Realm inbalance?

Jareth Spellfire

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Does one realm having more/different classes then the other have any effect on that realm's utility/effectiveness? I think so, see beneath

Albion:
Fighter classes:
Armsman, Mercenary,Paladin,Reaver
Rogue classes:
Minstrel, Infiltrator, Scout
Wizard classes:
Theurgist, Wizard, Necromancer, Sorceror, Cabalist
Healing classes:
Friar, Cleric

Total of 14 classes

Hibernia:
Fighter classes:
Blademaster, Champion, Hero, Valewalker
Rogue classes:
Nightshade, Ranger
Wizard classes:
Eldritch, Enchanter, Animist, Mentalist
Healing classes:
Druid, Warden, Bard

Total of 13 classes

Midgard:
Fighter classes:
Skald, Savage, Warrior, Berserker, Thane
Rogue classes:
Shadowblade, Hunter
Wizard classes:
Bonedancer, Runemaster, Spiritmaster
Healing classes:
Shaman, Healer

Total of 12 classes


The way i see it GOA/Mythic. You owe hibernia another class and midgard two ? Or do you have a logical explaination for it? Balance is the key and i see more and more of my realmmates quitting because of the nerfs and hibernia on our server remains underpopulated (they do a fine job in rvr though i must say)

I wonder if this is about the classic Camelot versus the rest of the world thing? i.e. Albion: Good so must always win / Hibernia: Neutral so might win occasionally / Midgard: Evil so if possible make them lose? Explain please because i really do not understand :)

p.s. ofcourse there are a lot more imbalances in this game tilted towards albion, do not even get me started on that please :p
 

Eroa

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:eek7: you havent noticed the difference in numbers of classes untill now?
 

Naetha

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You've kinda got the wrong end of the stick - because Albion has more classes means that there are more classes that are left out and neglected. It takes more classes (therefore more characters) to make a viable RvR group. When was the last time you saw a cabalist/necro/earth wizard in standard open RvR? When was the last time you saw more than one hybrid tank or non-fotm caster in an RvR group? In Midgard (especially) and to some extent Hibernia you see a lot of classes that have more than one viable spec (pac/mend/aug on a healer, or cave/aug on a shammy for example) while you find many Alb classes can ONLY spec one viable way (smite cleric anyone?).

This subject has been ruminated a hundred times, but to make the foundations of a viable RvR group, you need speed, heals, CC, buffs and end-regen.

Midgard: Healer (1 minimum, 2 optimal), shammy, skald - make 3/4 with tanks/casters. (also gets power regen, haste, damage add, disease and DoTs)

Hibernia: Druid (1 minimum, 2 optimal), bard - make up 5/6 with tanks/casters, with a high likelihood of having 6 sec pbt on a backup healer.

Albion: Cleric (2 minimum) paladin, minstrel, sorceror - make up 3 with casters/tanks. (also get paladin chants and minstrel ablative, power regen on a 10 minute timer)

Now please realise that having more classes available doesn't make Alb a stronger realm, it has much more the opposite effect.

Really annoys me when you get people who've only played one realm whining about how they're so gimped/nerfed/unloved by Mythic. Level up a class in another realm (by which I DON'T mean a deathsight necro) and try it from the other side.
 

Jareth Spellfire

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I think that enough people have tried midgard and moved albion after that and the other way around. Im looking for opinions also here especially from those people.

Dont forget, by making the groups you just mentioned, you have more utility in that group then any other groups. Especiall when RA's are concerned :) And the problem about certain classes not being able to get groups is what every realm has to cope with because every realm has their own "best setup" or "fotm setup" as people call it.

Sorry my opinion stands mate :fluffle:
 

Jareth Spellfire

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I moved the thread to General discussions (Dark age of camelot general forum) so i dont have to answer 2 threads ;)
 

Amelyn

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First year of DAoC there was no problem with alb having more classes or mid having less. Cabalists/Thanes/Champions etc all got RvR groups cuz it was fairly balanced. The real problem begun with uber RAs, fotm setups SI and maybe now ToA.
Alot of classes still live in "old DAoC" and have no chance to compete against the new uber-twinked-from-start specs/classes/fotms blablablalba.
Take a look at the Mentalists "mentalism-spec" for example its sick to keep making new ubar itams and classes when some of the classes / speclines etc suck truckloads for RvR / PvE.

The most destroying thing ever implemented to DAoC is "Determination" making Thanes/Reavers/friars/champions/valewalkers etc next to useless, or at least thats what 90% of the community thinks.
All mages except pbae ones have huge problems getting goups today, if even at all.
Realm Abilities aren't very nicely balanced among the Realms.
etc etc etc
But instead of looking into the problems and sorting the errors already made, Mythic keep looking ahead with the $$$-stare and make new ones. :twak:

This is why myself, and I know other ppl aswell, won't buy ToA. It won't work having 70% of the games classes not being played

I could go on writing 1000 lines more but I have to work now or ill get fired :eek7:
 

Araudry

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Jareth Spellfire said:
I wonder if this is about the classic Camelot versus the rest of the world thing? i.e. Albion: Good so must always win / Hibernia: Neutral so might win occasionally / Midgard: Evil so if possible make them lose? Explain please because i really do not understand :)
:rolleyes:
 

Derric

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Jareth Spellfire said:
I think that enough people have tried midgard and moved albion after that and the other way around. Im looking for opinions also here especially from those people.

Dont forget, by making the groups you just mentioned, you have more utility in that group then any other groups. Especiall when RA's are concerned :) And the problem about certain classes not being able to get groups is what every realm has to cope with because every realm has their own "best setup" or "fotm setup" as people call it.

Sorry my opinion stands mate :fluffle:
What more utility?
 

Derric

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Eroa said:
Its beeing able to wear a red tracksuit and do funky dance moves. Albs are clearly overpowerd!
You could do that too....but you don't have the guts to!! o0
 

nuky

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Naetha said:
Midgard: Healer (1 minimum, 2 optimal), shammy, skald - make 3/4 with tanks/casters. (also gets power regen, haste, damage add, disease and DoTs)

Hibernia: Druid (1 minimum, 2 optimal), bard - make up 5/6 with tanks/casters, with a high likelihood of having 6 sec pbt on a backup healer.

Albion: Cleric (2 minimum) paladin, minstrel, sorceror - make up 3 with casters/tanks. (also get paladin chants and minstrel ablative, power regen on a 10 minute timer)
QUOTE]

why exactly does mid only need 1 healer and alb needs 2 clerics?
 

Vae

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nuky said:
Naetha said:
Midgard: Healer (1 minimum, 2 optimal), shammy, skald - make 3/4 with tanks/casters. (also gets power regen, haste, damage add, disease and DoTs)

Hibernia: Druid (1 minimum, 2 optimal), bard - make up 5/6 with tanks/casters, with a high likelihood of having 6 sec pbt on a backup healer.

Albion: Cleric (2 minimum) paladin, minstrel, sorceror - make up 3 with casters/tanks. (also get paladin chants and minstrel ablative, power regen on a 10 minute timer)
why exactly does mid only need 1 healer and alb needs 2 clerics?
Because the Mid group also has a shammy. Now ok a shammy is worse than a healer or cleric but the point is there is still 2 classes that can heal in that group hence Alb group needs a min of 2 clerics for 2 healing classes.
 

nuky

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Vae said:
Because the Mid group also has a shammy. Now ok a shammy is worse than a healer or cleric but the point is there is still 2 classes that can heal in that group hence Alb group needs a min of 2 clerics for 2 healing classes.

lol have u ever seen / used the shaman mend line? NO ONE (i have ever met) spec it over 26, and that is bots. the top baseline heal will heal 160 - 330 = 1 swing from a merc will negate any heal, plus that one healer will either have to be high pac spec = crappy heals again, or will have to be high mend = crappy CC. we have it so much better ^^. not to mention u have 2 aoe mezzing classes there (sorc and mincer) so by ur logic we should be allowed to have 2 pac healers as the 'minimum? :p

ur arguement makes no sense

EDIT: oh and not to mention, a shaman can NOT buff his group any where near close to what he needs to. the new end due to whining has screwed them big time with the buff limit, so can we have 2 of those in a fg too please?
 

Ilum

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Having more classes is not an advantage. Group size is still limited to 8.
 

Brite

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Naetha said:
You've kinda got the wrong end of the stick - because Albion has more classes means that there are more classes that are left out and neglected. It takes more classes (therefore more characters) to make a viable RvR group. When was the last time you saw a cabalist/necro/earth wizard in standard open RvR? When was the last time you saw more than one hybrid tank or non-fotm caster in an RvR group? In Midgard (especially) and to some extent Hibernia you see a lot of classes that have more than one viable spec (pac/mend/aug on a healer, or cave/aug on a shammy for example) while you find many Alb classes can ONLY spec one viable way (smite cleric anyone?).

This subject has been ruminated a hundred times, but to make the foundations of a viable RvR group, you need speed, heals, CC, buffs and end-regen.

Midgard: Healer (1 minimum, 2 optimal), shammy, skald - make 3/4 with tanks/casters. (also gets power regen, haste, damage add, disease and DoTs)

Hibernia: Druid (1 minimum, 2 optimal), bard - make up 5/6 with tanks/casters, with a high likelihood of having 6 sec pbt on a backup healer.

Albion: Cleric (2 minimum) paladin, minstrel, sorceror - make up 3 with casters/tanks. (also get paladin chants and minstrel ablative, power regen on a 10 minute timer)

Now please realise that having more classes available doesn't make Alb a stronger realm, it has much more the opposite effect.

Really annoys me when you get people who've only played one realm whining about how they're so gimped/nerfed/unloved by Mythic. Level up a class in another realm (by which I DON'T mean a deathsight necro) and try it from the other side.
THATS NOT BAISED !

note the effort made to make alb look like gimp.... please
 

Naetha

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omfg I can't beleive this fucking forum has just deleted my reply AGAIN!

Gist of the matter: you need 2 buffers per RvR group regardless of healers present - alb's only RvR friendly buffing class is the cleric, while Hib RvR groups always have a druid and bard, and Mid RvR groups always have a shammy and healer.

As for utility, how does having space for fewer classes allow for greater utility??

And also the fact that utility counts for shit in RvR.

RAs - mid having crap RAs is a load of bull - PR means you have to kill however many people in the group +number of healers present, and hey, lets give ae insta root to the realm that already has ae insta stun and ae insta mezz :rolleyes:

Hibs have group purge, baod and other useful RAs, and Alb has BoF, SoS and a couple of others worth the RSPs.

I don't mean you any disrespect Jareth, but I would be more sympathetic to your point of view if you had played the other realms to some extent (you may have done, but I can only garner information about you from your signature), and if you weren't just echoing all the other midnerf alblove whines that have been going on for months.
 

Aenir

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Old.Ilum said:
Having more classes is not an advantage. Group size is still limited to 8.
Is it ? I thought albs had 24 spots in a group ?
 

Naetha

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Brite said:
THATS NOT BAISED !

note the effort made to make alb look like gimp.... please
If you read what I was referring to, you will have realised that I was countering points that Jareth was making about how uber Alb was :rolleyes:
I'd be a pretty poor arguer if I just disagreed with him out of hand and didn't validate my points.

And hey, you played Alb or Hib much?
 

Vae

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nuky said:
lol have u ever seen / used the shaman mend line? NO ONE (i have ever met) spec it over 26, and that is bots. the top baseline heal will heal 160 - 330 = 1 swing from a merc will negate any heal, plus that one healer will either have to be high pac spec = crappy heals again, or will have to be high mend = crappy CC. we have it so much better ^^. not to mention u have 2 aoe mezzing classes there (sorc and mincer) so by ur logic we should be allowed to have 2 pac healers as the 'minimum? :p

ur arguement makes no sense

EDIT: oh and not to mention, a shaman can NOT buff his group any where near close to what he needs to. the new end due to whining has screwed them big time with the buff limit, so can we have 2 of those in a fg too please?
I don't claim that my arguement is perfect but it does explain the reasoning behind the original post and also why 2 healers + shaman is considered optimal.

1 Healer + shaman > 1 Cleric
2 Clerics > Healer + Shaman
2 Healers + Shaman > 2 Clerics

The point is that you need 2 healing classes minimum and can't survive with just 1.
As for minstrel being aoe CC <laugh>
About the only time minis use this is in stealth zerg fights. In fg RvR it is pointless. It'll take longer to cast than it will mes enemies for. Minstrel is not CC in fg RvR anymore than a cleric is.

Oh and I feel the need for some savage whine :flame: You mention that 160-330 is the baseline shammy heal which is 1 swing from a merc. Well the cleric Spreadheal is 602 which is 1 swing (read triple or quad) from a savage :D
 

Vae

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Realistic Fotm groups listing the primary characteristics of each group and yes I will have forgotten some or got some wrong:

Hib: 2 Druids, Bard, Warden, 1 Hero, 3 BM's
= 6sec PBT, Insta ae mez, ae mez, speed, end, 2 primary healers, 2 backup healers, 2 pets, 1 blockbot, 3 damage dealers, 2 group purge, mana regen, haste?

Mid: 2 Mend healers, 1 Pac healer, 1 Shaman, 1 skald, 3 Savage
= Insta ae mez, ae mez, insta ae stun, 2 primary healers, 2 backup healers, pbaoe disease, Speed, 3 damage dealers, 3 PR, mana regen, end regen

Alb: 2 Clerics, 1 Mini, 1 Sorc, 1 Paladin, 3 Mercs
=Bolt range ae mez (on a cloth class), 2 primary healers, 2 BoF, speed, SOS, 3 damage dealers, end regen (mezzable), blockbot (mezzable), mana regen


I'm ignoring buffs since most groups have bot support anyway.

To me the only thing the alb group has going for it is the RA's. If it wasn't for savages the Hib group would be easily best.
 

nuky

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Vae said:
I don't claim that my arguement is perfect but it does explain the reasoning behind the original post and also why 2 healers + shaman is considered optimal.

1 Healer + shaman > 1 Cleric
2 Clerics > Healer + Shaman
2 Healers + Shaman > 2 Clerics

The point is that you need 2 healing classes minimum and can't survive with just 1.
As for minstrel being aoe CC <laugh>
About the only time minis use this is in stealth zerg fights. In fg RvR it is pointless. It'll take longer to cast than it will mes enemies for. Minstrel is not CC in fg RvR anymore than a cleric is.

Oh and I feel the need for some savage whine :flame: You mention that 160-330 is the baseline shammy heal which is 1 swing from a merc. Well the cleric Spreadheal is 602 which is 1 swing (read triple or quad) from a savage :D
i see arguing with u is pointless, u laugh at mincers aoe CC, i laugh at u comparing a shammy to a cleric. i have been aoe mezed by them plenty of time in fg v fg. infact didnt fadeh brag a little while back that him playing his mincer took out a fg of mids/hibs with only a infil partner? (maybe not optimised fg but thats still very lol). fact of the matter is their aoe mez is useful if the sorc is gettin tailed and enemy support is still free. this arguement could go on forever, both have advantages, i just think ur comparisons r rediculous a su obviously think mine are, fair enough.

i have never said savages were anything but overpowered, seems ur turning to that once u get proven wrong, just as most albs do. i just wonder what will be the next whine from u lot when the savage nerf hits, then theres not a thing in mid that can be compared to the overpoweredness (?) of ur own realm.
 

nuky

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Vae said:
Realistic Fotm groups listing the primary characteristics of each group and yes I will have forgotten some or got some wrong:

Hib: 2 Druids, Bard, Warden, 1 Hero, 3 BM's
= 6sec PBT, Insta ae mez, ae mez, speed, end, 2 primary healers, 2 backup healers, 2 pets, 1 blockbot, 3 damage dealers, 2 group purge, mana regen, haste?

Mid: 2 Mend healers, 1 Pac healer, 1 Shaman, 1 skald, 3 Savage
= Insta ae mez, ae mez, insta ae stun, 2 primary healers, 2 backup healers, pbaoe disease, Speed, 3 damage dealers, 3 PR, mana regen, end regen

Alb: 2 Clerics, 1 Mini, 1 Sorc, 1 Paladin, 3 Mercs
=Bolt range ae mez (on a cloth class), 2 primary healers, 2 BoF, speed, SOS, 3 damage dealers, end regen (mezzable), blockbot (mezzable), mana regen


I'm ignoring buffs since most groups have bot support anyway.

To me the only thing the alb group has going for it is the RA's. If it wasn't for savages the Hib group would be easily best.
what does mid have going for it? ur own realm mates agreed in other thread that sorc is the best mezzer ingame and that insta CC on the pac healer is close to useless on high det classes. guess theres the answer to my last question, it will be pbaoe disease the wajn will be about ^^.

try being a shaman have to rebuff 8 people with end after the assist train has trampled over ye, we cant just hit a chant ^^
 

Vae

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Very powerful (called by some overpowered) things in Albion:
Dragonfang: Only on Infs IF you are attacking the assassin so this mostly features in 1v1 and primarily stealther v stealther combat. DF does nothing vs support who aren't fighting. The fact it is 9 seconds is powerful but given Hibs have a 7 second stun NOT off evade then it can't receive much of a nerf without becoming worse than hibs stun.

BoF: A very nice RA
SOS: Another very nice RA
VP: (This is a maybe and only until the nerf anyway).

Um that's it...

Hib:
Chanters
Group Purge
Baod

Mids:
Insta ae stun
PR
Savages

These are the main areas but there are limitless comparisons you could make e.g. Wizards < SM's< Chanters (not counterbalanced at all), Clerics < Druids < Healers (counterbalanced by the RA's)
 

Naetha

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omg - lol, seriously guys, if Alb is so damned overpowered, how come the Mid level 50s (which form 31% of the level 50 playerbase) made 33% of last week's realm points, as opposed to Alb where 41% of the level 50 players on the server made 34% of last week's realm points?

I hate to repeat myself but don't harp on and on and on and on and on about the so-called Alb love and uberness unless you've played Alb in RvR.

I thought Mid was really overpowered in RvR, so I went to Mid and I levelled up a character, and I have been RvRing, and talked to people who RvR a lot. From this I have decided that general Mids > general Hibs > general Albs - obviously there's many more variables such as what RAs are up, who gets the jump on who, who's running a random pick-up group and who's running a fotm buffbotted group etc etc etc.

Now until you have a decent argument to back yourself up, please stop whining!
 

Sycho

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This is my view having played all 3 at 50 in rvr:

Midgard:

Best support classes maybe, though the realm itself is in a bad state though it has a few very powerful classes compared to other realms equivalent resulting in making midgard itself become a realm that doesn't use half of it's classes in rvr as often as it should.The realm can produce the best tank group in the game however as stated the other classes in the realm aren't really that great compared to alb/hib.

Hibernia:

This realm had a nice amount of good classes in rvr but the least effective tank group in daoc.Though this realm does have the best mage group by far in my view(we haven't seen 1.65 yet but i reckon it still could be) if played good, this realm in my view seemed the most balanced classwise in it's own realm(i DO NOT mean compared to mid/alb i mean compared to each other of the realm, this realm has more types of groups you can make and do good)

Albion:

Very good realm if you have bof+sos you can do very well, without it's not too special.Has few good casters and few decent tanks, other classes are like mid, average.Again a realm that gets hurt when other classes are more powerful than others in rvr( other classes in their own realm).


There, that's my views, disagree or whatever, that's from playing experience and my opinions.Mid and alb has some classes that need boosts though hib seems to have the best set of classes, the ra's in the game makes this not to be seen from an alb or mid point of view very often.
 

Naetha

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Fattshanes may be a gimp and all, but he does know his stuff, and he's probably about as unbiased as you can get.

(I'm allowed to be as biased as I want as I'm in a foul mood and have a dissertation to write...)
 

Sycho

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Pfft stop calling me fat even though i am not, aye 6s anytime stun will be gimped xD with 410 str in toa keke xD
 

Vae

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nuky said:
what does mid have going for it? ur own realm mates agreed in other thread that sorc is the best mezzer ingame and that insta CC on the pac healer is close to useless on high det classes. guess theres the answer to my last question, it will be pbaoe disease the wajn will be about ^^.

try being a shaman have to rebuff 8 people with end after the assist train has trampled over ye, we cant just hit a chant ^^
If you want a direct comparison Mid fotm to Alb fotm:

3 Savages + skald > 3 Mercs (+pally if not blockbot)
Conc End regen > Chant end regen
Disease > No disease
3 PR < 2 Bof + 1 Sos
In open: Healer insta mes < Sorc bolt range mes
Over hills etc: Healer Insta mes > Sorc bolt range mes
2 Mend healers CC > Mini CC (Not sure on this but I would guess)
2 primary healers + 2 backup healer > 2 primary healers
2 primary res + 2 backup/gimp res > 2 primary res + 1 gimp res
Mach 5 = Mach 5 (although mids are better off since end regen doesn't drain mana)
Mana regen Mid = Mana regen Alb
No Blockbot < Pala blockbot
Pac healer armour > sorc armour
Insta ae stun > no insta ae stun
No Ablative < Ablative

That covers most things. I would say if RA's are up then (post savage nerf) Albs>Mids and if RA's down then Mids>Albs. Pre savage nerf Mids>Albs
 

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