Out of the loop, so need advice.

[MYstIC G]

Chaps.

Looking for a new PC since I've not had one in five years and it would be nice to be able to actually play some PC games again.

To start, I'll be perfectly honest and say that I don't bother keeping up with the pc component wars anymore. I don't know which processor is hot this month and what memory is the shit, etc.

So, being a lazy fucker I hit the dell website (yes I know, I know!) to pull up a rough edge base system.

Basically all I'm after is:

1. 4GB RAM (minimum)
2. Solid Processor
3. Solid graphics card (Historically I've always gone NVidia, but no real preference)
4. SATA HDD (I've already got 2 x SATA in my current box and I'd like to just take one out and bolt it into the new cos it's got all the documents n shit on it)

Now I'd like you guys opinions on:

1. Is the Dell cop in your opinions?
2. What about the Dell is utter pish?
3. (last but not least) Recommendations for equivalent price point but build it myself.

Cheers in advance.

 

[Kryten]

Firstly, if you're going to use a 32bit OS, dont get 4gb ram. 3gb max. Main reason being, both XP and Vista will only use up to 3gb (2gb per application maximum) and the rest is just literally wasted. 64bit OS's still lack a little support driver wise but that has improved tenfold recently.

As far as Dell goes - I can't stand the people personally, the machines are normally fairly solid though. I don't think I'd trust them to build a gaming rig that I'd consider "great" though, not even for their "how much?" XPS range.

Processor, you won't be going anywhere other than Core2 Duo/Quads depending on your budget. Motherboards, the P35 chipsets (in the next few weeks we're getting a new chipset for DDR3 memory and the newer Intel processors coming soon). Graphics, AMD are still lagging behind and the only real choice is an 8800 flavour of your preference/budget.
HDDs - they're pretty much all SATA these days, but don't be fooled into thinking buying anything like WD Raptors is gonna provide a huge performance boost - the normal drives are getting quicker by the week for much less money.

 

[TdC]

Wobbeh, please, wait a year -or better, get an interim system! tbh I'm in the same dilemma, though my current system is like a tiny god. methinks, in about 12 months I will purchase what is now the dog's nuts. some C2 quad, 4 gb of fast ram, hawt gfx and a decent psu.

I notice that plenty cpu fabs are going threads > speed, quick ram > regular flavour and cool stability over all.

if I read your pdf right, you're going for efficiency over ubersuperduperpowah, so hang back behind the curve, imo, and only get a dell if they make it really worth your while (double ram for free, double ram for free and a free printer, et all, that kind of stuff). I have a dell screen (the 24" 2407WFP) and it's nice. I have never had a dell system, so I can't comment.

 

[Kryten]

Some of the trouble behind waiting for the "next" big thing is - well, you'll ALWAYS be waiting for the next big thing. As soon as something shiney and new is released, something else shiney and new is announced and it's even shinier and newer than the first one.

 

[SheepCow]

Some of the trouble behind waiting for the "next" big thing is - well, you'll ALWAYS be waiting for the next big thing. As soon as something shiney and new is released, something else shiney and new is announced and it's even shinier and newer than the first one.

This is shockingly true. You'll be waiting for BTX motherboards at this rate

 

[MYstIC G]

Well the waiting is just not gonna happen. The system I use at the moment is a £250 job I built to be a fileserver/entry into using linux whilst I got my "Gaming" pc. Eventually it shat on my previous PC so much that it just became my main box because I never put together the gaming PC!

So, as it's birthday at the end of the month and the company is picking up the tab (YES!) I'm definitely getting something.

I suppose the main aim of the box is longevity to be honest, this box has ended up being in seat for 5 years without it bothering me.

In fact it's only bothering me now because we've picked up some cheap dells for work (to take over from a couple of the impressive Compaq Evo's, which got ram upgrades and are now flying at AutoCAD 2007 like rabid beasts) however these relatively low end boxes are pissing all over my home system, which you always notice.

The 4GB ram is a must, because as things progress they always just take up more and more and more ram and historically that's the one component I've always avoided maxing out, however ram is fucking cheap atm.

Heading round to Chet's to chew the fat on things in a bit more detail now as it goes!

 

[Trem]

Heading round to Chet's to chew the fat on things in a bit more detail now as it goes!

Punch him in the fanny for me and steal some of his siters bra's please.

Cheers.

 

[throdgrain]

Some of the trouble behind waiting for the "next" big thing is - well, you'll ALWAYS be waiting for the next big thing. As soon as something shiney and new is released, something else shiney and new is announced and it's even shinier and newer than the first one.

Absolutely true. Wait a year my arse! Hes already waited 5 years ffs, apart from posting on FH I dount theres anything else he can do with his pc.

Meg: the intel duo cpus are very good, get one of them with a decent 8xxx NVidea video card and 2 gig of ram, that will be fine.

Dont buy anything pre-made by Dell ffs

 

[TdC]

hehe guys you're reading me wrong by my comment of waiting a year I was meaning to wait for Vista to mature enough for it to be a real option. Ofc G can go 4gb or more atm with a free unix or an apple product, but as mentioned above, atm Windows products will mess up in large amounts of ram unless you manage a server install, which misses the point of what he wants.

so, wait a year if you want 4Gb + windows, otherwise, do what you will.

(less drunk now hehe)

 

[Ch3tan]

Your basket

Pioneer DVR-112DBK 18x18 DVD±RW Dual Layer ReWriter - (Black) OEM £15.49
Western Digital Caviar SE16 400GB 4000AAKS SATA-II 16MB Cache - OEM £44.99
EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS SuperClocked 320MB GDDR3 HDTV/Dual DVI (PCI-Express) - Retail (320-P2-E815-AR) £167.99
Gigabyte GA_P35_DQ6 (Socket 775) PCI-Express DDR2 Motherboard £113.99
Antec Sonata III Piano Black Quiet Case - EarthWatts 500W PSU £67.99
Intel Core 2 Quad Pro Q6600 "Energy Efficient 95W Edition" 2.40GHz (1066FSB) - Retail £155.99
GeIL 2GB (2x1GB) PC6400C4 800MHz Ultra Low Latency DDR2 Dual Channel Kit (GX22GB6400UDC) £109.98 (2 No)
Zalman CNPS9500-LED Aero Flower CPU Cooler (Socket 939/754/478/775) £27.99
Sub Total : £704.41 Shipping cost assumes delivery to UK Mainland with:
City Link Parcel Next Day (Delivered Mon-Fri)
(This can be changed during checkout) Shipping : £10.95 VAT is being charged at 17.5% VAT : £125.19 Total : £840.55

The follow up suggestion. Bit "way too much" for my tastes, needs some paring back. Suggestions on a postcard please.

Luv, Meg

PS: Trem, need your address, mission steal bra successful.

 

[Jonty]

hehe guys you're reading me wrong by my comment of waiting a year I was meaning to wait for Vista to mature enough for it to be a real option. Ofc G can go 4gb or more atm with a free unix or an apple product, but as mentioned above, atm Windows products will mess up in large amounts of ram unless you manage a server install, which misses the point of what he wants.

Hi guys

TdC: I agree that Vista needs more time, and it's perhaps not as elegant as other solutions, but I think it's 64-bit support is fine depending on what you want to do. My new laptop will have 8GB RAM, but I don't think there should be too many headaches because the software I'll be using is compatible and/or optimised for 64-bit, the manufacturer (Dell, ha!) offers 64-bit drivers and support, and my few peripherals and games will all run fine too. So although Vista 64-bit is certainly not perfect nor suitable for everyone, I still think it's a viable option right now.

Meg: Given your situation, I can only echo what everyone else is saying. Personally I would wait until November time, but I understand your desire to buy now.

As such, Core 2 processors offer the best performance, as AMD are still in all kinds of trouble until they release some of their new products. Intel's quad-core processors are surprisingly cheap. They don't yield much peformance advantage right now (games and most applications are typically single-core, so it's really only professional applications and media encoding/decoding that notably benefit), but you may wish to buy one just to be more future proof. Also make sure your motherboard will support the forthcoming 'Penryn' processors (45nm Core 2 design), just in case you want to upgrade later on.

With regards the RAM, definitely go for 4GB or more. 2GB is the realistic minimum for Vista, 4GB is great (32-bit Windows will recognise around 3GB-3.5GB), and 8GB will certainly be future proof and helpful for demanding applications (like Photoshop and other design applications etc.). Like you say, DDR2 memory is very cheap right now. Although DDR3 has a notably better design, the real-world performance vs. cost doesn't really justify it right now.

For the graphics, I'd go for nVidia. Like you, I traditionally lean towards their products, but I think the high-end 8000-series genuinely offers very good performance for the money. AMD (née ATI) is certainly no slouch, but they seem to have lost some of their edge and focus of late. For example, AMD's top-end products have superior specifications, but this doesn't translate into a huge performance increase. One thing in AMD's favour is their Vista drivers: they're much more stable and mature than nVidia (who is still on the back foot). However, nVidia is slowly sorting their problems, and I believe SLI support just about works on Vista too.

As for system builders, I think the general consensus is that it's fun for enthusiasts to build their own system, and it usually costs less too. Personally I don't have anything against Dell, but their best lines are the XPS and business-class systems. These offer better build quality and better support than the Inspiron consumer lines (which many people have problems with, hence earning Dell it's dubious reputation). I think Dell's buying power means you can sometimes find a bargain, but obviously use your common sense when picking the upgrades. For example, Dell charges an exorbitant amount of money for 4GB+ of RAM (you could buy another computer for the cost of this upgrade), and the same goes for some of the other options too. However, you could always consider buying a reasonably configured Dell system and upgrading it yourself afterwards (I don't think Dell minds this, but certainly check the warranty implications first).

Anyway, good luck, and have fun

Kind regards

 

[throdgrain]

Just as a foot note, from what Ive read the quad cores run really hot, its the reason Ive stayed with the dual core so far.

 

[Ch3tan]

He's picked the energy efficient version thrody, so it should run cooler. I do not think he has any plans to overclock, and they run fine undervolted at stock speeds if heat does become an issue.

 

[Kryten]

I think Jonty already covered it but there's still relatively little difference in performance with dual/quad core systems in games specifically - but software is slowly coming through with optimisations for it and in the future this will be a good investment. Although you might not have anything that will be blisteringly fast because it's running on a Quad right now, you might in a years time. Sort of semi-futureproofing - and of course with prices like they are, they're a very viable option.

What I said about 4gb+ ram in systems is certainly only a worry in 32bit systems. I'm personally still in 2 minds about 64bit OS's (or so called 64bit) Windows - support has improved exponentially in the past 8-10 months (just ignore XP 64bit) but there's again little to worry about in performance terms - only what you gain from being able to use a decent amount of memory. Again, you can see this as a form of "speculative futureproofing". And of course memory prices are still cheap as chips, so certainly worth thinking about it in bulk.

Besides which, I keep hearing rumours and other titbits of information about price rises due to component shortages of varying types but I normally treat this information with caution until it actually happens. More than likely just a "marketing ploy" to get the more naive techies/gadgetheads dipping into their wallets earlier.

And if it helps regarding "what if I buy all this kit now and the next super graphics card comes out" - I've a mere c2d e6400 and a Geffer 7950GT - and theres nothing it'll even bat an eyelid at. So I can't see any of the Quads or 8800x series flinching.

Disclaimer : The entirity of the above message was typed with the abscense of a working 4 key. Not useful when talking of 4gb ram in 64bit systems. Thank moses for the keypad.

 

[throdgrain]

And if it helps regarding "what if I buy all this kit now and the next super graphics card comes out" - I've a mere c2d e6400 and a Geffer 7950GT - and theres nothing it'll even bat an eyelid at. So I can't see any of the Quads or 8800x series flinching.

Indeed, I have a 6600 conroe and 7900GTO and it owns everything I play or do.

 

[Embattle]

Well I got a new system in April and it is mighty nice:

Intel Core 2 Duo E6700
EVGA 8800 GTS 640MB
Asus P5N32-SLI Mobo
2GB OCZ PC2 7200
2x320GB Raid 0 HD Setup
22" Widescreen
2 x Sony 18x Dual Layer DVD Writers
Vista Premium

I personally bought this from MESH computers because I didn't find I could make it much cheaper at the time and the idea of a 3 year Warranty appealed although like most system builders the odd delay seemed to creep in and caused about a 1 week delay. Also I wouldn't buy from Dell myself because I found there PC's seemed a little overpriced and underspec'd compared to others.

Well having used it for some time now I can say it hasn't been perfect if we look at Vista and its using the sleep mode function, or letting the computer go into sleep, this would result in the graphics card not coming out of sleep mode meaning a forced reboot and while this has improved there still seem to be some driver, hardware and software issues under Vista even with some of the latest gear but Vista is nice.

I can also tell you that in my own case, judging by moaning, a few motherboards can be rather picky when it comes to stuffing a computer with 4 gb of ram so be careful and check support forums etc. In my own mobo it seems asus is updating the BIOS to provide better compatability.

Future processors are fairly secure in most motherboards you get at the moment, mine for example supports the 1333fsb versions of Duo/Quad so I'm about as safe as can be in terms of futre upgrades when looking at mobos. Intel Quad cores are hotter because essentially all they did was stick two Duo's together but it isn't something to worry about because the original Duo saw a considerable drop compared to the P4s.

To expand on Jonty's glancing comment on AMDs next parts (Barcelona) sadly the early versions don't seem to be turning out to be the product most people are hoping for and the argument about being the first true quad core is weak since the whole quad core argument is weak for the reason Jonty mentions.

DDR3 isn't that good, its entrance mimicks the entrance DDR2 originally had when it arrived where performance gain of switching is non existant at first but it will probably improve a lot just as DDR2 did after a while.

If you get a nice big monitor than I would go for the 640mb version of the 8800 just because the one thing that makes the difference between them is that at higher resolutions the 320mb version suffers.

 

[dysfunction]

I thought I had a sort of future of proof motherboard with a view to upgrading later on but good old AMD changed to AM2 motherboards

...yay!

Anyway I think Mesh are pretty good especially price wise. I tried buying components similar to Mesh specs but it seemed to work out a bit more expensive...

 

[MYstIC G]

Opinions please chapz0rs: MESH Computers - Award Winning PCs Since 1987

 

[Ch3tan]

Nope meg, memory is slow, graphics cards may be in sli config but you will get more performance from a single top of the range nvidia or ati card. Too many things are skimped on. Look at Tom's thread for a decent spec for a decent price tbh.

 

[Kryten]

Will agree, I hit "configure" on that site to see if I could ramp it up and how much difference it makes, but the memory speeds are all the same, graphics cards - best is a single 8600 - not quite going to cut it.

I suspect Mesh are probably falling foul of the same trap that stops Dell putting too much good hardware in basic systems - as well as packard bell, advent, pretty much all the OEMs - Heat. Twin 8400's aren't particularly warm but a single 8800 will get things roasty, to name one thing - and if you've seen the state of some of these OEM cases you can see why - and also why they're not allowed to call them "ATX standard" - because more often than not, they're not, and not able to disperse heat properly.
End of the day, they're only in it for the money, after all it's a business - and they'll be happy using cheap hardware to do it.
I side with Ch3t - go see Tom's thread and mull over the options there if you're happy building one yourself - if not it's always worth finding someone nearby who'll do it for you for the sake of a pint afterwards - hell, if I was local I'd do it.

 

[MYstIC G]

Having another stab

System Price Qty Total
Elite Q4 FX
System Base Price: £ 594.89
Intel® Core™ 2 Quad Q6600 Quad Core Processor(2.4GHz,8MB Cache,1066MHz)
Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium Edition
Digital / Analogue TV Tuner PCI Card
New MESH Midi-TowerATX Case + 550W PSU
PCI-Express Mainboard - SLI nForce 650i SLI(C55) - Intel Core 2 Duo/Quad-Core - ATX
4GB DDR2 667MHz Memory -( 4x 1GB )
500GB Serial ATA Hard Drive with 16MB Buffer
LightScribe Super Format 18x Dual Layer DVD Writer +R/-R/RW/RAM
256MB nVIDIA GeForce 8600 GT - DVI, HDTV, TV-Out [upg £ 55.00]
19" Widescreen LCD TFT Display with internal speakers
5.1 High Definition onboard sound card - 6 Channel Cinema sound
Logitech S220 - 2.1 Speakers with Subwoofer
Logitech Cordless Keyboard & Cordless Optical Mouse
Free Microsoft® Works® 8.5 + 60 Days Microsoft Office Trial
Free Cyberlink Video Editing Suite - 7 titles (oem)
6x USB 2.0 Ports (8x possible on motherboard)
2x IEEE1394 Firewire (onboard)
1x Gigabit LAN (onboard)
Multi-format Memory Card Reader (ATX)
Free Upgrade to 1 Year On Site* - UK Mainland Only (Repairline Ltd Warranty)

The above for £649.89. Comments please chaps.

 

[inactionman]

Looks ok, but can you get a 8800GT or a 3850/3870 instead? Much better graphics cards as the 8600 is poo.

Edit: Although looking at mesh's prices you might be better off getting the cheapest/nastiest card and getting a better one after market.

 

[Ch3tan]

mesh.... eww. If you really can't be bothered to build it yourself get me or shauny to once you get the bits. What mobo do they actually give you? You'll never use sli. Can you get it without the gfx card and buy a decent one at a decent price afterwards?

I'm sure kryten will have something to say about the case and its no brand PSU too

 

[MYstIC G]

*waits for abuse from Kryt*

 

[Kryten]

/me hurls random abuse

To be fair, when buying pre-builts, they're mostly as bad as eachother, and Mesh is certainly no worse than Dell.
Mesh OEM PSU's are normally FSP Sparkle anyway - their recent kit, shock horror, *isn't all that bad* and should certainly suffice.

 

[Cromcruaich]

Dont see the point of splashing out on a quad core. Your games wont run any faster than a dual core.

Also dont discount AMD for value systems. Granted the top of the range AMD hits around the E6600 mark performance wise and unfortunately only comes in a little lower on price, but go down below about 5600 and you get some real bargains.

Worth considering for those on a tight budget.

 

[Kryten]

Hate to say it Crom, but very wrong. Most decent games will make use of quad cores - especially the likes of Crysis, COD4 etc and even the Doom3 engine games (QWET, Quake 4 et al).
AMD shouldn't be discounted by any reason but it's still daft buying something that's already out of date and very underperforming for the cost. Only worth buying in a "disposable, need it now system".

 

[MYstIC G]

So, I've done it

Elite Q4 FX
System Base Price: £ 594.89
Intel® Core™ 2 Quad Q6600 Quad Core Processor(2.4GHz,8MB Cache,1066MHz)
Genuine Windows Vista™ Home Premium Edition
Digital / Analogue TV Tuner PCI Card
Aluminium ATX Midi Tower + 550W PSU [upg £ 30.00]
Performance Pack - OCZ Vendetta Heat pipe quiet cooling, Performance updates, specialist cabling [upg £ 59.00]
PCI-Express Mainboard - SLI nForce 650i SLI(C55) - Intel Core 2 Duo/Quad-Core - ATX
4GB DDR2 667MHz Memory -( 4x 1GB )
500GB Serial ATA Hard Drive with 16MB Buffer
LightScribe Super Format 20x Dual Layer DVD Writer +R/-R/RW/RAM
512MB nVIDIA GeForce 8800GT - Dual DVI, HDTV, TV Out [upg £ 155.00]
19" Widescreen LCD TFT Display with internal speakers
5.1 High Definition onboard sound card - 6 Channel Cinema sound
Logitech S220 - 2.1 Speakers with Subwoofer
Logitech Cordless Keyboard & Cordless Optical Mouse
Free Microsoft® Works® 8.5 + 60 Days Microsoft Office Trial
Free Cyberlink Video Editing Suite - 7 titles (oem)
6x USB 2.0 Ports (8x possible on motherboard)
2x IEEE1394 Firewire (onboard)
1x Gigabit LAN (onboard)
Multi-format Memory Card Reader (ATX)
Free Upgrade to 1 Year On Site* - UK Mainland Only (Repairline Ltd Warranty)

I pushed it up for a quiet machine and stretched the graphics card based on all you lot's advice.

 

[Kryten]

Can't at all see you being dissapointed with that system.
Its not a bad price really, paying slightly over the odds for a couple of the upgrades I think, but you could do a hell of a lot worse.
I'm not over keen on the motherboard (I'd rather have seen an nForce680 board for the spec) but importantly it's going to work - and a year or so down the line, should you decide you want a little more oomph it will be easy and cheap to find another 8800GT and run SLI on it - something you can't do on the Intel chipset hardware.

PC's have come a long way from the monsters we were putting together 5-8 years ago - the more fans we had the better, to keep everything cool as possible, and it's good that for relatively little money it's not difficult to make them as quiet as they can really get - no bad thing at all.

And of course, should anything go wrong and it's beyond the telekenetic or remote expertise of us lot on here (and yourself of course) you've always got Mesh to phone up and shout at