Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

If you were an MP would you vote for or against it?

  • FOR

  • AGAINST


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Wij

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To be fair I don't think there should be religious exemptions for human genital mutilations either.
 

Gwadien

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Well, you fucking should.

There's a huge difference in animal welfare between stunning an animal and/or instant death and hoisting something up by it's back legs and slitting its throat to let it bleed out over time.

Religious exemptions should be banned totally. It's disgusting and indefensible - and ONLY there to satisfy people who're willing to turn criminal in defence of their sky fairy.

Just in case the above isn't clear: FUCK THAT.


As for the industrial-scale problem of wholesale food production standards dropping - that's a much more important issue as it affects all produce - animals and vegetables, and has cruelty/ethics/quality and safety implications across the whole food chain, rather than being restricted to a small subset of animal slaughter.

But still. Fuck kosher and halal. It's morally indefensible and at no point should we be allowing those barbaric practises to continue just to satisfy blinkered idiots.
I think allowing animals to live in shit conditions then suddenly getting upset over how they're killed is utterly ridiculous.

Sure I'm reading from the Vegan bible, but it shouldn't all be dismissed and we should take lessons away form it.

My point is, lets ensure that Vegans can't go around filming the awful conditions animals can be in by preventing it, then we can talk about how they're killed.
 

Scouse

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I think allowing animals to live in shit conditions then suddenly getting upset over how they're killed is utterly ridiculous.
I think problems are addressed in small increments over time.

At the moment we've got so-so conditions for our animals, and "best practice" over slaughter procedures. Allowing slaughter procedures to be cruel is a significant worsening of a not-great situation and absolutely not to be dismissed in an idiotic "well, if bits of it are shit then it ALL can be shit" baby-out-with-the-bathwater fit of pique.



Sure I'm reading from the Vegan bible, but it shouldn't all be dismissed and we should take lessons away form it.

My point is, lets ensure that Vegans can't go around filming the awful conditions animals can be in by preventing it, then we can talk about how they're killed.
You're reaching desparately here.

Vegans do indeed have an argument about whether we should be eating animals at all. Totally accept that.

But what's "ridiculous" is to try to use vegans to justify an argument that it doesn't matter how animals are killed. Vegans would, rightly, be absolutely horrified that someone who can't say "yeah, I'm being a bit fucking silly in a knee-jerk defence of muslims" would try to use their arguments for the advancement of animal welfare to argue for the reversal of exactly that.
 

Gwadien

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I think problems are addressed in small increments over time.

At the moment we've got so-so conditions for our animals, and "best practice" over slaughter procedures. Allowing slaughter procedures to be cruel is a significant worsening of a not-great situation and absolutely not to be dismissed in an idiotic "well, if bits of it are shit then it ALL can be shit" baby-out-with-the-bathwater fit of pique.




You're reaching desparately here.

Vegans do indeed have an argument about whether we should be eating animals at all. Totally accept that.

But what's "ridiculous" is to try to use vegans to justify an argument that it doesn't matter how animals are killed. Vegans would, rightly, be absolutely horrified that someone who can't say "yeah, I'm being a bit fucking silly in a knee-jerk defence of muslims" would try to use their arguments for the advancement of animal welfare to argue for the reversal of exactly that.
I think you're jumping to your usual left wing accusation bullshit.

I'm not defending kosher or halal, I'm saying there's much more important things to worry about like their life rather than just the end of their life.

I'm fairly sure vegans would agree with me that it's funny people get upset about the deaths of animals but don't care about their life.

Although, that being said, the only way to truly have veganism across the world (and have a sustainable planet) would be to commit a genocide of animals (mostly cows).

Thats always a fun thing to talk about with my two vegan brothers :D
 

Scouse

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I think you're jumping to your usual left wing accusation bullshit.

I'm not defending kosher or halal, I'm saying there's much more important things to worry about like their life rather than just the end of their life.

I'm fairly sure vegans would agree with me that it's funny people get upset about the deaths of animals but don't care about their life.

Although, that being said, the only way to truly have veganism across the world (and have a sustainable planet) would be to commit a genocide of animals (mostly cows).

Thats always a fun thing to talk about with my two vegan brothers :D
Give me a couple of minutes and I'll respond to this...
 

Job

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You could have simply said

The only people increasing animal cruelty are people requiring halal/kosher meat bullshit.

Many non muslim/jewish people are wanting this type of meat.
Yes its becoming trendy to idiots.
 

Yoni

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Food standards in the UK droped years ago - a few decades after the agricultural act was signed in 1947 which granted subsidies to farmers for output to protect farmers against imports. The reason I state a few decades later is due to my memories. in mid 1970s every now and then I would go with my mum or dad to a farm and pick up the meat for the period (half a cow, pig and lamb a few chickens) - we had two box freezers in the outhouse for storage and mum would cook from there until it ran out. I am not sure how long it lasted only that for a week I guess before hand we got soup & tripe (*vomit*)...... This stopped in the 1980s as the place closed down and then my parents went to the butchers - I never ever saw my parents buy meat from a supermarket, including the "new out of town supermarkets" or the cash and carry until much much later.

I also remember that chicken was not a daily food it was something we had for a celebration. It was large enough to feed 7 (5 kids) and tasted delicious - similar to a decent cornfed free range hen does today (childhood memories say it was still better but probably similar). By 1990s Chicken was not a celebratory meat but was very cheap and by 2000 you could buy a rotassarie chicken in the UK for 4 quid..... the only taste being the marinade they are cooked in.
 

Scouse

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Right then:
UK animals being kept in horrible conditions, about 5 minutes ago:
cows.jpg

They're pregnant. The farmer comes down and checks them every day. I go out and check them more than that. This isn't an exception to the rule - this is generally how farmers in the UK look after their cattle.

The same goes for sheep. And because the UK consumer does care about animal welfare, organic and free range have become a major feature over the past decades - with campaigns over how chickens are kept bringing about an uplift in day-to-day legal requirements on their welfare. Campaigns that are still running, that have popular support.

Is it ideal? I mean by that - vegan ideal? No - of course not - because "vegan ideal" is that they don't get eaten at all, therefore there's no requirement to house or care for them, and no requirement to slaughter them.

But it's not "cruel". These animals are cared for and farmers feel that burden of responsibility.


That MUST extend to how they are killed. And this tosh:
I'm not defending kosher or halal, I'm saying there's much more important things to worry about like their life rather than just the end of their life.
Is a false (and utterly ridiculous) argument.

It's not either/or. It's both. We care both about their life AND their end-of-life. And both are important.


The sheep in my fields get cared for for their whole life, up until slaughter, where we do it in the most humane fashion possible. They're not crammed in small pens, in small shitholes and ignored or poorly cared for. They live a good life before they're killed as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Unless they're kosher of course - where they're strung up by the legs and then they have their throats slit - without being stunned. - ALL Kosher meat is done that way. (Most halal meat in the UK is stunned first).

How an animal is killed is absolutely integral to it's welfare. And it's not less important than how it lives - end of life is part of how you live. Or we'd just chuck all our grandmas into a meat grinder, and wouldn't that be fine.
 

Gwadien

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Right then:
UK animals being kept in horrible conditions, about 5 minutes ago:
View attachment 42758

They're pregnant. The farmer comes down and checks them every day. I go out and check them more than that. This isn't an exception to the rule - this is generally how farmers in the UK look after their cattle.

The same goes for sheep. And because the UK consumer does care about animal welfare, organic and free range have become a major feature over the past decades - with campaigns over how chickens are kept bringing about an uplift in day-to-day legal requirements on their welfare. Campaigns that are still running, that have popular support.

Is it ideal? I mean by that - vegan ideal? No - of course not - because "vegan ideal" is that they don't get eaten at all, therefore there's no requirement to house or care for them, and no requirement to slaughter them.

But it's not "cruel". These animals are cared for and farmers feel that burden of responsibility.


That MUST extend to how they are killed. And this tosh:

Is a false (and utterly ridiculous) argument.

It's not either/or. It's both. We care both about their life AND their end-of-life. And both are important.


The sheep in my fields get cared for for their whole life, up until slaughter, where we do it in the most humane fashion possible. They're not crammed in small pens, in small shitholes and ignored or poorly cared for. They live a good life before they're killed as quickly and painlessly as possible.

Unless they're kosher of course - where they're strung up by the legs and then they have their throats slit - without being stunned. - ALL Kosher meat is done that way. (Most halal meat in the UK is stunned first).

How an animal is killed is absolutely integral to it's welfare. And it's not less important than how it lives - end of life is part of how you live. Or we'd just chuck all our grandmas into a meat grinder, and wouldn't that be fine.
You posted a picture of two cows in a a field and suggested that's the norm for the millions that are in the UK. :/
 

Job

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Ive been through this before, but who is kidding who here.
Is there an army of religious expert slaughterers in halal abbatoirs slicing the necks of chickens at the speed of about 200/min, while reciting religious text?

Obviously not ..they just get some bored bloke to walk in once a week and bless a few things and because of that most of our meat is now halal/kosher bullshit.

They are stunned by law even if they are neck sliced in smaller , family run abbatoirs and these dickheads are arguing over wether its technically dead...just fuck off with your medieval bullshit

The problem is in immigrant ghettos where its going on behind closed doors, muslims and jews know where the real tortured meat is and put up with the half arsed stuff sold in supermarkets most of the time.
These are people who believe beasts are gifts of god and to be used and abused as they see fit.

Seriously these people are just fucknuts.

 

Scouse

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You posted a picture of two cows in a a field and suggested that's the norm for the millions that are in the UK. :/
I didn't simply suggest that - I have given you an argument. If you don't want to address the points I made, then fine. I've acknowledged that things aren't perfect - we're increasingly going down the battery route in the UK - but none of that justifies increased end-of-life pain - which is the thing you "don't care" about.

Edit: What is the norm? The audited norm - not what vegans say the norm is.

I'm on the side of the animals - this sort of shit increasingly happening in the UK is disgusting. And it's happening on the Tory watch, ofc. (But either way - doesn't justify halal or kosher).
 
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dysfunction

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caLLous

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Shameless pricks, the lot of them.

What's the bet he's trying to get Barnier to cancel his trip so he can rock up to the negotiations alone and shout about how the other side didn't even bother to turn up?
 

Wij

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Shameless pricks, the lot of them.

What's the bet he's trying to get Barnier to cancel his trip so he can rock up to the negotiations alone and shout about how the other side didn't even bother to turn up?
No need to argue further. We were right. Case closed.
 

Job

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Safe to say we'll be having the same conversation July 2021.
 

Aoami

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Job

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Is there any point in this anymore?

Democracy is a sham..we get it.

Now just point me to my hive unit and fire up the thought gun
 

Scouse

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I missed this one, youve gotta love those EU flag burning French farmers.
Protesting ethanol production being outsourced to Brazil?

Well, I'm all for them protesting that. Good on 'em.

"Biofuels" are a bit of a shocking joke anyway. So we shouldn't be encouraging trashing the amazon for them.
 

Job

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What they meant was there was no way to undermine the vote for short term monetary gain
 

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