Reduce Magic Damage...

[Frust]

Would be fun to double HP's on everyone and see what that did to RvR.

 

[Maleg]

Change Relic bonus to 5% damage 5% defense of some sort. The game is much more enjoyable when each realm holds their own Relics. 20% bonus is just too overpowered.

 

[Roadie]

While high damage classes got a lot bonuses from TOA, clerics, druids and healers didn't.
Casters got: 10% range, 10% resist pirce, 10% magic damage, 10% cast speed, ##% power pool,
and melee 10% melee damage, 10% style damage, 10% swing speed.
Healers got 25% healbonus, 10% cast speed, 10% range, ##% power pool.
Looks even to you?

Yes. Your forgetting buff bonus and spell duration which effect casters and healers only, also the fact that power is probably more important to healing classes than any other and toa also brought various ways of gaining mana through items and ML's.

But for me as druid, mage damage is far more worse then melee damage. Suddenly unexpected somebody is nuked to hell. While if that same person would be attacked by a light tank, you could see him comming, and be prepaired to heal that person / defend him with bg, root, mezz, fz,..

you can still see them comming and you can interupt with root mez and fz, i see your point but in reality tanks are harder to shut down than casters (unless youve got grapplespammers ofc, which as a hib i guess you have easyily available :z )

Sorc for example. Bolt range mezz...hmmm no Bard/Healer/Darkness Spec SM has a chance in mezzing them

Ok!

Most tanks dont even get the chance to get to casters due to stupid ranges on sorc mezz. Tanks just die before getting near them.

vs assisting casters when the tanks have no resist buffs (which normaly means no seers on the group ie so no heals either) yes they probably do. Your basicly just whining about Sorcs now though and thats a whole other issue with lots of reasons behind giving them the fluff they have converging to make them pretty powerfull.

 

[Ilum]

Change Relic bonus to 5% damage 5% defense of some sort. The game is much more enjoyable when each realm holds their own Relics. 20% bonus is just too overpowered.

indeed rvr was always worse for me the more relics albs had ~~

 

[Maeloch]

Well, halving damage would prolly quadruple the length of most fights. With the realm map etc it then comes down to whoever gets the least adds winning. If NF didn't screw fg fights, that would.

Would make casters pointless also, unless u reduce/get rid of interrupts, double their mana and make it regen like end or something.

Mael, 50th ment.

 

[Bloodaxe_Springskalle]

Aye remove relics (str and pow) as they're just stupidly unbalancing.. other than that tho, caster damage is fine imo.. if you do anything to reduce it you have to do something to stop every single little sneeze interupting casters too.. otherwise it'd be completely pointless playing casters again

Also puppet, is that 5% chance to fumble spells in addition to the chance to outright resist a spell? (which is already higher than 5% even for lvl50 spells)

spell fumble should be comparable to regular melee fumble rate, spec dependant in other words, and make relics give RP bonus instead of Power relic and XP bonus instead of Strength relic for example.
On paper relics as of today is excellent, but ingame it gets all wrong due to population imbalance making the "weaker realms" even weaker.
most casters do more than enough damage when relic status is neutral (every realm has their own) and gets insane in a way melee chars even with str relics can only dream of if power relics head their way.

Hib/pry has definetly shown that underpopulated realms can compete, but keep in mind that shrooms excel in keep defence and midgard would have a hard time defending keeps the same way with same numbers.
and it's not fun at all being under siege 24/7 every day cos hardly anything happens PvE cos every ablebodied has to defend our beloved relics.
if you consider how those few hibs defended the relics for so long, imagine how "easily" the albs can defend the relics when they can outnumber at all times plus keep up PvE activity.
so imo giving relics RvR/PvE reward bonuses instead of raw dmg output bonuses the game will get more enjoyable for every player in every realm regardless of that particular realms RvR success. (wich realm it is vary from server to server)

maybe not a better system, but at least fairer for everyone and reward based relics would be very worthwhile fighting to keep aswell

 

[willowywicca]

spell fumble should be comparable to regular melee fumble rate, spec dependant in other words, and make relics give RP bonus instead of Power relic and XP bonus instead of Strength relic for example.

Spell's outright resist rate is based on spell level, thus when using spec spells (as the majority of spells people use) your resist rate is affected by how high you've specced (or rather the highest spell you've specced for), however +magic specline doesn't decrease resist rates, while +melee specline does increase your ws and lower miss rates.. and melee fumble rate (excluding when dirty tricks is on you) is something like 0.00001%? Yesterday I had my lvl50 lifetap resisted 5(!) times when nuking a BM, people rarely notice when a caster's spell is resisted by them (since it's largely unnoticeable compared to when an actual effect/dmg hits you), but people who actually play casters notice it very much, and the rate is already quite high (even for lvl50 spells).. can get mof to raise spells to lvl50, but similarily, tanks can get aug str or dex to raise ws to lower their miss/fumble/evaded/parried/blocked rate, while having the side benefit of raising their damage too, mof does nothing to raise caster damage.

Anyway, either change how interupts are or else lowering caster damage will merely render them useless again.. as zebolt said, we'll end up spending our entire fights staffing enemies

 

[Puppet]

Spell's outright resist rate is based on spell level, thus when using spec spells (as the majority of spells people use) your resist rate is affected by how high you've specced (or rather the highest spell you've specced for), however +magic specline doesn't decrease resist rates, while +melee specline does increase your ws and lower miss rates..

IF you complaining about resist-rate on say level 45 spec-spells I suggest you go buy MoFocus 2 and make it a level 50 spell. Also casters can ONLY resist with melee having way more things; missed/parried/fumbled/blocked/evaded/guarded/intercepted/bodyguarded/bladeturned ....

and melee fumble rate (excluding when dirty tricks is on you) is something like 0.00001%?

Prolly more like 0.01% or so. But do include the first guaranteed miss due to BT, the guards and BG's etc etc. Wouldnt be surprised overall melee is 'resisted' (= by one of the things mentioned earlier) for over 20%

Yesterday I had my lvl50 lifetap resisted 5(!) times when nuking a BM,

Day before a paladin blocked 17 melee-swings of me :O

people rarely notice when a caster's spell is resisted by them (since it's largely unnoticeable compared to when an actual effect/dmg hits you), but people who actually play casters notice it very much, and the rate is already quite high (even for lvl50 spells).. can get mof to raise spells to lvl50, but similarily, tanks can get aug str or dex to raise ws to lower their miss/fumble/evaded/parried/blocked rate, while having the side benefit of raising their damage too, mof does nothing to raise caster damage.

What is 'alot of resists' 10% ? Like I said before its easy to reach 20% in typical RvR on melee I would guess.

Anyway, either change how interupts are or else lowering caster damage will merely render them useless again.. as zebolt said, we'll end up spending our entire fights staffing enemies

The fact 90% of all groups run a caster-setup shows casters rule the game at the moment. While melee did before; casters got thrown a bone with all the TOA-stuff introduced. Nowadays I would say melee needs a bone. However to avoid the unending spiral of more and more damage my suggestion was to lower it abit. I understand 'casters' in general dont like that idea; because its a nerf to them. But imo if you look fair to the game its somthing which is needed hard.

And to be honest: The 'nerf' im talking to is only 25% of a nerf compared to loosing your power-relics. If it means anything it shows how silly relics are and how you guys overreacting; most casters do fine without relics too

 

[willowywicca]

IF you complaining about resist-rate on say level 45 spec-spells I suggest you go buy MoFocus 2 and make it a level 50 spell. Also casters can ONLY resist with melee having way more things; missed/parried/fumbled/blocked/evaded/guarded/intercepted/bodyguarded/bladeturned ....

Prolly more like 0.01% or so. But do include the first guaranteed miss due to BT, the guards and BG's etc etc. Wouldnt be surprised overall melee is 'resisted' (= by one of the things mentioned earlier) for over 20%

What is 'alot of resists' 10% ? Like I said before its easy to reach 20% in typical RvR on melee I would guess.

Afaik the resist rate for standard DDs is 15% on lvl50 spells (mythic gave out the equation long ago, whether it is accurate or not I am unsure ), other kinds of spells apparently resist more (lifetaps, dd/snares etc, anything with double effects checks if either effect resists and if either does the whole spell is resisted.. apparently).

Day before a paladin blocked 17 melee-swings of me :O

And when that paladin reached you in melee, were you no longer able to attack him?

The fact 90% of all groups run a caster-setup shows casters rule the game at the moment. While melee did before; casters got thrown a bone with all the TOA-stuff introduced. Nowadays I would say melee needs a bone. However to avoid the unending spiral of more and more damage my suggestion was to lower it abit. I understand 'casters' in general dont like that idea; because its a nerf to them. But imo if you look fair to the game its somthing which is needed hard.

That is because of the keep oriented nature of NF, hibs run a lot of predominantly-melee oriented groups and they eat pure caster groups alive.. at present the best group set-up is not pure caster or pure melee tho, it is a mix of both.

And to be honest: The 'nerf' im talking to is only 25% of a nerf compared to loosing your power-relics. If it means anything it shows how silly relics are and how you guys overreacting; most casters do fine without relics too

I was under the impression everyone had already agreed that relics are totally imbalancing and need to be changed/removed.. I thought you suggested additional nerfs were in addition to a change to relics, without relics caster damage isn't all that insane, and doesn't warrant further nerfs without rendering casters pointless (well, in keep/tower defense where tanks can't reach them they'd be useful still ofc)... your nerf ideas are only for the realm who has relics then? the other two realms don't get them?

 

[Ilum]

Nothing wrong with Tank/Caster balance in terms of damage - but in my opinion both types generally do too much damage. Both a lighttank and a nuker can kill a caster in 2 rounds ~~

People don't even bother to assist anymore because it's so easy to kill before healers have time to react. This problem is very obvious when a realm has all relics. In good old 1.62-1.65 times you actually needed teamwork and assisting to kill stuff (atleast everyone but Savages). And blah blah assist is no skill yada yada heard this one before but funny how only a few people were good at it. If a healer was free, it was very hard for anyone to outdamage his healing solo. Now even if you have lightning fast reaction as a healer, you will still often be too late with your casted heals vs 1 little ToA'd twink.

 

[Foadon]

Nothing wrong with Tank/Caster balance in terms of damage - but in my opinion both types generally do too much damage. Both a lighttank and a nuker can kill a caster in 2 rounds ~~

pure tanks can prolly kill in 2 rounds aswell, at slower rate with 2h/pole/LW-CS
but mythic is le clueless, and if they would suddenly change whole dmgoutput concept they would be saying, we fucked up totally, so here is some fast patch for something that should have been fixed ages ago :d so they wont
we'll notice how long company will hold with all wowers cancelling subs

 

[Ilum]

pure tanks can prolly kill in 2 rounds aswell, at slower rate with 2h/pole/LW-CS
but mythic is le clueless, and if they would suddenly change whole dmgoutput concept they would be saying, we fucked up totally, so here is some fast patch for something that should have been fixed ages ago :d so they wont
we'll notice how long company will hold with all wowers cancelling subs

Well they could make it easier to make 200hits/100con template, that would be a middle way My theurg is RR5 and his damage is löls. Does 700+ vs ~~ 20% resists.

 

[Esselinithia]

Ehmm.. You know caster DPS got an about 30-35% dps-increase during TOA ? Resist-piercing (+10 %), cast-speed (+10%), magic-dmg (+10%), slightly higher acuity due to 'acuity cap' and slightly higher dexterity due to 'dexterity cap'.

Tanks get far better weapons and armors, better procs on weapons, their ML abilities gives them direct improvements (not only global effect wards, and summoned wood). They have good chances against stealthers (including archers). They can solo better in PVE. Should I continue? They have no real problems with power, and can get nice end regen in many ways. So they can't expect anything except casters having advantage in other things.

 

[Shike]

Nothing wrong with Tank/Caster balance in terms of damage - but in my opinion both types generally do too much damage. Both a lighttank and a nuker can kill a caster in 2 rounds ~~

People don't even bother to assist anymore because it's so easy to kill before healers have time to react. This problem is very obvious when a realm has all relics. In good old 1.62-1.65 times you actually needed teamwork and assisting to kill stuff (atleast everyone but Savages). And blah blah assist is no skill yada yada heard this one before but funny how only a few people were good at it. If a healer was free, it was very hard for anyone to outdamage his healing solo. Now even if you have lightning fast reaction as a healer, you will still often be too late with your casted heals vs 1 little ToA'd twink.

hmmm, dont know if i agree to 100% here. Now with Divine intervention ingame its actually incredibly hard to kill casters fast sometimes. HighRR midgrps with 3 healers pops DI's like crazy on us sometimes, means we have to dish out around 6-9k damage fast, it also buys time for healers to use instaheals and preheal It works for us but, it sometimes take time and normally healers will run oom eventually, a merc and reaver chaining positionals isnt funny to heal even if you are rr11, especially on a caster If its inexperienced unorganized enemys then casters drops like flies, normally 1 to 2 rounds. It aint funny to be in that casters shoes either

 

[Vilje]

Kinda like lvl 50 Play gound, i bet it would be very populair fast

Well, instanced RvR will help on that one i hope Will come with the patch after Catacombs ( which will arrive in europe sometime in march ). Will be more or less like a BG for lvl 50's imo Perhaps bring back 8vs8 for those who prefer that i guess.

Info can be found here: http://www.camelotherald.com/more/1860.shtml

 

[Puppet]

I was under the impression everyone had already agreed that relics are totally imbalancing and need to be changed/removed.. I thought you suggested additional nerfs were in addition to a change to relics, without relics caster damage isn't all that insane, and doesn't warrant further nerfs without rendering casters pointless (well, in keep/tower defense where tanks can't reach them they'd be useful still ofc)... your nerf ideas are only for the realm who has relics then? the other two realms don't get them?

Was only referring that a 5% nerf to your damage would equal 25% of the bonus u gain with relics ---> in other words: If they stealth-nerfed it I bet you wouldnt even notice it.

Remember how long it took to NOTICE that sorc/caba lifetap was hitting 5~ % harder then other DD's with same delve?

But in the end; like I said before: we will never agree to this: you think caster-damage is fine; I think its too high. There is no 'truth' in this; its all about what you and me 'think' and how we think the game 'should' be to max our own gaming-experience

 

[raid]

I'd also say damage is too high only with relics... and even with 20%relic bonus my theurgist nukes do only 400ish damage on 50% resist grps.

Playing without resists & resistbuffs and whining about caster damage is like using af 80 armor without melee resists and whining about tank damage.

 

[Saggy]

I'd also say damage is too high only with relics... and even with 20%relic bonus my theurgist nukes do only 400ish damage on 50% resist grps.

Playing without resists & resistbuffs and whining about caster damage is like using af 80 armor without melee resists and whining about tank damage.

26%(items)+24%(buffs)+5%(racial)=55%, 30%(debuff, essential to any semi-balanced caster groups)+10%(piercing)=40% -> 15%+RAs to fight against, 0%+RAs with 50% debuff (like I said in my first post I have neve bothered testing does resists go belove 0% and are resists from RAs debuffable). Caster damage without debuff should be far worse than its now, imo

 

[Eva]

26%(items)+24%(buffs)+5%(racial)=55%, 30%(debuff, essential to any semi-balanced caster groups)+10%(piercing)=40% -> 15%+RAs to fight against, 0%+RAs with 50% debuff (like I said in my first post I have neve bothered testing does resists go belove 0% and are resists from RAs debuffable). Caster damage without debuff should be far worse than its now, imo

Casters shouldn't rely on a debuff to be able to do damage.

 

[Saggy]

Casters shouldn't rely on a debuff to be able to do damage.

Works in both ways - no one shouldn't rely on resist buffs to be able to handle 4 nukes.

 

[Eva]

Works in both ways - no one shouldn't rely on resist buffs to be able to handle 4 nukes.

With the cast speed after toa yes, before toa no. Casters shouldn't be able to drop someone in 2 - 3 seconds alone(pbae is an exception since it doesn't have a range).

 

[Saggy]

With the cast speed after toa yes, before toa no. Casters shouldn't be able to drop someone in 2 - 3 seconds alone(pbae is an exception since it doesn't have a range).

Talking about the current situation ofc

 

[Eva]

Talking about the current situation ofc

Aye, have no idea why I said before toa. Casters are very silly as it is now you can't leave them uninterupted or they'll kill your group in seconds without a decent healer. Can't say that tanks are bad either though, they just hit slower. :l

 

[Saggy]

Aye, have no idea why I said before toa. Casters are very silly as it is now you can't leave them uninterupted or they'll kill your group in seconds without a decent healer. Can't say that tanks are bad either though, they just hit slower. :l

The day I find tanks damage a threat I will start using BG/Grapple-bot in group - now its just mainly the spells tanks have access to making them viable in groups (group based on melee damage is way too easily killable with the current tools).

 

[Eva]

The day I find tanks damage a threat I will start using BG/Grapple-bot in group - now its just mainly the spells tanks have access to making them viable in groups (group based on melee damage is way too easily killable with the current tools).

Dunno how the situation is on prydwen atm, but for me tanks will always be a threat. Casters are a bigger threat of course, but if you got 2 good assisting tanks on your (atleast 1 of the light tank) casters they are dead in a matter of seconds.

 

[Saggy]

Dunno how the situation is on prydwen atm, but for me tanks will always be a threat. Casters are a bigger threat of course, but if you got 2 good assisting tanks on your (atleast 1 of the light tank) casters they are dead in a matter of seconds.

Like I said, the day I counter that sort of group I'll have BG/Grapple-bot removing that threat Usually I only see 1 tank per group (at max) mainly because of BL-line. Never lost a single fight against group based on melee damage in ToA.

 

[Eva]

Like I said, the day I counter that sort of group I'll have BG/Grapple-bot removing that threat Usually I only see 1 tank per group (at max) mainly because of BL-line. Never lost a single fight against group based on melee damage in ToA.

Hehe yeah, we usually run bm + bm/champ/hero on avalon which does wonders. Two bls in a group is nice and they kill fast. And since toa came 2 casters are enough for pbing. We meet more than 1fg at once usually though so 1 light eld could be nice for nearsight. But pre toa Nocturne ran with 1pb and 1 light eld, worked nice. Was only because the 20% pierce 9% damage eld was 3 shotting everything though.

Edit: Which brings us back to the casters are op. But atleast piercing is fixed.

 

[Equendil]

Debuffs work the following way, first they benefit from being spec spells, so it's 125% of delve, the 50% debuff really is 62% and the 30% debuff is 37%. Debuffs were nerfed a while ago, and are halved in value against resists apart from resist buffs, and it's still possible to debuff below 0%.

For instance, someone with 26% item resists will be debuffed down to -5% with the 50% debuff as it's halved (so 62% / 2 = 31%). If that same person had 24% resist buff, then 24% of the 62% would debuff that, leaving 38% which is halved, so 19%, and that person would end up at 7% resists. 10% resist pierce and that person would end up at -3% in that case (AFAIK).

Confusing ?

Another thing worth considering is that the self debuffs (for instance, body for albion) only last 8 seconds before resists, so like 5s on a group with resist buffs up.

 

[Sarumancer]

ps, shield swipe will drop -all- brittles in a frontal arc area.

just saying, ya know

 

[Shike]

Debuffs work the following way, first they benefit from being spec spells, so it's 125% of delve, the 50% debuff really is 62% and the 30% debuff is 37%. Debuffs were nerfed a while ago, and are halved in value against resists apart from resist buffs, and it's still possible to debuff below 0%.

For instance, someone with 26% item resists will be debuffed down to -5% with the 50% debuff as it's halved (so 62% / 2 = 31%). If that same person had 24% resist buff, then 24% of the 62% would debuff that, leaving 38% which is halved, so 19%, and that person would end up at 7% resists. 10% resist pierce and that person would end up at -3% in that case (AFAIK).

Confusing ?

Another thing worth considering is that the self debuffs (for instance, body for albion) only last 8 seconds before resists, so like 5s on a group with resist buffs up.

hmm afaik you cannot debuff someone below 0% resist anymore. Dont know if that still apply to %piercing but I assume 0% is 0%