Possible 8v8 setups on Origins?

[Cadelin]

Banelord Heretic, better RA selection than Theurg, better Artifact selection than Theurg, more survivability, base line buffs, base heals and so on.

Pre tendrils nerf with Purge 3 it was just a joke: run into a group, get stunned, purge and interrupt them all.

Worked as good as a Theurg against shit groups.

Thanks for proving my point. All those classes/abilities will be removed so its seems reasonable to also remove Theurgs.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Thanks for proving my point. All those classes/abilities will be removed so its seems reasonable to also remove Theurgs.

A Heretic was killable by LWs easily, it's just a lot didn't want to adapt. If Originis offers LWs I wouldn't see a need to remove Heretics.

The majority didn't want to adapt to a Theurg in a group and prefered to whine about the class to get it nerfed while the good opted groups still were beating Albs groups regardless of 1-2 or two good Theurgs.

Theurg is a strong class, but not overpowered in a group as there are ways to stop a Theurg. If it wouldn't be the case, Alb groups with a Theurg would auto-win.

I agree that a hard pushing group with a Theurg, regardless of if with tanks or casters mainly was a nightmare to fight, but so was a Valk/Thane/BD/Healer/Shaman-based group.

Now you could say that the Valk gets tuned down and the BD removed, and if a Theurg would stay in, it would be too hard against Theurgs, I agree on paper but would like to see how casters perform overall first in Orginis before final say on if the Theurg class removal is justified or not.

 

[old.windforce]

any news on what alb class is going to get pbt?

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

A Heretic was killable by LWs easily, it's just a lot didn't want to adapt. If Originis offers LWs I wouldn't see a need to remove Heretics.

The majority didn't want to adapt to a Theurg in a group and prefered to whine about the class to get it nerfed while the good opted groups still were beating Albs groups regardless of 1-2 or two good Theurgs.

Theurg is a strong class, but not overpowered in a group as there are ways to stop a Theurg. If it wouldn't be the case, Alb groups with a Theurg would auto-win.

I agree that a hard pushing group with a Theurg, regardless of if with tanks or casters mainly was a nightmare to fight, but so was a Valk/Thane/BD/Healer/Shaman-based group.

Now you could say that the Valk gets tuned down and the BD removed, and if a Theurg would stay in, it would be too hard against Theurgs, I agree on paper but would like to see how casters perform overall first in Orginis before final say on if the Theurg class removal is justified or not.

Yah I agree with you Manisch, the Theug is a strong class, in an alb group and a good theug will make fights interesting and equal imo. I fought Albion set groups who ran 2x theugs on US servers on many occasions. I ran as MA and driver in a Albion 2x sorc, caba, theugh, hybrid paladin, armsman, 2x cleric group and did well with it.

But at the same time both hib and mid have the power to deal with theug pet spam through pbaoeing them/aoe them. Hib can box with eld+ench and rid all pets while they kite and re-engage the albion grp with spd6 again.

Mid can do the same really with SM + RM, Sm specced for gellow cold debuffs using its lifetap and still get a blue pbaoe, or even a gellow I don't recall the fotm specs used on Mid boss atm.

I mean if we put it like this, who in this thread will play albion cus they think they will be able to make rox box 8 mans without theug?

Perhaps mythic can be flexible enough to implement the theug if they notice alb is struggling.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

pre si... mids and hibs whine they want a pet spam class like theurg for rvr but for pve as well...
what did they get? bonedancer and animist
bonedancer pre-toa, average soloer in rvr, no grps... in pve ... lol , post toa uber rvr , average pve with ml9 pet
animist uber pve and uber keep defence until nerf , after that ani has just spike dam in rvr

anyway albs are much better casterwise than mids even without theurg, sorc + wizzy + caba >>> rm + sm.

BDs was kinda nice in 8v8 in SI/OF times aswell imo. I remember Maelstrom pwning with their BDs, Bananplockaren and that Sonja or whatever she was called, kobold bd, had a warrior kobold also with legendary guard skills ...

 

[Cadelin]

Now you could say that the Valk gets tuned down and the BD removed, and if a Theurg would stay in, it would be too hard against Theurgs, I agree on paper but would like to see how casters perform overall first in Orginis before final say on if the Theurg class removal is justified or not.

Legendary weapons are ToA only so won't be in. (They aren't in classic either AFAIK)

If casters in general are underpowered you would suggest that rather than improve casters as a whole you would rather just add a class to alb only? If all the opted groups across all realms are running pure tank setups it saying that casters in general need a boost and you won't fix that by adding one class to one realm.

Mythic are doing exactly the same as what they are doing for WAR. An equal number of classes, with equal abilities overall. That is how they aim to achieve balance.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Legendary weapons are ToA only so won't be in. (They aren't in classic either AFAIK)

If casters in general are underpowered you would suggest that rather than improve casters as a whole you would rather just add a class to alb only? If all the opted groups across all realms are running pure tank setups it saying that casters in general need a boost and you won't fix that by adding one class to one realm.

Mythic are doing exactly the same as what they are doing for WAR. An equal number of classes, with equal abilities overall. That is how they aim to achieve balance.

Casters ain't underpowered per say, not at all. On ToA servers they are OP'ed due to having so much defensive abilities.

The thing is that "casters" are the ones who do the CC, the Rupt, and are basically the kite engines.

All 3 realms have diffrent classes who can contribute to this. Some have abit more roles to fill then others, wich makes it problematic in an equal fight where you need to do you primary job and then some. When playing cleric in a full caster setup ( rr9 ) I often had to use my bolt range shears to interrupt, so did the other cleric, and heal, re position, cure ns, cure disease, kite, stunn enemy support to halt their push and so on.

I mean you do the rupt and the kite in diffrent layers so to speak, a theug makes the group so much better since he will be focused on so much, he cannot be allowed to cast, and most often he will be running for his life, but as soon as he gets his window he can put up 3-5 pets who will turn the battle since they have to focus on the pets. This frees up the cc sorc, the body sorc and the caba to do their thing. Now you have the enemy group on the defence dealing with the pets, so your offensive tanks can go after their key classes while you can push. This goes back and forth in waves, and the one who execute their "turn" the best will get the upper hand.

Remove the theug and you tilt that balance in the way you attack and defend as an albion group, if your used to a theug.

Thats how I see it though, not that x caster is underpowered and that sorc needs to do more dmg or have longer range or cast faster. It is more a question of who will do what in the albion group. The main caster dps comes from 2x sorc and a caba deuffing them and assisting on the body sorc. If you can stop that, and at the same time juggle their tanks ( debuffs, shears, roots, mezz, your own tanks snaring them ) you will establish control and you can make your move while the albion group are sitting ducks basically. Now if there is no theug, you have no source of relayable interrupts that will free up your cc sorc body sorc and caba to do dps, lay disease and ns and push.

Ah well I guess time will tell, I'm looking forward to it atleast

 

[Cadelin]

Casters ain't underpowered per say, not at all. On ToA servers they are OP'ed due to having so much defensive abilities.

Its not a ToA server its origins.

 

[Gahn]

Its not a ToA server its origins.

You missed his point -.-

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Mythic are doing exactly the same as what they are doing for WAR. An equal number of classes, with equal abilities overall. That is how they aim to achieve balance.

Yes, that's the only way to balance stuff out. I had some discussion with someone in the FH AoC forum trying to say that balance through differences can be achieved, an utopic approach.

 

[Cadelin]

You missed his point -.-

What was his point then?

 

[Gahn]

What was his point then?

That Toa casters are Oped; doesn't mean that pre Toa casters were underpowered or sub par.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

That Toa casters are Oped; doesn't mean that pre Toa casters were underpowered or sub par.

Spot on.

 

[Cadelin]

That Toa casters are Oped; doesn't mean that pre Toa casters were underpowered or sub par.

So his point was completely irrelevant and there was nothing to miss.

 

[partyanimal]

perfect balance groupwise in daoc can be found in camlann
if you find 45 classes to choose from, difficult, try aoc or wow

sneakers, i am very interested in you describing what mids or hibs have to do to run a caster grp like you just posted about albs.
they both could use a theurgist you know

enough with casters.
we shouldn't forget about the tanks...
armsman can do a lot more dam than warrior ( can't tell about 1.91 yet )
zerker after the la nerf can out damage merc only when in vendo mode ( merc can anytime slam too)
paladin is much better in grps than a thane ( ragnaroc nerf will lower their dam a lot)
valk can be a very good interuptor, but their dam will be nerfed after 1.91

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

armsman can do a lot more dam than warrior ( can't tell about 1.91 yet )

In a one on one comparison a hybrid specced Armsman (50 Pole, 39 weapon, 42 shield) with high defensive passives will kill a Warrior after like 10 minutes, that's considering that both are over RR6 and the Armsman does most of the damage during slams.

Don't forget that Warriors will wield Hammers while Hybrid Armsmen gimp themself in 1H-mode if they do not go slash.

Without slamming & Defender's Rage an Armsman will always lose to a Warrior, unless the Warrior is seriously gimped is a.

From group perspective it fuck all matters, Armsman would have to be close to a Paladin all the time to more damage than a Warrior does with Aug Healer celerity.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

perfect balance groupwise in daoc can be found in camlann
if you find 45 classes to choose from, difficult, try aoc or wow

sneakers, i am very interested in you describing what mids or hibs have to do to run a caster grp like you just posted about albs.
they both could use a theurgist you know

Not sure what you mean here mate. On a PvP server?

I'd run

1x bard - cc, rupts, spd, af buff
1x Body sorc - rape dmg, debuff, when needed aoe mezz interrupt spam + amensia, blue pet?
1x Cabalist, tri spec - ns, disease, body debuff, single stat debuff, pet
1x Druid - resis, roots, aoe dot vs box, pet, spec buffs,
1x Auger - celerity, haste, resis, 36 pac so will have aoe gellow mezz
1x Armsman - high dmg, high surv, have slam
1x Armsman - same as above
1x Theug - rape interrupts, aoe root, roots, decent dps on runners

Would be a nice setup. It is alot of albion classes, caster as you see. It works so good b/c the other classes have the right skills on the right classe so to speak. You don't even need the bard to play endo since armsmen can live on blue endo + lw1 and end pots, they still get celerity from the auger.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

So his point was completely irrelevant and there was nothing to miss.

Well not really. You brought up the thing about casters in alb beeing so inferior that they needed a theug to do the job, that wasnät the point really.

But more that the group dynamic is diffrent in albion and doesn't let the other casters do their thing without the theug ( obviously they still do stuff, but it is so much harder to find that window of oportunity when you meet a split assist grp makig you constantly move and try to kite ).

 

[Valgyr]

Not sure what you mean here mate. On a PvP server?

I'd run

1x bard - cc, rupts, spd, af buff
1x Body sorc - rape dmg, debuff, when needed aoe mezz interrupt spam + amensia, blue pet?
1x Cabalist, tri spec - ns, disease, body debuff, single stat debuff, pet
1x Druid - resis, roots, aoe dot vs box, pet, spec buffs,
1x Auger - celerity, haste, resis, 36 pac so will have aoe gellow mezz
1x Armsman - high dmg, high surv, have slam
1x Armsman - same as above
1x Theug - rape interrupts, aoe root, roots, decent dps on runners

Would be a nice setup. It is alot of albion classes, caster as you see. It works so good b/c the other classes have the right skills on the right classe so to speak. You don't even need the bard to play endo since armsmen can live on blue endo + lw1 and end pots, they still get celerity from the auger.

PvP server setup that was rly good was:

Merc/BM/Zerk
Champ/reaver/valk
Pally for BG and endurance(can prolly swap to a heavy tank these days)
Cabby
Bain
Sorc
Cleric
Druid

Sick dps all buffs solid interupts

 

[Minidk]

Pvp setup is piss easy


just get a few body nukers whit a BD specced for the last body debuff!

insta body debuff is <3

 

[Gahn]

So his point was completely irrelevant and there was nothing to miss.

You keep bashing him cause of no Toa classes and so on, this isn't the point.
Anyway who gives a fuck.

 

[Tuorin]

PvP server setup that was rly good was:

Merc/BM/Zerk
Champ/reaver/valk
Pally for BG and endurance(can prolly swap to a heavy tank these days)
Cabby
Bain
Sorc
Cleric
Druid

Sick dps all buffs solid interupts

Like that group! Especially the body debuff. Lose the pally, lose speed 5 tho.

 

[Cadelin]

Well not really. You brought up the thing about casters in alb beeing so inferior that they needed a theug to do the job, that wasnät the point really.

But more that the group dynamic is diffrent in albion and doesn't let the other casters do their thing without the theug ( obviously they still do stuff, but it is so much harder to find that window of oportunity when you meet a split assist grp makig you constantly move and try to kite ).

I never said that alb casters were inferior and that they needed a Theurg. You are the person saying albs need a Theurg and you are trying to justify it by using examples that will not be relevant on Origins.

You are still yet to point out what is so different between alb casters and hib/mid casters? They will encounter exactly the same problems as alb caster encounter on Origins.

 

[Chimaira]

I never said that alb casters were inferior and that they needed a Theurg. You are the person saying albs need a Theurg and you are trying to justify it by using examples that will not be relevant on Origins.

You are still yet to point out what is so different between alb casters and hib/mid casters? They will encounter exactly the same problems as alb caster encounter on Origins.

Was or will it ever be a game that will never ever stop the endless discussion regarding inbalance except daoc?.

 

[partyanimal]

interesting posts about camlann setup
but i was asking for a potential mid / hib (thats easier) caster grp in origins
does any grp of these come close to alb ones?

Was or will it ever be a game that will never ever stop the endless discussion regarding inbalance except daoc?.

aoc , no realms 12(?) classes available to all, even races available to all

wow, 2 sides 9 classes to both of them, mere details in races

and yes in DAOC you can have perfect balance in Camlann, but not in normal classic servers

the the discussion is about balancing the realms on a brand NEW server

there are many many details unrevealed, but many ppl think that albs would struggle without theurg and mids will better off with valk

current status quo shows that alb casters in origins server are far superior to mid ones

sorc >>> sm in utility
wizzy > rm in damage
caba > sm damage + pet

wanna add theurgist with 16 pets?
a popular setup : 2 sorcs + 2 pets, 2 cabas + 2 pets, minstrel + 1 pet, theurg with 16 pets?
all alb casters have at least 1 bolt range spell to interrupt
valk has inst 1500 range and 700 aoe insta / pulse
shaman has 1 crap bolt
runemaster has to interrupt ns 2 sorcs, when 2 cabas hav to ns 1 healer

what kind of mid grp can beat that at low rr and how hard it has to push?

 

[Valgyr]

Well i cant rly say how it works on origin but on normal servers a good mid grp normaly beat the good alb hybrid grp, atleast till aes dana came up with a new uber interupt setup. we struggled like mad vs ikeas/GaLs 2 BD setup, never found a good way around it, if we went for pet/BD first just qc a new one and 1 perma out of our grp. and thuerg petting is a bit overrated imo, spend 20 sec petting up spend 1 sec with a qc pb/aoe nuke to clear em.

But on origins there will be no BDs, but when i played in the TT tank grp only grp setups that were pure better then us was GaLs hybrid grp cause vamp+BM just killed our BGer then support, and Allexiel grp with such a good control of our tanks with snares. so i guess a good alb grp with strong snares will survive once they have some basic RAs and win at higher rank given they have equal players, altho its not a give away in any case.

my 90342 c(long post)!

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

If casters in general are underpowered you would suggest that rather than improve casters as a whole you would rather just add a class to alb only?

If all the opted groups across all realms are running pure tank setups it saying that casters in general need a boost and you won't fix that by adding one class to one realm.

Here you clearly imply that casters are underpowered in albion since they "need" a theug. When I in all my posts said that Albion casters as whole are very potent, but the group dynamic of an albion group where you need a few more key classes to get base abils is diffrent from mid/hib, hence I think cutting the theug will create some problems for that group dynamic.

Think your grasping for straws here mate, trying to implicate me as the one saying alb casters suck, I never said that and I don't think they suck.

As you can see by my choice of an "origins" kind of PvP setup ( as i interperated partyanimals request, or whatever ), it has albions casters in it.



/edit,

Also Cadelin I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. Just b/c I state that in TOA where casters where quite OP'ed due to alot of new RAs and defensive skills from mls, dr and items it doesn't mean that just becuase some of that is taken away they become underpowered. That was my point.
Further on in the same post I use more examples, but I guess you don't bother to read what people actually say, in its full context but rather sit there spamming nonesense.

 

[Cadelin]

Here you clearly imply that casters are underpowered in albion since they "need" a theug. When I in all my posts said that Albion casters as whole are very potent, but the group dynamic of an albion group where you need a few more key classes to get base abils is diffrent from mid/hib, hence I think cutting the theug will create some problems for that group dynamic.

Think your grasping for straws here mate, trying to implicate me as the one saying alb casters suck, I never said that and I don't think they suck.

As you can see by my choice of an "origins" kind of PvP setup ( as i interperated partyanimals request, or whatever ), it has albions casters in it.



/edit,

Also Cadelin I think you need to work on your reading comprehension. Just b/c I state that in TOA where casters where quite OP'ed due to alot of new RAs and defensive skills from mls, dr and items it doesn't mean that just becuase some of that is taken away they become underpowered. That was my point.
Further on in the same post I use more examples, but I guess you don't bother to read what people actually say, in its full context but rather sit there spamming nonesense.

Please don't use personal insults when you are losing an argument.

I did not imply that albs need Theurgs it was a question to you. This was indicated by the use of a question mark at the end of the sentence, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension?

You have on mutliple occasions said that albs need Theurgs to compete. I will list them here for you:

Albion with no theug, I don't know how that will work at all, but still time for them to figure that out, wether they go ahead and leave theugs out.

Alb will struggle qq

Self owned once.

A sorc can't do cc, demezz, kite, pre kite, position and interrupt. No freakin way in todays DAoC.

I thought about a debuff grp aswell, they are easy to run vs low rr grps, wich everyone will be in the start, but as soon as enemy tanks get determination, charge, purge and starts do do higher dps you have to balance out your caster grp to a hybrid grp. Talked abit about it in a post above.

But I do believe albs with no petspam will suffer alot.

Self owned twice.

But I can say as much as I done alot of alb 8v8. And I would never play without a theug, ran two at times to wtf pwn bd+valk grps. For me alb has no kite and lacks alot of lockdown capacity without a theug, you will never get the upper hand in a fight that starts off on equal terms without one, you will never be given a window of oportunity to actually let loose on the body sorc + caba + sorc dps wich will kill.

Self owned three times.

And from that I noticed how much albs need the theug. But I mean I will play hib on an Origin server if they manage to get one up wich ain't no guarantee at all. All I want is balance and I can't see that happening without the theug for alb as rupter and kite engine.

Self owned four times!

As you can see from these post you are clearly stating on several occasions that you think albs need a Theurg to compete and that alb casters can't compete without them. But maybe you think something that you say will always lose is still powerful?

I on the other hand think that it was a good move to remove the Theurg and the realms will be much more balanced as a result. There will be an equal number of classes with an equal number of abilities. I can't see why alb will struggle more than hib/mid.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Please don't use personal insults when you are losing an argument.

I did not imply that albs need Theurgs it was a question to you. This was indicated by the use of a question mark at the end of the sentence, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension?

You have on mutliple occasions said that albs need Theurgs to compete. I will list them here for you:



Self owned once.



Self owned twice.



Self owned three times.



Self owned four times!

As you can see from these post you are clearly stating on several occasions that you think albs need a Theurg to compete and that alb casters can't compete without them. But maybe you think something that you say will always lose is still powerful?

I on the other hand think that it was a good move to remove the Theurg and the realms will be much more balanced as a result. There will be an equal number of classes with an equal number of abilities. I can't see why alb will struggle more than hib/mid.

What has this to do with you implying that I said Albion casters sucked and therefore need what you think an imbalanced caster ( theug ) to compete. That is not what I said so you fail on all your quotes.

Read in all my posts both here and on VN I said that an Albion group missing the theug and the role he fullfilled will in my opinion struggle, I also stated that it is in my own opinion, and I also think there are ways around it but those ways will make the Albion group setup weaker then it was before. And I'm also of the believe Albion 8 mans with theugs where not OP'd since the other realms have abils to deal with pets.

It has nothing to do with sorc, caba or casters at whole sucking, it has to do with group dynamics beeing diffrent.


- This is quoted directly from your own statement.

"If casters in general are underpowered you would suggest that rather than improve casters as a whole you would rather just add a class to alb only? If all the opted groups across all realms are running pure tank setups it saying that casters in general need a boost and you won't fix that by adding one class to one realm."

This is you talking here.
I havn't suggested or implied any such thing as casters in general are beeing underpowered, and I do not think people will run pure tank groups since you loose out on utility and kiting. You cannot go head to head vs 2 and 3 groups in todays daoc, ppl are too good for that.

- You did comment on this with some nonsense reply about ToA.

I still think your fishing after semantics and straws here. I think most people who somewhat followed the thread do understand my points and my intent.

And if you still fail to see it I will stake it out for you, so you can comment on relevant points in my arguments, and not wether I start an argument with the word ToA in it.

1) I think albion as a realm and 8 man community will struggle to make competative groups without a class who fills the theug role, wich is heavy fnf interrupts to free up the caba, body sorc and cc sorc to do dps.

2) I do believe it is not about sorc, caba, minstrel beeing weak or underpowered but their inherent class roles are diffrent from their "direct" counterparts ( which is a weak comparision since the classes roles even with same basic abils become diffrent by default ).

3) I do think casters in ToA where OPed due to taking advantage of increased dps and defence wich scaled higher then for the support/"tank" hp ratio.

4) I do not think that just b/c ToA made casters abit over the top that they were gimped in SI, they were deffo more balanced in dps and utiliy.

 

[Valgyr]

Alb grp with pwn!

Cleric no comment
Friar heal spec
Arms slam+snares enemy tanks
Sorc CC+assist nuke
Cabby Nuke MA
Body sorc nuke+backup cc
Mincer 4 insta interupts on short timers+twisting a pet
Mincer see above

Can play just as a hybrid alb grp can today with a mild form of kiting solid dps and great inteurpts