Politics POLL: Brexit Withdrawal Agreement

[Gwadien]

The NHS which apparently we are so proud of seems to be the worst health service in the big economies of Europe.
Its basically a nationalised industry and everyone else runs a private insurance system that the tax payer pays into while spreading put the premiums so all are insured.

Which would be fine, but not under the current political mood.

Because you know it'd have to be 'fair' which would mean that everyone would have the same rules, rich and poor pay the same amount etc.

 

[Yoni]

Unless personal taxation / nhs contributions from organisations increase the NHS Will never be efficient .... the German model is pretty nice, the Swedish model is also good but I don’t believe citizen’s or companies in the UK are ready to accept much higher taxation levels and increased contributions towards social costs .

 

[Job]

So now Corbyns celebrating because he can win with a split Tory Brexit vote.
Sooooo..the Tories could win if they take Farage on board and get him a seat.

 

[Bodhi]

Unless personal taxation / nhs contributions from organisations increase the NHS Will never be efficient .... the German model is pretty nice, the Swedish model is also good but I don’t believe citizen’s or companies in the UK are ready to accept much higher taxation levels and increased contributions towards social costs .

Ah that well known method of driving efficiency - throw more money at it.

 

[Bodhi]

Johnson misconduct case thrown out

Lulz.

 

[Ormorof]

Farage thrives on being an "outsider" he wouldn't do well in a party where he couldnt do whatever he (or his Kremlin paymasters ) wants

 

[Yoni]

Ah that well known method of driving efficiency - throw more money at it.

Is healthcare about efficiency.... I thought it was about helping fellow humans back to good health oO

 

[Gwadien]

Johnson pledges higher rate income tax cut

Who would have thought it?!

 

[Yoni]

Johnson pledges higher rate income tax cut

Who would have thought it?!

Expected but completely retarded

 

[Gwadien]

Expected but completely retarded

I do agree with Job though, Left vs Right politics is exciting compared to everyone trying to fight over the middle ground.

Hopefully with this clear move that the Tories are going to be in it for the wealthy, it'll give Corbyn more support.

But I doubt it, the establishment attacks on Corbyn are too strong, people will blame immigrants and the EU whilst we're getting shafted by a strong-right Tory government.

 

[Wij]

the establishment attacks on Corbyn

You mean people pointing out how shit he is and that any other Labour leader would be walking it by now?

 

[Gwadien]

You mean people pointing out how shit he is and that any other Labour leader would be walking it by now?

Nah.

I mean Israel bogging down UK politics at its most vital point, because they don't want to stop behaving like Nazi Germany.

Then intelligent middle class people not challenging it because they're scared they'll have to pay more tax.

 

[Wij]

Nah.

I mean Israel bogging down UK politics at its most vital point, because they don't want to stop behaving like Nazi Germany.

Then intelligent middle class people not challenging it because they're scared they'll have to pay more tax.

Conspiracy Theory?

I don't see Scottish people rushing to support Corbyn despite the fact that their tax rates wouldn't be set by him.

Keep searching for reasons why none of this is Corbyn's fault. You're bound to find a good one at some point.

 

[Gwadien]

Easier to call it a conspiracy theory and dismiss it than it is to engage it.

 

[Wij]

Easier to call it a conspiracy theory and dismiss it than it is to engage it.

I did. There's a million reasons why people believe Corbyn is shit. Blaming it all on Israel does kind of make you sound a bit Hitler.

 

[Gwadien]

I did. There's a million reasons why people believe Corbyn is shit. Blaming it all on Israel does kind of make you sound a bit Hitler.

Yes, there are a million reasons why Corbyn is shit.

But every time he suggests something positive, the media jumps in to remind everyone he's an anti-semite.

 

[Wij]

Yes, there are a million reasons why Corbyn is shit.

But every time he suggests something positive, the media jumps in to remind everyone he's an anti-semite.

I think you are thinking about this a lot more than most people do. Most people are thinking about the other reasons like (1 example only) saying it's far too early to think about a second referendum, 2 months after 'Brexit Day'.

 

[Gwadien]

I think you are thinking about this a lot more than most people do. Most people are thinking about the other reasons like (1 example only) saying it's far too early to think about a second referendum, 2 months after 'Brexit Day'.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's clear Corbyn supports Brexit, but if he acknowledged it, he would lose lots of his support base.

If he did support a 2nd referendum then he'd be more of a traitor to his country than he already is, and probably did it because of the IRA or Hezbollah or something.

Why does it matter anyway? Labour isn't in Government and there isn't an election for a long time.

I think it's a pretty fair tactic to bide time to see what the public opinion is closer to the election.

 

[Wij]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

It's clear Corbyn supports Brexit, but if he acknowledged it, he would lose lots of his support base.

If he did support a 2nd referendum then he'd be more of a traitor to his country than he already is, and probably did it because of the IRA or Hezbollah or something.

Why does it matter anyway? Labour isn't in Government and there isn't an election for a long time.

I think it's a pretty fair tactic to bide time to see what the public opinion is closer to the election.

Not that this is the only dumb thing he has done... but that is dumb.

More Labour voters wanted remain than leave and sitting on the fence displeases both. If he wanted votes he should at least get off the fence.

Wait and see is also a ridiculous thing for the leader of the opposition to do. If he made up his mind he could campaign. Actively seek to encourage people to support an actual stance. Campaigning for what you believe is right should be his job. Saying you'll wait to see which way the wind blows is pathetic. It makes him look weak and lazy. Which he is, for all sorts of reasons.

/edit: Also I'll remind you that he pledged to make Labour follow what the members want and the members overwhelmingly oppose his current stance but no fucks given.

 

[Scouse]

Labour backing remain pushes the exit-voters to whatever Ukip/brexit varient exists at the next GE.

I liked the idea of campaigning to change people's minds @Wij but you know that works only on small swings - and brexit is polarisimg and entrenching intransigence.

I think Labour stand only to lose votes if they "pick a side". Fence-sitting is keeping them in the running. And, lest you forget, being in power is their no1. goal.

 

[Wij]

Labour backing remain pushes the exit-voters to whatever Ukip/brexit varient exists at the next GE.

I liked the idea of campaigning to change people's minds @Wij but you know that works only on small swings - and brexit is polarisimg and entrenching intransigence.

I think Labour stand only to lose votes if they "pick a side". Fence-sitting is keeping them in the running. And, lest you forget, being in power is their no1. goal.

It is not keeping them in the running. They are being destroyed. NOBODY likes Labour's Brexit stance except blind Corbyn loyalists who make up about 0.001% of the population. Leavers think they are remainers and remainers think they are leavers.

 

[Gwadien]

Why does Labour need a Brexit stance if we're leaving in October?

If Corbyn announced he was for a People's Referendum, that would achieve fuck all.

But when it comes to next election and after Boris has turned the UK into a tax haven, it'll be far easier to fight a rich vs poor election if than Boris saying 'IF YOU VOTE CORBYN WE WILL REJOIN THE EU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111oneoneoneone'

 

[Wij]

Why does Labour need a Brexit stance if we're leaving in October?

That's a big assumption. We're staring at a choice between no deal, 2nd ref or another delay.

You think people will have any trust in Corbyn if his attitude between now and then is 'dunno, it was them lot, not me. I was sitting on my hands' ?

You think Corbyn will be able to ride in as saviour on a wave of popular adulation if we leave the EU with no deal and the country enters a big fuck off recession or do you think people will think fuck that useless old windbag who did nothing and watched it all happen?

 

[Scouse]

What else should he do?

He's been repeating the mantra that labour want to leave with a deal and a customs union IIRC. He's kind of picked a side there.

Other than that, if he veers more strongly one way or the other then he's either an enemy of democracy or a dirty brexiter no better than farage.

I actually think it's kind of honest - it's a shit situation, with nothing but shit solutions and a lurch one way or another means 50% of the country is aghast. Labour are actually saying "this is shit, we're going to try to do the best we can for everyone, and nobody is going to be happy" - which is kind of the case.

What should Labour do @Wij?

 

[dysfunction]

Get a new leader

 

[Scouse]

Get a new leader

He's been voted in by members. If this is just an "I hate corbyn" rant then it's no different than "I hate boris" or "I hate Rudd"...

 

[dysfunction]

Well if he is in a catch 22 position then the only way out is....out.

 

[Wij]

What else should he do?

He's been repeating the mantra that labour want to leave with a deal and a customs union IIRC. He's kind of picked a side there.

Other than that, if he veers more strongly one way or the other then he's either an enemy of democracy or a dirty brexiter no better than farage.

I actually think it's kind of honest - it's a shit situation, with nothing but shit solutions and a lurch one way or another means 50% of the country is aghast. Labour are actually saying "this is shit, we're going to try to do the best we can for everyone, and nobody is going to be happy" - which is kind of the case.

What should Labour do @Wij?

Face the reality that no one likes the withdrawal agreement and that it is the only option on the table and either support it or campaign for a public vote on whether to accept it or not. It isn't going to get through the commons without a public vote and being honest people who voted leave hate it.

The current Labour party position is a mess of confusing fudges.

 

[Scouse]

Face the reality that no one likes the withdrawal agreement and that it is the only option on the table and either support it or campaign for a public vote on whether to accept it or not. It isn't going to get through the commons without a public vote and being honest people who voted leave hate it.

The current Labour party position is a mess of confusing fudges.

It's the government's job to get the deal they negotiated through parliament. Labour is presenting their alternative.

As for people who voted leave hate it - I don't think the evidence backs up there's been much of a change.

 

[dysfunction]

But their alternative is equally rubbish or very badly put forward.