice, i bet that healer spreading for the entire group gets priority
2) im not a hib you see
3) tanks usually run through, and even when it lands it breaks very soon or it's already immune
5) wall of flame is nice, but it doesn't take down a tank when they have healers. sometimes it helps though cause the fear effect is cool.
6) tank has end pots too , sometimes kiting is all that's left for me and i run around the battlefield for a minute or so. good fun D:

1) uhm, a good BGer is flexible and move around and use his sense for the gameflow to help aswell. Aint as if he stand like a dummy and just BG one person, at least, thats how our pally in our group play. Yell more at your BGer if he play bad.
2) nope, I can see that in your sig, I meant casters in general, some classes has pets that can be used for gettin tanks off. This isnt about your caster in specific, just some general tips for fending off tanks.
3) does this always happen?
4) dunno why u ignored this point since its extremely important to cooperate in a group. Without that you are doomed anyhow.
5) Wall of flames is kinda nice, cooperate with group to kite in eventual tanks into it and you have a nice damageaddition. MoC ensures you can keep on casting with a tank on you to interrupt enemycasters or healers or maybe even kill them.
6) Sure tanks have endpots, so do you. You never kite? I kited shetloads when I played chanter, was sometimes only way of surviving tanks. And that was with or without snaring pet, mostly just with end+sprint. If you got brittles up you should survive long enough to reach your BGer at least.

aaaanyways..

 

[TiwiS]

1) sure he switches, and it's a great protection vs tanks. but it's not like he can be everywhere right?

2)i dont really see how a pet can get a tank off unless it's a chain stunning pet though.

3)no not always, but you'd be surprised how many tanks abuse that bug

4) hm must have overlooked it.. even still immunity timer of 1 minute roxxors my single root almost never lands cause somebody's been rooted before

5) well MoC is kinda expensive and unless it's at lvl 3 (30 points ) you do totally gimped dmg, which you give up for more dmg overall (cause you spend 30 points, which could've gone to dex,int,mom or wp)

6) well i do kite, sometimes it's just like there's no end to it so zzz



it's not that i totally disagree with you. i just don't agree with the view of casters being absolute gods that kill tanks by just looking at them.
there are situations where a caster is completely helpless and as a tank you should look for those situations and exploit them (exploit situations, not bugs -look at #3 )

i still have the feeling that tanks want to be gods themselves and that a little clothwearing gimp shouldn't be able to hurt them.
well this is no longer SI and and yes casters are very powerfull now, perhaps a bit to powerfull. but i'll be damned if we go back to SI

 

[Shike]

it's not that i totally disagree with you. i just don't agree with the view of casters being absolute gods that kill tanks by just looking at them.
there are situations where a caster is completely helpless and as a tank you should look for those situations and exploit them (exploit situations, not bugs -look at #3 )

i still have the feeling that tanks want to be gods themselves and that a little clothwearing gimp shouldn't be able to hurt them.
well this is no longer SI and and yes casters are very powerfull now, perhaps a bit to powerfull. but i'll be damned if we go back to SI

hmm, Im just pointing out how i view things, I consider casters and tanks to be pretty much on par overall, tanks have their strenghts and casters have theirs. Problems are in NF's design where tanks lack a natural role in the keepenvironment. I have practically nothing to do at a keepsiege and might aswell log if it would come to that. This is just an example of a problem most casters probably dont think about, since they arent affected from it.

What Mythic should do is to take a serious look over how things actually work for the different archetypes out there first. Sort issues that came with NF first and foremost. NF is ok, but not more, since its heavily restricted for pretty much any tankclass. When we can look at NF and say, YEA! we can all do something, then I think its time to maybe look over classbalances again if its needed. TOA gave survivability to casters, but also gave ways for tanks to deal with casters damages. NF gave lots of fun for casters and archers, but here tanks are overlooked.

Im ranting but.. thats how i see it anyway. I dont want to be some godly overpowered tank, I just want to make a difference, in all situations.

 

[Tristessa]

Havent seen alot of casters carrying rams/trebs etc though. Thats one role for the tanks And Ive heard plenty saying how fun they find shooting attacking/defending hibs/mids can be Although I hate how you have to wait for the gauge to fill up again when u switch targets. Oh well

 

[Cylian]

Dear Diary,

today I took my little Spiritmaster (Darkness, 47, RR2l9) out for some RvR.
Enemies killed:

RR10 Paladin - grappled me :touch:
RR8 Infil - he got the jump
3 man stealth group (2 scouts, 1 infil all ~RR6)
Firewiz(RR4?) with his Cleric(RR5) buddy
several others

~15k RPs soloed today with a sub lvl50 that has barely any ToA gear, and a crappy player on top of that

but I guess Casters are working as intended

 

[Equendil]

Dear Diary,

today I took my little Spiritmaster (Darkness, 47, RR2l9) out for some RvR.
Enemies killed:

RR10 Paladin - grappled me :touch:
RR8 Infil - he got the jump
3 man stealth group (2 scouts, 1 infil all ~RR6)
Firewiz(RR4?) with his Cleric(RR5) buddy
several others

~15k RPs soloed today with a sub lvl50 that has barely any ToA gear, and a crappy player on top of that

but I guess Casters are working as intended

Dunno about casters, but I'm willing to bet your pet was intercepting a bit more than intended

 

[Cylian]

Dunno about casters, but I'm willing to bet your pet was intercepting a bit more than intended

against the infil, well, it ate the PA. otherwise, not really.
pally died by his own hand more or less, grapple against a caster isn't a good idea.
but with the ability to mezz and root and nuke there isn't much they can do once you get to cast.