Possible 8v8 setups on Origins?

[WiZe^]

Cleric x 2
Sorc
Arms x 2
minst
Paladin
Caba

 

[Cadelin]

I have a feel alot of people will be running mid push tank grps with massive interrupts comming from valks

Albion with no theug, I don't know how that will work at all, but still time for them to figure that out, wether they go ahead and leave theugs out.

Main problem there as I see it is: Mids will have : Shaman, pac healer, valk as interrupt.

Hibernia will have: Bards, champion, eld

Albion will have: Minstrel and??? Can't really run with a reaver they don't have the same damage anymore with Levi nerf, ( same for valks , but valks have alot better rupt and heals aswell ) think albion will struggle, also since they can't fully buff their group with no buffbots.

2x clerics, 1x caba, paladin/2h/hyrbid spec ), minstrel, sorc - only 3 spots left...

For full buffs = friar,

For remotley any interrupts in the box = reaver

Now there is one spot left... won't work.

Perhaps a full caster group, 2x sorc, 3x caba, 2x clerics minstrel. And at high rrs add a hyrbid paladin for the slam insead of one caba, OK 2h dmg with celerity, and put in an armsman instead of minstrel, due to rr8+ u can afford not having spd6 and sos.

Alb will struggle qq

Albs won't be running with Reavers because they are an SI class.

For interrupts albs have:
Sorc - bolt range mezz, amnesia, pet
Cabby - nearsight, aoe disease, pet
Minstrel - 2x insta DD, 1x insta stun, pet

Sorc, Cabby, Minstrel, 2x Cleric, Friar, Armsmen, Mercenary seems a perfectly reasonable group setup.

Mid groups may well be able to run pure tank groups with good interrupts but they will be lacking in other areas. With no access to LW a Mid tank group can just do melee damage so Physical Defence will be incredibly popular among casters and BoF will be popular among druids/clerics. Buffed pets will be a huge pain especially with the reduction in CC.

 

[WiZe^]

I don't think i would have a Mercenary in a setgrp tbh.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

well tbh i think a good alb grp can be easily made without a therg.

A good sorc can keep the group interupted. Im intrested in a debuff grp on this server tbh as even tho theres no + dex and cast speed etc, old debuff grps used to annilihate alot of grps.

I reckon charge maybe a prob then since im not sure if it worked the same in OF as it does now

A sorc can't do cc, demezz, kite, pre kite, position and interrupt. No freakin way in todays DAoC.

I thought about a debuff grp aswell, they are easy to run vs low rr grps, wich everyone will be in the start, but as soon as enemy tanks get determination, charge, purge and starts do do higher dps you have to balance out your caster grp to a hybrid grp. Talked abit about it in a post above.

But I do believe albs with no petspam will suffer alot.

Just take a fotm hib setup.

2x Druids, one high reg, one high nurture spec ( shears etc ).
1x Bard - 2k range on end song, spd6, instant mezzes, normal aoe mez and BUFFS!. ( also AF buff now with recent changes)
1x BM with charge and determination, MoP - good dps
1x Hero, all heavy tanks are damn nice with the love they had the last years.
1x Champion, instant interrupts/debuffs, snares, good 2h dps, slam with hybrid spec.
1x Eld, interrupt, snares, OK single target nukes, ns, disease, stun
1x Ench, pet, debuff nukes both cold (for eld) and heat (himself), stuns and PBAOE to kill pets/box.

Hib groups will be very potent, mid groups aswell, especially with valk ruining hib pbaoe boxes with ease. Albs as I see it will have very little and if they ain't equal in the interrupt game it will be so hard.

Alb tank group can't afford a minstrel + friar, and they still need:

2x clerics, 1x cc sorc, 1x caba. And if they run anything but a full caster grp they will need a hybrid paladin for the end and celerity in the train.

Thats 5 spots taken by key classes ( tank grp or hybrid grp = pala, full caster u need a minty ).

2 spots left for dps and still you have no source of reliable interruption, I for sure won't play alb on an Origin server

Also keep in mind 2x clerics can not buff a whole group, just not possible.

 

[Faeldawn]

Hib:

Bard
Druid x 2
Warden
Eld (mana)
BM
Champ/Chanter/Ment/Second BM
Hero

Mid:

Skald
Healer x 2
Warrior
Valk
Zerker x 2
RM

Alb:

Scout x 7
Mincer

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Hib:

Bard
Druid x 2
Warden
Eld (mana)
BM
Champ/Chanter/Ment/Second BM
Hero

Why a warden ? Last I checked they are useless in train even with celerity, their heals not needed ( can't really heal while following tanks with celerity ), buffs not needed all get full buffs from 2x druids and 1 bard.


Think a nice mid setup would be.

2x healers, one pac one auger.
Shaman
rm
sm
skald (valk/savage, bers would say bd if they were in )
warrior
savage/bers

 

[Cadelin]

A sorc can't do cc, demezz, kite, pre kite, position and interrupt. No freakin way in todays DAoC.

I thought about a debuff grp aswell, they are easy to run vs low rr grps, wich everyone will be in the start, but as soon as enemy tanks get determination, charge, purge and starts do do higher dps you have to balance out your caster grp to a hybrid grp. Talked abit about it in a post above.

But I do believe albs with no petspam will suffer alot.

Alb tank group can't afford a minstrel + friar, and they still need:

2x clerics, 1x cc sorc, 1x caba. And if they run anything but a full caster grp they will need a hybrid paladin for the end and celerity in the train.

Thats 5 spots taken by key classes ( tank grp or hybrid grp = pala, full caster u need a minty ).

2 spots left for dps and still you have no source of reliable interruption, I for sure won't play alb on an Origin server

Also keep in mind 2x clerics can not buff a whole group, just not possible.

If hibs aren't running a warden for celerity albs don't need to run a paladin either. End pots and LW1 can provide perma sprint.

I don't see why a sorc can't position himself, cc, interupt and demezz. Thats no different from either the bard or the pac healer.

We have no idea what they are doing with buffs. They have mentioned a universal buff system. 2x clerics may well be enough and 2x clerics and a friar won't be bad as I suspect the friar will keep alot of the new procs he has, unlike say the valk which has already been said will be toned down by changing the styles it has.

Now given you think alb is so weak maybe you could clarify that when you get beaten by an alb group on origins you will admit they must be much more skillful than you because they are obviously playing hard mode.

 

[old.windforce]

sorc, sorc, caba, caba, cleric, cleric, heretic, minstrel

damn not having theurgists on alb

 

[cog]

You also don't get the tic.

Sorc sorc caba caba minc friar cler cler perhaps. Idk.

 

[Tuorin]

Why a warden ? Last I checked they are useless in train even with celerity, their heals not needed ( can't really heal while following tanks with celerity ), buffs not needed all get full buffs from 2x druids and 1 bard.

Hero or warden for guard if running hybrid group. Lots of pros and cons for either. Wardens have guard so could do the old guard job that heroes did upto 1.64/5. Not as durable as hero who will be far harder to kill than now either way.

Depends whats on the server, what sort of groups you face and so forth. 24% extra body resists as won't be any champion resists might be okay, plus q a lot of wardens util comes with hots(sadly nerfed now tho), insta heal(VR)/insta rez, twf and kite to position heal, mass preheal, drop to guarding etc.

Hero has a lot of util as off and def. Popping warden on train isn't really much good, but playing warden in free role, knowing when to interupt, twf, drop backand heal or just plain guard then roam when tanks dead might work out.
Then again you could spec a warden on a train perhaps. Get AOTG, d/add chant, twist with celerity so can get extra 27.5dps and then use RR5 and hots. Tanks will benefit from that dps, just not from warden much.

Hero/Arms/Warriors magic damage resistance plus soldiers barricade might make them a really good option as there won't be banelords. Bms, mercs, zerks will have charge (they have to remove it from valks or its gonna be totally one-sided) and just use heavy tanks to soak damage which will be a lot less than toa servers. All in all be down to what you face in the main, hopefully it won't be everyone runs exact same setup.

Game going to be about the cc timers and reapp of cc more so than now, even in short fights. That's dependindgon if they implement it as they currently suggest.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Hero or warden for guard if running hybrid group. Lots of pros and cons for either. Wardens have guard so could do the old guard job that heroes did upto 1.64/5. Not as durable as hero who will be far harder to kill than now either way.

Depends whats on the server, what sort of groups you face and so forth. 24% extra body resists as won't be any champion resists might be okay, plus q a lot of wardens util comes with hots(sadly nerfed now tho), insta heal(VR)/insta rez, twf and kite to position heal, mass preheal, drop to guarding etc.

Hero has a lot of util as off and def. Popping warden on train isn't really much good, but playing warden in free role, knowing when to interupt, twf, drop backand heal or just plain guard then roam when tanks dead might work out.
Then again you could spec a warden on a train perhaps. Get AOTG, d/add chant, twist with celerity so can get extra 27.5dps and then use RR5 and hots. Tanks will benefit from that dps, just not from warden much.

Hero/Arms/Warriors magic damage resistance plus soldiers barricade might make them a really good option as there won't be banelords. Bms, mercs, zerks will have charge (they have to remove it from valks or its gonna be totally one-sided) and just use heavy tanks to soak damage which will be a lot less than toa servers. All in all be down to what you face in the main, hopefully it won't be everyone runs exact same setup.

Game going to be about the cc timers and reapp of cc more so than now, even in short fights. That's dependindgon if they implement it as they currently suggest.

Hmm, yah you got some good points there. I merly thought of using the Hero / champ as a defensive guarder against a tank heavy group, especially with DW nerf, making gaurd very nice. Giving up a perma spot to a warden for situational use of guard is in my book harsh

The added 24% resis is raped by debuffs though, debuff on 50% body and debuff on 26% body yields roughly the same dmg kinda, caps you in either way ( iirc ).

---
@Cadelin
Having a 2h hybrid paladin in the albion armsman train is alot better then having a warden in a hib grp where he cant heal and provide cele at same time+interrupt. It isn't so easy to explain but hibs get most of their key abils already, and having that warden is more situational then actually making that group work.

The Hybrid paladin specced 42 shield, 44 2h 51 compsite weapon will carry the grp with gellow celerity and gellow endo and gellow / blue elemental resis. Armsman + hybrid pala does alot alot alot more dps then only an armsman.

About the sorc stuff, ofc a sorc CAN do it all but enemy group will not have a hard time locking one class, it is like placing too many eggs in one basket going to the market... if you loose one egg you loose them all basically.

Thats why Bard who can cc, and interrupt, end song, spd for support to pre kite...
An Eldritch, diease spam ( form of cc + interrupt + cripple heals for burst dmg ), aoe snares ( cc ), ns..
and a Champion with ST, instant interrupts, debuffs, slam, 2h dmg will have it alot easier doing the rupts, it is spread over 3 classes that does the same thing in diffrent ways. It will be superior to a sorc running away from a bers the whole fight

 

[Tuorin]

Hmm, yah you got some good points there. I merly thought of using the Hero / champ as a defensive guarder against a tank heavy group, especially with DW nerf, making gaurd very nice. Giving up a perma spot to a warden for situational use of guard is in my book harsh

The added 24% resis is raped by debuffs though, debuff on 50% body and debuff on 26% body yields roughly the same dmg kinda, caps you in either way ( iirc ).

I'd prefer to play hero for sure, warden can do the pure guard job and be picked for guard firstly. If your group is very good, then once threats to casters have been removed, then warden can use some of his many abilities. As always with warden, none are absolute difference makers on paper.

How a warden would do in a sort of 1.64/5 variant of daoc against 3 strong tanks remains to be seen. He would last longer than now using toa +caps for sure. Could a warden with 42shield, some mob and decent dex withstand as a guard 2 zerkers and a valk for example? Depends a lot on what they do anyway with slam. If they remove it as an anytime then wardens simply can't afford to spec any higher than 42 shield even if they keep the offblock at 50 shield. Making a warden 50 shield gimps him completely with 1.8 spec points.

The fact always remains is a warden has several hundred hps less than a hero regardless of anything else. He just wouldn't do as good as a pure guard as the class is not as tough as either champ or hero. Strong tanks and casters could take down the warden guarder first, whereas they never could target the guard first. As examples toa wardens as BG get maed down, whereas hero can't be maed down in anything like the time, even with the extra dps of +caps/speed etc. In essence a s/s champ could make a good guard, but still way short of heavy tank survivability wise.

I think in reality all that will happen if teams run warden as pure guard is he will be maed down first.

 

[cog]

If your group is very good

Thats Patri out of the picture then! :lol:

Though I agree with Tuo, I would prefer a hero over warden, because of the added offensive utility once threats are locked down, and mostly the general increased toughness over a warden for guarding. Im not convinced the warden's toys bring enough to the table to outweigh that. Purely personal opinion though ofc~

 

[- English -]

sorc, sorc, caba, caba, cleric, cleric, heretic, minstrel

damn not having theurgists on alb

since when will heretics be in ;p

 

[Faeldawn]

Why a warden ? Last I checked they are useless in train even with celerity, their heals not needed ( can't really heal while following tanks with celerity ), buffs not needed all get full buffs from 2x druids and 1 bard.

Wardens are very versatile, post ToA wardens became BG bots when they have a lot of very useful tools. Wardens are not an assist tank train class, but they can take any healer out of the game. Get a warden on yer ass and you'll need to call in help to scrape him off, you can't outrun him. If one player can tie-up two or even three opponents then your effectively 7v5 for a while.

Don't knock their use as a backup healer/rezzer either, if your healers are interrupted a good warden can kick out decent single line heals if needed.

A good, well played warden who knows what to do and reacts well to the situation is a great asset to have in a hib 8-man. They cannot take or deal damage like a hero or champ, but they bring a lot more to the party.

Side note, pre-SI wardens did not have celerity, hots, shield spec etc so a lot depends on what Mythic decide to do with them and all the other classes as it's unclear at the moment if they will all be current, pre-SI or some combination of both.

 

[Cadelin]

About the sorc stuff, ofc a sorc CAN do it all but enemy group will not have a hard time locking one class, it is like placing too many eggs in one basket going to the market... if you loose one egg you loose them all basically.

Thats why Bard who can cc, and interrupt, end song, spd for support to pre kite...
An Eldritch, diease spam ( form of cc + interrupt + cripple heals for burst dmg ), aoe snares ( cc ), ns..
and a Champion with ST, instant interrupts, debuffs, slam, 2h dmg will have it alot easier doing the rupts, it is spread over 3 classes that does the same thing in diffrent ways. It will be superior to a sorc running away from a bers the whole fight

But you can say that about any class. Its far easier to lock down a bard than a sorc because a bard has to push. Also the bard can't play end and speed because you can't cast while twisting.
If you have a good cabalist he can disease spam, nearsight etc and can debuff for both himself and the sorc to take down over-extended tanks. A minstrel has a ranged insta stun on a very short re-use timer as well as 2x DD and he has a pet can can go into melee mode unlike a bard who will lose his chants if he does.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Theorycraft at its best.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

Wardens are very versatile, post ToA wardens became BG bots when they have a lot of very useful tools. Wardens are not an assist tank train class, but they can take any healer out of the game. Get a warden on yer ass and you'll need to call in help to scrape him off, you can't outrun him. If one player can tie-up two or even three opponents then your effectively 7v5 for a while.

Don't knock their use as a backup healer/rezzer either, if your healers are interrupted a good warden can kick out decent single line heals if needed.

A good, well played warden who knows what to do and reacts well to the situation is a great asset to have in a hib 8-man. They cannot take or deal damage like a hero or champ, but they bring a lot more to the party.

Side note, pre-SI wardens did not have celerity, hots, shield spec etc so a lot depends on what Mythic decide to do with them and all the other classes as it's unclear at the moment if they will all be current, pre-SI or some combination of both.

Wardens can guard well with some dex3, mob3 np. Thing is a champ or a hero can do that job aswell, just as well probably better and you do not loose a spot to a class that has situational value only, as I see it though.

PBT useless. Celerity when guardian, useless ( well it is nice when slam spamming tbh, I can admit to that..but dragon large shield is low endo use 3.0 spd... caped slam spd @ 228 qu and red haste 10% melee spd, go 250 qu and your basically there without the 10% spd).

The resists are nice when beeing nuked without a debuff, but 8 man groups will probably not worry you unless they do land a debuff where it no longer matters if you have 26% or 46% it will go down to neutral figures and cap dmg anyway.

Hots, abit overrated in 8v8 if you ask me... emergancy heals, well I rather have another dps or another high util class in the group. Ah well I guess it is a matter of preference and playstyle, for a pbaoe group I would consider a warden.

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

But you can say that about any class. Its far easier to lock down a bard than a sorc because a bard has to push. Also the bard can't play end and speed because you can't cast while twisting.
If you have a good cabalist he can disease spam, nearsight etc and can debuff for both himself and the sorc to take down over-extended tanks. A minstrel has a ranged insta stun on a very short re-use timer as well as 2x DD and he has a pet can can go into melee mode unlike a bard who will lose his chants if he does.

Aye I know, it is abit too much of theory to stake out examples and so on where x group will get pwned, since x can always happend.. etc.

But I can say as much as I done alot of alb 8v8. And I would never play without a theug, ran two at times to wtf pwn bd+valk grps. For me alb has no kite and lacks alot of lockdown capacity without a theug, you will never get the upper hand in a fight that starts off on equal terms without one, you will never be given a window of oportunity to actually let loose on the body sorc + caba + sorc dps wich will kill.

 

[Cadelin]

But I can say as much as I done alot of alb 8v8. And I would never play without a theug, ran two at times to wtf pwn bd+valk grps. For me alb has no kite and lacks alot of lockdown capacity without a theug, you will never get the upper hand in a fight that starts off on equal terms without one, you will never be given a window of oportunity to actually let loose on the body sorc + caba + sorc dps wich will kill.

There will be no Bd and they have already stated the current state of valks will be changed.

Albs can kite perfectly well without Theurgs, every caster has spells with more than 1500 range. I also don't see what kind of lockdown capacity either Mid or Hib have that Albs now don't have.

If you have only played 8v8 as an alb it must be hard to judge how balanced a Theurg is. You said yourself you wouldn't run in a group without one so surely that indicates that they were a very strong class.

 

[Chimaira]

Dont wanna miss out on theurg haste either. Supposedly given to some crap class like wizard I bet

 

[Patriarch<>Matriarch]

There will be no Bd and they have already stated the current state of valks will be changed.

Albs can kite perfectly well without Theurgs, every caster has spells with more than 1500 range. I also don't see what kind of lockdown capacity either Mid or Hib have that Albs now don't have.

If you have only played 8v8 as an alb it must be hard to judge how balanced a Theurg is. You said yourself you wouldn't run in a group without one so surely that indicates that they were a very strong class.

Well I mentioned the two theugs more as a statment on how important they been in Albion groups from my POV.

I played rr9 cleric, rr8 hybrid paladin, rr8 minstrel, rr6ish tri spec caba, rr8 armsman.

In mid I played rr7 aug/pac, rr8 skald, rr7 valk

In Hib I played rr6 bard, rr5 ench, rr6 druid

And from that I noticed how much albs need the theug. But I mean I will play hib on an Origin server if they manage to get one up wich ain't no guarantee at all. All I want is balance and I can't see that happening without the theug for alb as rupter and kite engine.

And theug ice pets + earth pets is what can lock you down completly, that is what makes it possible to kite and kite good. If you have a crappy theug in todays RvR I don't see you up with the top groups competing on equal grounds. And not much changed except for TOA and MLs for example hib and mid, they still have their base concept of rupt and cc.

Well I guess I'm wrong, albion do not need theugs at all, and alb will be fine.

 

[partyanimal]

pre si... mids and hibs whine they want a pet spam class like theurg for rvr but for pve as well...
what did they get? bonedancer and animist
bonedancer pre-toa, average soloer in rvr, no grps... in pve ... lol , post toa uber rvr , average pve with ml9 pet
animist uber pve and uber keep defence until nerf , after that ani has just spike dam in rvr

anyway albs are much better casterwise than mids even without theurg, sorc + wizzy + caba >>> rm + sm.

 

[Cadelin]

And from that I noticed how much albs need the theug. But I mean I will play hib on an Origin server if they manage to get one up wich ain't no guarantee at all. All I want is balance and I can't see that happening without the theug for alb as rupter and kite engine.

And theug ice pets + earth pets is what can lock you down completly, that is what makes it possible to kite and kite good. If you have a crappy theug in todays RvR I don't see you up with the top groups competing on equal grounds. And not much changed except for TOA and MLs for example hib and mid, they still have their base concept of rupt and cc.

Well I guess I'm wrong, albion do not need theugs at all, and alb will be fine.

You may feel you need a Theurg when competing against current ToA setups but in Origins the Theurg would be the only class of its type and terribly over powered, in both PvE and RvR.

I know ice pets + earth pets can lock down another group incredibly well but I am asking which OTHER class has ever been able to do that? Only the Bd came close and thats not going to be in origins.

In origins the 3 realms will have the same number of classes and the same number of abilities although they will be distributed among the class slightly differently. You have yet to give a reason why Albs won't be able to compete when they have the same abilities as Mid/Hib.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

You're all missing the point really. You don't know the gear and the caps, but it will be weaker than now. Heavy tanks with current styles will trash all casters even if the tanks have 75 strength and 0% ToA bonuses.

A Sorc with shitty dex and cast speed will always be instae'd on incoming by some random class on a full population server and if it's hanging back it will get SoS'ed, so here goes your initial mezz that could buy you some precious seconds.

From there it will get trained, not being able to do much as it will get strafed and walked-through, game over.

Cleric, Cleric, Friar, Minstrel, 3 Tanks, 1 Earth Wizzards (for EB, ghetto NS, snares and roots and DPS) could work to a degree.

Would be interesting to see how they intend to fix disease.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

I know ice pets + earth pets can lock down another group incredibly well but I am asking which OTHER class has ever been able to do that? Only the Bd came close and thats not going to be in origins.

Banelord Heretic, better RA selection than Theurg, better Artifact selection than Theurg, more survivability, base line buffs, base heals and so on.

Pre tendrils nerf with Purge 3 it was just a joke: run into a group, get stunned, purge and interrupt them all.

Worked as good as a Theurg against shit groups.

 

[Gahn]

Am not entirely sure that a 50 shield tank guarding a caster will let him be trained THAT easy since the triad changes.
If the trend is waving back the balance to Heavy tank groups 2 guarders COULD be a must for Hib and Alb, moreso if the cc reductions gets in (and if disease remains as it is) and if they remove or tone down once again Determination.

 

[Maeloch]

Am not entirely sure that a 50 shield tank guarding a caster will let him be trained THAT easy since the triad changes.

I seem to remember a screenie from pre-toa with a high mob pally chain blocking for a sorc vs a str/con debuffed train, so it probably wasn't that bad in the first place...

 

[Maeloch]

Hell once I even remember getting guard off jamies...

 

[Gahn]

I seem to remember a screenie from pre-toa with a high mob pally chain blocking for a sorc vs a str/con debuffed train, so it probably wasn't that bad in the first place...

Yeh wasn't that bad, but surely it is better without the 50% reduction ^^
Moreso if the train swaps target and goes for the Guarder (i remember being trashed my self even before the guarded one from the Savages train, which thx god we won't see no more at least without that effectivness).