Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement
- Thread starter Wij
- Start date
Gwadien
Uneducated Northern Cretin
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 19,917
I think allowing animals to live in shit conditions then suddenly getting upset over how they're killed is utterly ridiculous.
Sure I'm reading from the Vegan bible, but it shouldn't all be dismissed and we should take lessons away form it.
My point is, lets ensure that Vegans can't go around filming the awful conditions animals can be in by preventing it, then we can talk about how they're killed.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 36,725
I think problems are addressed in small increments over time.
At the moment we've got so-so conditions for our animals, and "best practice" over slaughter procedures. Allowing slaughter procedures to be cruel is a significant worsening of a not-great situation and absolutely not to be dismissed in an idiotic "well, if bits of it are shit then it ALL can be shit" baby-out-with-the-bathwater fit of pique.
You're reaching desparately here.
Vegans do indeed have an argument about whether we should be eating animals at all. Totally accept that.
But what's "ridiculous" is to try to use vegans to justify an argument that it doesn't matter how animals are killed. Vegans would, rightly, be absolutely horrified that someone who can't say "yeah, I'm being a bit fucking silly in a knee-jerk defence of muslims" would try to use their arguments for the advancement of animal welfare to argue for the reversal of exactly that.
Gwadien
Uneducated Northern Cretin
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 19,917
I think you're jumping to your usual left wing accusation bullshit.
I'm not defending kosher or halal, I'm saying there's much more important things to worry about like their life rather than just the end of their life.
I'm fairly sure vegans would agree with me that it's funny people get upset about the deaths of animals but don't care about their life.
Although, that being said, the only way to truly have veganism across the world (and have a sustainable planet) would be to commit a genocide of animals (mostly cows).
Thats always a fun thing to talk about with my two vegan brothers
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 36,725
Give me a couple of minutes and I'll respond to this...I think you're jumping to your usual left wing accusation bullshit.
I'm not defending kosher or halal, I'm saying there's much more important things to worry about like their life rather than just the end of their life.
I'm fairly sure vegans would agree with me that it's funny people get upset about the deaths of animals but don't care about their life.
Although, that being said, the only way to truly have veganism across the world (and have a sustainable planet) would be to commit a genocide of animals (mostly cows).
Thats always a fun thing to talk about with my two vegan brothers
Job
The Carl Pilkington of Freddyshouse
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 21,652
Yes its becoming trendy to idiots.
Yoni
Cockb@dger / Klotehommel www.lhw.photography
- Joined
- Dec 11, 2003
- Messages
- 5,025
Food standards in the UK droped years ago - a few decades after the agricultural act was signed in 1947 which granted subsidies to farmers for output to protect farmers against imports. The reason I state a few decades later is due to my memories. in mid 1970s every now and then I would go with my mum or dad to a farm and pick up the meat for the period (half a cow, pig and lamb a few chickens) - we had two box freezers in the outhouse for storage and mum would cook from there until it ran out. I am not sure how long it lasted only that for a week I guess before hand we got soup & tripe (*vomit*)...... This stopped in the 1980s as the place closed down and then my parents went to the butchers - I never ever saw my parents buy meat from a supermarket, including the "new out of town supermarkets" or the cash and carry until much much later.
I also remember that chicken was not a daily food it was something we had for a celebration. It was large enough to feed 7 (5 kids) and tasted delicious - similar to a decent cornfed free range hen does today (childhood memories say it was still better but probably similar). By 1990s Chicken was not a celebratory meat but was very cheap and by 2000 you could buy a rotassarie chicken in the UK for 4 quid..... the only taste being the marinade they are cooked in.
I also remember that chicken was not a daily food it was something we had for a celebration. It was large enough to feed 7 (5 kids) and tasted delicious - similar to a decent cornfed free range hen does today (childhood memories say it was still better but probably similar). By 1990s Chicken was not a celebratory meat but was very cheap and by 2000 you could buy a rotassarie chicken in the UK for 4 quid..... the only taste being the marinade they are cooked in.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 36,725
Right then:
They're pregnant. The farmer comes down and checks them every day. I go out and check them more than that. This isn't an exception to the rule - this is generally how farmers in the UK look after their cattle.
The same goes for sheep. And because the UK consumer does care about animal welfare, organic and free range have become a major feature over the past decades - with campaigns over how chickens are kept bringing about an uplift in day-to-day legal requirements on their welfare. Campaigns that are still running, that have popular support.
Is it ideal? I mean by that - vegan ideal? No - of course not - because "vegan ideal" is that they don't get eaten at all, therefore there's no requirement to house or care for them, and no requirement to slaughter them.
But it's not "cruel". These animals are cared for and farmers feel that burden of responsibility.
That MUST extend to how they are killed. And this tosh:
It's not either/or. It's both. We care both about their life AND their end-of-life. And both are important.
The sheep in my fields get cared for for their whole life, up until slaughter, where we do it in the most humane fashion possible. They're not crammed in small pens, in small shitholes and ignored or poorly cared for. They live a good life before they're killed as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Unless they're kosher of course - where they're strung up by the legs and then they have their throats slit - without being stunned. - ALL Kosher meat is done that way. (Most halal meat in the UK is stunned first).
How an animal is killed is absolutely integral to it's welfare. And it's not less important than how it lives - end of life is part of how you live. Or we'd just chuck all our grandmas into a meat grinder, and wouldn't that be fine.
UK animals being kept in horrible conditions, about 5 minutes ago:
They're pregnant. The farmer comes down and checks them every day. I go out and check them more than that. This isn't an exception to the rule - this is generally how farmers in the UK look after their cattle.
The same goes for sheep. And because the UK consumer does care about animal welfare, organic and free range have become a major feature over the past decades - with campaigns over how chickens are kept bringing about an uplift in day-to-day legal requirements on their welfare. Campaigns that are still running, that have popular support.
Is it ideal? I mean by that - vegan ideal? No - of course not - because "vegan ideal" is that they don't get eaten at all, therefore there's no requirement to house or care for them, and no requirement to slaughter them.
But it's not "cruel". These animals are cared for and farmers feel that burden of responsibility.
That MUST extend to how they are killed. And this tosh:
Is a false (and utterly ridiculous) argument.
It's not either/or. It's both. We care both about their life AND their end-of-life. And both are important.
The sheep in my fields get cared for for their whole life, up until slaughter, where we do it in the most humane fashion possible. They're not crammed in small pens, in small shitholes and ignored or poorly cared for. They live a good life before they're killed as quickly and painlessly as possible.
Unless they're kosher of course - where they're strung up by the legs and then they have their throats slit - without being stunned. - ALL Kosher meat is done that way. (Most halal meat in the UK is stunned first).
How an animal is killed is absolutely integral to it's welfare. And it's not less important than how it lives - end of life is part of how you live. Or we'd just chuck all our grandmas into a meat grinder, and wouldn't that be fine.
Gwadien
Uneducated Northern Cretin
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2006
- Messages
- 19,917
You posted a picture of two cows in a a field and suggested that's the norm for the millions that are in the UK. :/
Job
The Carl Pilkington of Freddyshouse
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 21,652
Ive been through this before, but who is kidding who here.
Is there an army of religious expert slaughterers in halal abbatoirs slicing the necks of chickens at the speed of about 200/min, while reciting religious text?
Obviously not ..they just get some bored bloke to walk in once a week and bless a few things and because of that most of our meat is now halal/kosher bullshit.
They are stunned by law even if they are neck sliced in smaller , family run abbatoirs and these dickheads are arguing over wether its technically dead...just fuck off with your medieval bullshit
The problem is in immigrant ghettos where its going on behind closed doors, muslims and jews know where the real tortured meat is and put up with the half arsed stuff sold in supermarkets most of the time.
These are people who believe beasts are gifts of god and to be used and abused as they see fit.
Seriously these people are just fucknuts.
www.google.com
Is there an army of religious expert slaughterers in halal abbatoirs slicing the necks of chickens at the speed of about 200/min, while reciting religious text?
Obviously not ..they just get some bored bloke to walk in once a week and bless a few things and because of that most of our meat is now halal/kosher bullshit.
They are stunned by law even if they are neck sliced in smaller , family run abbatoirs and these dickheads are arguing over wether its technically dead...just fuck off with your medieval bullshit
The problem is in immigrant ghettos where its going on behind closed doors, muslims and jews know where the real tortured meat is and put up with the half arsed stuff sold in supermarkets most of the time.
These are people who believe beasts are gifts of god and to be used and abused as they see fit.
Seriously these people are just fucknuts.
The slaughterhouse rules: investigating the halal industry
It’s a cut-throat business but Muslim law decrees that meat must be killed according to strict rules. Now, as the animal welfare lobby calls for an end to the practice, Decca Aitkenhead investigates the halal industry worth £30 billion a year worldwide.
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 36,725
I didn't simply suggest that - I have given you an argument. If you don't want to address the points I made, then fine. I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect - we're increasingly going down the battery route in the UK - but none of that justifies increased end-of-life pain - which is the thing you "don't care" about.
Edit: What is the norm? The audited norm - not what vegans say the norm is.
I'm on the side of the animals - this sort of shit increasingly happening in the UK is disgusting. And it's happening on the Tory watch, ofc. (But either way - doesn't justify halal or kosher).
Last edited:
Job
The Carl Pilkington of Freddyshouse
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 21,652
Undoubtedly a good thing for all kinds of scenarios, but as usual non specific language, leaves it wide open for lawyers to prise everyone with an ingrowing toenail into it.
www.theguardian.com
New Brexit law will let vulnerable EU citizens apply late to stay in UK
Those with ‘reasonable excuse’, such as children in care, will face no time limit, says Home Office
dysfunction
FH is my second home
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 9,709
Undoubtedly a good thing for all kinds of scenarios, but as usual non specific language, leaves it wide open for lawyers to prise everyone with an ingrowing toenail into it.
New Brexit law will let vulnerable EU citizens apply late to stay in UK
Those with ‘reasonable excuse’, such as children in care, will face no time limit, says Home Office
Not really unspecific...or leaving it wide open.
Wij
I am a FH squatter
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2003
- Messages
- 18,404
Wij
I am a FH squatter
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2003
- Messages
- 18,404
- Thread starter
- #5,596
OK. Now we have Shatner I'm officially declaring that the remainers were right. Beyond doubt.
View: https://twitter.com/WilliamShatner/status/1316887009198141441
View: https://twitter.com/WilliamShatner/status/1316887009198141441
No-deal Brexit would be a 'failure of statecraft', says Boris Johnson – video
Boris Johnson has insisted he does want a Brexit deal to protect the economy and prevent a hard border in Ireland
Fucking. Liars.
Aoami
I am a FH squatter
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 11,223
No-deal Brexit would be a 'failure of statecraft', says Boris Johnson – video
Boris Johnson has insisted he does want a Brexit deal to protect the economy and prevent a hard border in Ireland
Fucking. Liars.
Waiting for them to tell us that no deal is actually a deal and that we outfoxed the EU at every turn which is why the negotiations didn't go well.
Job
The Carl Pilkington of Freddyshouse
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 21,652
I missed this one, youve gotta love those EU flag burning French farmers.
financial-press.uk
EU news: Furious French farmers pictured burning EU flags in outrage at trade deal | World | News - financial-press
French farmers drove tractors through town centres and blocked highways to oppose extra agricultural imports...
financial-press.uk
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Messages
- 36,725
Brexit: 'It was a wasted 23 minutes of my life' as Business leaders slam ‘pointless’ call with PM and Gove
The London Economic - Mr Gove described Brexit as being “like moving house – it’s a hassle at first, but you are upgrading”.- Politics
www.thelondoneconomic.com