Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Raven]

Revenue:
LVMH - 18bn
Shell - 96bn

...

You're getting Revenue and Operating income mixed up. They actually made 64bn Revenue.

But yeah, Shell are in a different ballpark, though profits, aren't actually all that different.

LVMH 64.2 / 17.15
Shell 261.5 / 33.4

*Based on Wikipedia, no I don't care enough to check anything official.

Edit, 2022 has likely turned all that on its head though, so pretty irrelevant now.

 

[Scouse]

You're getting Revenue and Operating income mixed up

Simple google search of revenue for both - although a (slightly) better search shows LVMH at 50bn.

Either way - it makes no difference. Bodhi can exclude what he likes from the exchange to fit his own narrative and not talk about the impact on British Business across the board.

Pointedly, as this man's travails have been public (and followed here):

Cheesemaker sells firm to overcome Brexit barriers after losing £600,000 in sales

Cheshire Cheese Company bought by Joseph Heler Cheese, which has maintained EU presence

www.theguardian.com

Small business is fooked.

 

[Scouse]

Edit, 2022 has likely turned all that on its head though, so pretty irrelevant now.

Nah. Shell have grown profits and revenue massively, LV about 20%...

 

[Bodhi]

Revenue:
LVMH - 18bn
Shell - 96bn

...

Cool story bro. However I wasn't talking about revenue, or profit for that matter.

Shame I was talking about Market Cap, and value of shares traded on each exchange, which feed into the numbers beingf quoted.

LVMH Market Value - £308 billion
Shell - £165 billion

Figures from below, presuming you're smart enough to get round a paywall. Although given you're talking about revenue of a company when I was discussing their market value, I'm not 100% sure.

The decline of the London stock market

Paris has just overtaken London as Europe’s largest stock market – and the UK has only itself to blame.

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[Scouse]

Cool Article Bro

All the shares listed on the London market put together are now worth $2.821 trillion (£2.405 trillion), while all the shares on the Paris bourse are worth $2.83 trillion (£2.413 trillion). It might be a marginal difference. And yet, in reality, it is likely to increase over time. That matters.

Of course, being the Spacktator it blames the EU for it's restrictions, even though it's discussing Paris, which last time I looked was in the EU.

The reality is, since Brexit, the UK stock market has lagged the US by 50% and the EU by about 25%. It's only now the pound is worthless that UK stocks are seen as discounted and all the markets fucking hate our Brexit overhang.

 

[Jupitus]

Sorry @Bodhi Bods mate - you're wrong on this one old chap....

 

[Jupitus]

BTW - anyone else remember the 'Free Bodhi' campaign?

 

[caLLous]

...LVMH - and how their shares are worth 3 times as much as our biggest fish, Royal Dutch Shell.

LVMH Market Value - £308 billion
Shell - £165 billion

...presuming you're smart enough...

Something something glass houses.

 

[Tom]

BTW - anyone else remember the 'Free Bodhi' campaign?

I remember the Free Wij one, which IIRC ended up on places like Blueyonder and Jolt.

 

[Wij]

I remember the Free Wij one, which IIRC ended up on places like Blueyonder.

*goatse*

 

[Bodhi]

Cool Article Bro

Of course, being the Spacktator it blames the EU for it's restrictions, even though it's discussing Paris, which last time I looked was in the EU.

The reality is, since Brexit, the UK stock market has lagged the US by 50% and the EU by about 25%. It's only now the pound is worthless that UK stocks are seen as discounted and all the markets fucking hate our Brexit overhang.

I'll need a source for those numbers - or at least link me to the blog you got your opinions from. Otherwise I will suspect they were produced from your arse.

BTW - anyone else remember the 'Free Bodhi' campaign?

I struggle to remember what I had for dinner last Tuesday never mind stuff from all those years ago Did anyone get a free Bodhi? Did they send them back for being mostly drunk and producing a lot of smoke?

Something something glass houses.

Mea culpa - didn't check my figures from an article I'd read the day before. a) I'm awfully busy don't you know (Arnhem is lovely) and b) see above about being drunk and producing smoke.

Whilst I have no doubt there will be negative consequences of Brexit, stock market values ain't it (chief).

 

[Aoami]

"If we were to do it independently, to give you an example of how much harder it is, we used to be able to send samples to the UK for €20 ($21; £17.60), and it would take two to three days max [for them to get to the addressee]," he says.

"Now if we send samples it's €200 minimum, and one in three won't get there"."

Vegan 'cheese' market booms as demand grows

As more people turn to non-dairy alternatives, vegan 'cheese' sales are taking off around the world.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Raven]

"If we were to do it independently, to give you an example of how much harder it is, we used to be able to send samples to the UK for €20 ($21; £17.60), and it would take two to three days max [for them to get to the addressee]," he says.

"Now if we send samples it's €200 minimum, and one in three won't get there"."

Vegan 'cheese' market booms as demand grows

As more people turn to non-dairy alternatives, vegan 'cheese' sales are taking off around the world.

www.bbc.co.uk

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-...NdOa6KCIotx5v8h-Ox0aAsWEEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds ?

And no, I don't know how, nor do I care how to shorten Tesco links @Wij I belive?

PS, I get stuff sent from NL, next day, all the time (costs about a fiver). Not sure what the issue is really.

Edit, oh I get it now. It's the BBC trying to make out everyone eats artisan vegan food, rolled on the thighs of virgins in a pop up creamery in Islington or whatever.

Foodie bollocks. Viz.

 

[Scouse]

PS, I get stuff sent from NL, next day, all the time (costs about a fiver). Not sure what the issue is really.

The cheese guy (not read the vegan one) spells it out really clearly - for small businesses with low volumes it's a nightmare. That's why he's sold the business to a big company that does things in bulk - so his produce goes on one of their pallets - one set of paperwork for lots of customers - so cost and paperwork costs are split.

To do it for individual customers for a small business is untenable. But splitting shit out off a pallet for big business is fine.

i.e. - small businesses are getting fucked over, as it ever was.

 

[Raven]

The cheese guy (not read the vegan one) spells it out really clearly - for small businesses with low volumes it's a nightmare. That's why he's sold the business to a big company that does things in bulk - so his produce goes on one of their pallets - one set of paperwork for lots of customers - so cost and paperwork costs are split.

To do it for individual customers for a small business is untenable. But splitting shit out off a pallet for big business is fine.

i.e. - small businesses are getting fucked over, as it ever was.

Yeah, that's great and all. Maybe he needs a little advice on how to run an import business? You do not ship stuff on its own, unless you have to, and even in the EU, that was expensive. If he has 100 customers, stick it on a pallet, import it, distribute it. It's not actually that hard. There are very few goods that actually attract duty, and any VAT (as a business) is accountable for anyway, in the tax return, it isn't actually extra cost, that's not how VAT works.

 

[Scouse]

Yeah, that's great and all. Maybe he needs a little advice on how to run an import business? You do not ship stuff on its own, unless you have to, and even in the EU, that was expensive. If he has 100 customers, stick it on a pallet, import it, distribute it. It's not actually that hard. There are very few goods that actually attract duty, and any VAT (as a business) is accountable for anyway, in the tax return, it isn't actually extra cost, that's not how VAT works.

I think you're being a bit wilful about this issue tbh.

A small business sending time-dependent low-value perishables to the EU can't really wait until he's got enough orders to fill up a pallet can he?

And it's not a small number of just small businesses complaining either. - I think you're taking your experience and applying it to every other business, despite not having knowledge of their cicrumstances.

Personally I used to buy a lot of components from the EU and I'm struggling to get anything now. Even larger brands that I used to buy stuff from have told me directly that they don't supply the UK any more.

 

[Raven]

I think you're being a bit wilful about this issue tbh.

A small business sending time-dependent low-value perishables to the EU can't really wait until he's got enough orders to fill up a pallet can he?

And it's not a small number of just small businesses complaining either. - I think you're taking your experience and applying it to every other business, despite not having knowledge of their cicrumstances.

Personally I used to buy a lot of components from the EU and I'm struggling to get anything now. Even larger brands that I used to buy stuff from have told me directly that they don't supply the UK any more.

If you say so. Back in the real world, not a lot has changed. We had to adapt, obviously, but we knew about it years ago. It appears the only people that have had problems are those that refused to adapt. It's not ideal, but it's easy to navigate, and the cost is minimal. I can get an entire trailer (~40 tons) through customs for ~£80 plus normal shipping charges.

I will be honest, government advice has bordered on pointless, and still is, the switch from CHIEF to CDS was a complete disaster, and still is, on going, dragging on, but easily worked around. Again, that is not the fault of Brexit itself, just Tories being fucking useless and distracted by meaningless shit.

Edit, I should add that most of the issues related to Brexit (imports wise) are exporters not filling in the paper work that, legally, they should have been filling in while in the EU. EU law isn't really followed within the EU...

 

[Scouse]

If you say so. Back in the real world, not a lot has changed.

How can you say that when 80% of businesses are complaining, smaller businesses have died or been sold to bigger players and (multiple) freddies have directly complained of their problems sourcing stuff they used to source?

That's the very definition of "real world"?


What exactly is it you import/export out of interest?

 

[Raven]

How can you say that when 80% of businesses are complaining, smaller businesses have died or been sold to bigger players and (multiple) freddies have directly complained of their problems sourcing stuff they used to source?

That's the very definition of "real world"?


What exactly is it you import/export out of interest?

I can say it quite easily, as someone that works for an NL company that distributes in the UK. I import mechanical and electrical things. (part of my job, I check an email now and again, because it just works) We don't export much, except to ROI. Without naming customers (because it likely comes under an NDA of some sort) we keep big (huge) distribution firms running.

Drive up the M1 and you will see hundreds of examples of our work in the warehousing.

 

[Raven]

Too long for an edit, but I will challenge you to give me one example of an item that now costs more to import than it used to. Disregarding idiots that try to ship a shoebox, individually...which would have been daft even when in the EU. The vast majority of products still attract exactly zero duty.

Edit, you can facepalm me all you like @Scouse I do this for a living. I know vastly more about the subject than you do.

 

[Scouse]

I can say it quite easily, as someone that works for an NL company that distributes in the UK.

Yes. Electrical stuff in bulk. Completely different to a lot of other stuff.

"I'm alright jack".

And frankly - even if if you are right and businesses are talking a load of shit and they can do it easily - they're not doing it - so the "real world" experience is that it's fucking hard to get hold of stuff.

 

[Scouse]

Disregarding idiots that try to ship a shoebox, individually...

You mean like dairy manufacturers who might want to ship a wheel of cheese very easily and cheaply, which they now can't do?

There's plenty of examples (and we've already done this) - but I guess anyone who doesn't run your business model is an "idiot" rather than someone who's been fucked over by brexit.

i.e. small business. the twats.

 

[Raven]

You mean like dairy manufacturers who might want to ship a wheel of cheese very easily and cheaply, which they now can't do?

Why though? even in the EU that wouldn't make any sort of sense.

And to use your cheese example

Commodity code 0406902190: Other - UK Integrated Online Tariff - GOV.UK

Other

www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk

Oh look, 0% duty.

 

[Raven]

Yes. Electrical stuff in bulk. Completely different to a lot of other stuff.

"I'm alright jack".

And frankly - even if if you are right and businesses are talking a load of shit and they can do it easily - they're not doing it - so the "real world" experience is that it's fucking hard to get hold of stuff.

Actually, stuff small enough to fit in an envelope. PCBs, and the like. Usually by DHL, effortless, cheap.

 

[Scouse]

Oh look, 0% duty.

Jeesus. The cheese guy had £20/30 packs he was sending to individuals - but post brexit each of these packs had to have a health certificate - apparently costing £180 - to go over.

He sold the business he built. People don't do that lightly you know?

Now the larger company - that does palletized deliveries in volumes that make sense - means his produce can go over, get split out, no overheads.

But small companies? They're fucking dead. It's not hard to comprehend.

So I'll take the word of a small business owner, who sold his baby because of brexit, over someone who does bulk orders and can't comprehend any other way of doing business.

 

[Scouse]

Actually, stuff small enough to fit in an envelope. PCBs, and the like. Usually by DHL, effortless, cheap.

Health certificate?

 

[Tom]

Too long for an edit, but I will challenge you to give me one example of an item that now costs more to import than it used to

I bought a Dutch bicycle earlier this year. The UK seller (who imported it on my behalf) absorbed the £500 or so import duty due.

That's £500 out of his pocket, in one sale.

 

[Raven]

I bought a Dutch bicycle earlier this year. The UK seller (who imported it on my behalf) absorbed the £500 or so import duty due.

That's £500 out of his pocket, in one sale.

He lied to you. Bikes attract zero duty.

Commodity code 8712003090: Other - UK Integrated Online Tariff - GOV.UK

Other

www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk

 

[Ormorof]

He lied to you. Bikes attract zero duty.

Commodity code 8712003090: Other - UK Integrated Online Tariff - GOV.UK

Other

www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk

Since 2021 NL falls under third country rules according to that sites own calculator and attracts 14% duty...

 

[Raven]

Since 2021 NL falls under third country rules according to that sites own calculator and attracts 14% duty...

No it doesn't, it specifically mentions the EU and even has a calculator where you can enter Netherlands as a source.

When will the good be imported - Online Tariff Duty calculator

www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk

The rate is zero. As are the vast majority of mechanical items.