Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Raven]

So, 6 months then.

We can't produce lamb for 12 months of the year, which is why for ~6 months of the year, the lamb you buy now is NZ lamb, only now it will be easier to import.

* and no, this deal means pretty much nothing because we already import it. But the argument against it is laughable. Straws are being desperately clutched.

 

[Aoami]

Lamb is produced year round in the UK.

 

[Raven]

"lamb" is, lamb isn't...and I know a lot of sheep farmers.

There is a reason it's called lamb, it's because lambs are slaughtered and not sheep. Sheep breed based on season, they do not produce lamb in the summer/autumn, it just doesn't happen. Lamb are born in March/April sort of time.

Yes, cold, hard reality for townies, Lamb is adolescent sheep, you're eating puppies/kittens, essentially.

 

[Aoami]

Sheep breed based on season, they do not produce lamb in the summer/autumn, it just doesn't happen.

Seasonal reproduction in ewes – how to manipulate the breeding season

By Dr Ruth Wonfor, IBERS

businesswales.gov.wales

Sorry, but I was literally talking to a Sheep Farmer in Llangattock about this yesterday.

Edit - That is to say my dad was talking to him whilst I half listened as I had very little interest.

 

[Raven]

OK, I live half a mile from 3 of them, they drink in the same pub (if we are comparing celebs) You can fuck about with it a bit but for the most part it's more effort than it's worth.

UK lambing seasons is March/April (and maybe Feb) it just is what it is.

Feeding them is the hardest part, and you aren't going to have the foodstock to feed lambs during the winter.

 

[Aoami]

Dont know why im arguing this because i literally dont give a fuck, but a quick look at all the main supermarkets (minus tesco, website is down) says they sell british lamb all year round

Backing British lamb

www.about.sainsburys.co.uk

Waitrose & Partners

Buy quality groceries and wine from Waitrose & Partners

www.waitrose.com

100% British Fresh Meat - Morrisons

All Morrisons unprocessed fresh meat is 100% British, 100% of the time. Our fresh pork, chicken, beef, lamb and turkey always comes from UK farmers we trust. Here are just some of the farmers we work with.

my.morrisons.com

Asda commits to UK lamb sourcing

The retailer said that from mid-July, it will guarantee that 100% of lamb loins, boned out leg joints, half legs and lamb on sale in its stores will be UK-sourced

www.thegrocer.co.uk

 

[Raven]

It's not fresh. Frozen is not fresh.

You can argue about it all you like, but fresh lamb has a very short shelf life, from source to table, that's science, unfortunately.

 

[Aoami]

All of the articles say fresh lamb so you'd better get on the blower to trading standards

edit - except sainos

also, i doubt you can freeze meat, thaw it out and sell it as fresh, that sounds dodgy as fuck?

 

[Raven]

Imagine if UK supermarkets were elaborate with the truth.

 

[Aoami]

Young farmers to encourage Brits to eat lamb all year round

Lamb producers have been urged to pull together to change tradition and put lamb back on plates all year round.

www.farminguk.com

" While tradition sees the country eating more lamb at Easter, Britain typically produces the highest volume of lamb during the last six months of the year, with a peak of supply from September through to December. "

 

[Raven]

There's that 6 months again...

 

[Raven]

No, I said we don't produce lamb, as in they aren't born. NZ have the same "issue" but in reverse.

Seems like a perfectly reasonable deal if you are really into eating lamb...

Edit, mutton is fine if you aren't a snob, it just needs slow cooking a bit longer.

 

[Scouse]

Considering I live on a Welsh hill farm that specialised in lamb, am surrounded by Welsh hill farmers who very much do lamb - and they do it to the highest quality - and New Zealand lamb, the son of the previous owner of this place has gone there because he was too shit to make it work for him here.

It's not fresh. Frozen is not fresh.

So, do you think they don't freeze New Zealand lamb to bring it over here?

All it is is a race to the bottom in environmental and animal husbandry standards. It's a fucking disgrace.

Oh, btw:

Sheep breed based on season, they do not produce lamb in the summer/autumn, it just doesn't happen. Lamb are born in March/April sort of time.

Lambing round here starts in February. If they want to push a second lambing season out they can do, but generally choose not to - because it's hard on the sheep.

New Zealand lamb though? Fuck yeah. On Steroids.

Literally.


Edit: And we'll ignore the fact that it's from the other side of the world...

 

[Raven]

That's all very interesting but it doesn't separate from the fact that if you want fresh UK lamb then it is born from Feb (early) to April and if you want lamb in December then it is either previously frozen or imported. It makes fuck all difference whether we are in the EU or not, being in the EU does not change the planet's spin, regardless of what EU nutters believe.

 

[Scouse]

That's all very interesting but it doesn't separate from the fact that if you want fresh UK lamb then it is born from Feb (early) to April and if you want lamb in December then it is either previously frozen or imported.

So why not buy frozen British lamb then? Instead of importing frozen New Zealand lamb from the other side of the world, grown to lower animal husbandry standards?

Edit: Feb isn't that early btw. Some pop theirs at Christmas.

 

[Raven]

That's not the argument...

I have no problem with previously frozen lamb...but it isn't fresh, regardless of the marketing behind it.

 

[Scouse]

Please to be defining this "fresh" thing Mr @Raven

On the face of it - "fresh" sounds like a quality and time argument. New Zealand lamb takes a bit under two months (frozen) to get to the UK, then it needs to be turned around for the supermarkets. How "fresh" is that?

We export (mainly to the discerning palletes in Europe) more lamb than we import. The reason we eat NZ lamb is price. But the price of NZ lamb is no different in Europe, yet they still choose British.

Ask yourself - why is that?


Quality is on the side of the UK. And the way we manage our flocks - in terms of antibiotic use and animal welfare (for example, NZ farmers can still dock the tails of their lambs, without any anasthetic, up to six months of age) is also superior.

Environmentally, we produce enough lamb for the UK market. We should be sourcing it here.

For me - your "freshness" argument needs to be amazingly compelling to override animal cruelty/other husbandry arrangements, environmental, antibiotic and all other considerations (including putting UK farmers under even more pressure).

The only thing making NZ look good is that at least we've not got a US deal yet because they pump their shit way full of growth hormones.

 

[Raven]

You seem to have a habit of arguing with people that are stating how things are, as if it is their opinion.
I don't support importing NZ lamb, I have simply stated the valid reasons why it is imported at certain times of the year. Frankly, I don't see why people can't just go without for 6 months of the year, it's supposed to be seasonal meat.

 

[DaGaffer]

Lots of stupid people don't understand how seasons work, it's fine.

It's almost as if they believe lambs are born all year round or at exactly the same time all over the globe.

The UK's own analysis shows no benefit and a possible loss, from the NZ deal.

 

[Raven]

...and that's the nature of a free trade deal, otherwise it wouldn't be a free trade deal, would it?

Edit, there are other benefits of a free trade deal, financial services, other trade.

Along with the other benefits of not being in the EU, such as not having our constitution (if we had one) overridden, looking at you, Poland.

 

[DaGaffer]

...and that's the nature of a free trade deal, otherwise it wouldn't be a free trade deal, would it?

What? No, its supposed to grow trade and an ideal trade deal mutually grows GDP. Otherwise what's the point?

This trade deal (and indeed every UK deal so far), is not about trade, its just political theatre to show the Tories are "getting Brexit done".

 

[Scouse]

Yeah. If you do a "free trade deal" that doesn't benefit you financially then actually you're "being a fucking idiot".

 

[Gwadien]

The 'benefit' was that the UK gets more access to the NZ jobs market - Boris.

I'm not sure of that means people moving to NZ (which isn't a benefit if we're losing professionals) or it means that jobs will be contracted out to the UK, but I don't see how that works either, because you know... opposite side of the planet and all that.

 

[DaGaffer]

The 'benefit' was that the UK gets more access to the NZ jobs market - Boris.

I'm not sure of that means people moving to NZ (which isn't a benefit if we're losing professionals) or it means that jobs will be contracted out to the UK, but I don't see how that works either, because you know... opposite side of the planet and all that.

There he goes again. There's nothing in the FTA about Labour mobility. There might be something in the future:

In a statement, Ardern announced New Zealand and the UK have committed to a "mobility dialogue" outside of the FTA that will consider how people-to-people links can be deepened even further

Then when you look at this "mobility dialogue" all it is is talks to extend the holiday work visa thing that already exists. So two-tenths of fuck all, not even agreed and Boris is selling it like Free Movement of Labour.

 

[Aoami]

British travellers rage as Vodafone brings back data roaming charges

Vodafone is the second major mobile phone operator to bring back data roaming charges for UK customers in the EU.

www.euronews.com

"David Anderson, another Vodafone customer, is equally unhappy with the changes. He feels it's part of a wider pattern of additional charges and bureaucracy making it harder for Brits to travel abroad.

"This isn't what Brexit is meant to be," he tells Euronews Travel, "I voted leave to make things simpler, to stop having to follow rules made up by someone I didn't vote for. This is worse than it was before."

Formerly a landlord, David sold his tenanted properties in the UK shortly after the Brexit vote. He planned to move to Portugal permanently when he retired in 2018, but didn't manage to sort residency.

Instead, David has been living partly in the Algarve and partly in Essex in the UK. He says he relies on free data roaming when he's abroad.

"This stupid roaming stuff is just another way we are getting shafted. I don't understand how these companies can be allowed to lie to us like this. It's unacceptable," he adds."

kek

 

[Scouse]

Education.

Whilst Brexiteers rightly said "stop calling us thick" - it really was in many cases calling a spade a spade.

It was obvious. But there were enough poorly educated people who simply can't grasp the obvious. The correct solution is to give them the tools to be able to spot bullshit.

 

[Tom]

I'd like to meet David, just to call him a dopey twat.

 

[caLLous]

Britain accepts EU judges’ role in Northern Ireland protocol

Britain has formally dropped its demand that Europe’s highest court should have no legal role in the controversial Northern Ireland protocol.In a key concession

www.thetimes.co.uk

Britain accepts EU judges’ role in Northern Ireland protocol

Britain has formally dropped its demand that Europe’s highest court should have no legal role in the controversial Northern Ireland protocol.

In a key concession to Brussels Lord Frost, the Brexit minister, will tell his EU counterpart today that Britain now accepts that the European Court of Justice (ECJ) must be allowed to interpret the protocol of the Brexit agreement.

The move represents a significant shift from the British side in an attempt to unblock negotiations on changes to the protocol, designed to prevent a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, which have been going on since October.

Frost will also tell Maros Sefcovic, vice-president of the European Commission, that Britain is prepared to accept a “staged” process, with separate deals on different aspects of the protocol rather than addressing it all at once.

Today the EU will publish its legislation to ensure that all medicines that are available in Britain can also be prescribed in Northern Ireland. The UK said it had not seen the final details of the proposals but believed they would be broadly acceptable.

The British moves suggest that Frost has backed away from threats to end the talks and trigger Article 16 — unilaterally walking away from aspects of the protocol. The government had set a deadline of this month for agreement, but officials now concede that talks will run well into the new year.

EU diplomats have welcomed the concessions as “realism” and see the court question as abandoned until later next year or beyond when the EU will be open to more substantial negotiations on the protocol. “It is about time that the UK got real,” said an EU diplomat. “The negotiations can now focus on the real issues for people in Northern Ireland . . . such as medicines.”

The government had denied last Friday that its ECJ demands had been dropped. At the time a spokesman said such claims were an “inaccurate characterisation of our position”. He said: “Any durable solution must address the full range of difficulties created by the protocol, including on the European Court of Justice.” Under the plans now being proposed by the UK, side disputes would go to an independent arbitration panel, with the ECJ asked to interpret matters of EU law.

Under the present agreement the commission rules on disputes and if the UK does not comply it refers the case directly to the court as an infringement.

The EU offered a similar model to Switzerland during talks last year on a “framework treaty”, which aimed to bring together 120 bilateral agreements between the parties. Under the model, the arbitration panel would have included EU and Swiss judges who would have discussed disputes before points of EU law were referred to the ECJ for “a preliminary ruling”. The panel then applies that to the case in hand.

If applied to the Northern Ireland protocol, issues such as food safety controls would be covered by arbitration instead of being immediately escalated to the ECJ as an infringement.

 

[Wij]

The long-predicted climb-down.

 

[Scouse]

Brexit: ‘the biggest disaster any government has ever negotiated’

Exclusive: British cheesemaker says Brexit and subsequent trade deals have cost his firm £270,000

www.theguardian.com