Olympocalypse 2016

[DaGaffer]

But the alternative is making it still about gender which opens the door to men who identify as women competing in the women's category.

No it doesn't. "Men who identify as women" can mean a great many things; but possession of a Y chromosome rules you out. Much as the transgender world get's their panties in a bunch about this; that's a pretty strong dividing line. While its possible for XX males to exist and indeed XXY males (Klinefelter syndrome), from a sporting perspective its a non-issue in practical terms because not only are they usually likely to be physically weaker than men, but physically weaker than women as well.

There's a whole separate thing about those who want to be called Loretta, but the sports rules are generally clear about that; you compete in the group you were born into.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

Caster ran a PB on the Rio final, but that time was still 2 seconds off a world record, and almost as much off an Olympic record. OK, those records were almost certainly drug fuelled, but it does put the advantage she has into some perspective.

 

[Raven]

I think people should be free to think/pretend they are a women/man/bit of both/neither/something made up/whatever. But when it comes to things like athletics it should be down to what you actually are, physically. Otherwise we could have infinite definitions and the whole thing would be come a circus, like toilets are becoming for the twatterati.

 

[Job]

She has internal testes that produce the extra testerone, regardless of her chromosomes, she has the hormones to build a male physique from birth.
It is quite obvious from a quick glance.
Seb Coe wants her out, but the next bullshit is preop transexuals, who can now compete in the womens race, seriously, men with dicks, dressed as women will be allowed.
They simply have to take hormones for a year, that wont completely revert you to a woman...they will clean up because a 15yr old local club male runner could beat all the women.

 

[ECA]

I think people should be free to think/pretend they are a women/man/bit of both/neither/something made up/whatever. But when it comes to things like athletics it should be down to what you actually are, physically. Otherwise we could have infinite definitions and the whole thing would be come a circus, like toilets are becoming for the twatterati.

From my understanding Caster is Intersex, ie XXY. As a result she has female genitalia, but a much higher level of male sex hormones than a normal women would have.
The effect is that she has a much higher muscle density - more similar to a man, and higher T levels allow for faster recovery.

I suppose at that point it's very difficult to say she can't compete or that it's unfair. 7 foot players are allowed to play basketball despite being fringe cases, I'm sure if you tried getting foot high shoes that somehow provided perfect stability for a 6 foot athlete to compete on the same level they'd be banned though......

It does kind of suck for the other female athletes but so what? We don't weight jockeys down so 6'3" people like me can compete on a fair basis, etc.

 

[Raven]

She has internal testes that produce the extra testerone

Citation needed.

 

[ECA]

Citation needed.

Caster Semenya's problem isn't that she's intersex

So what’s the problem? In 2009, following a 800m World Champion win, an 18-year-old Semenya was forced into taking a humiliating test to “prove” her gender. The results claimed she had hyperandrogenism, meaning higher levels in testosterone, and one leaked report suggested she had no womb or ovaries but internal testes instead because of a very rare chromosomal abnormality. The hormone levels supposedly bring to question whether she has an “unfair” advantage to her competitors for something she was born with, a biological fact she cannot change.

 

[Rubber Bullets]

Some interesting and possibly better informed debate here:

Intersex athletes in Women's sport

Better informed than me anyway.

 

[fettoken]

It must be frustrating to have no chance due to there being a woman in the lineup.

I somewhat agree with the sentiments of her having natural advantages.

Though, in F1, there are strict rules to how the cars can perform. There has to be some balancing factor.

 

[Job]

That's not even the issue, if they had a lower class F1 with smaller engines, some guy turns up and says, mines that class but it came with a bigger engine.
Everyone says, 'well, it is the lower class car, and it cleans up...I give up really, people are just hiding behind their own determination to be pedantically awkward.

Womens athletics is fucked.

 

[DaGaffer]

F1 is a pretty silly analogy as it is able to prescriptively control specifications, but, back in the day, what you're describing is exactly what used to happen; in the 60s and 70s people used to regularly come along with a different way of interpreting the same rules and gain a massive competitive advantage (like mid-engine cars with smaller engines that ran rings around bigger front engined cars).

But back on topic, start getting prescriptive about human biology and you're on a hiding to nothing; chances are there have been so called Intersex competitors before, and we just haven't known it, but now we have more information everyone's using it as an excuse about fairness, when it just isn't. Have you seen Usain Bolt? If that's not a biological advantage I don't what is. The men barely gets out of second gear to destroy the field, but that's just tough luck on his rivals, in exactly the same way as any dominant athlete can overshadow still really good, but lesser rivals. Back to the F1 analogy, Nico Rosberg must curse the day Lewis Hamilton was born, but unless they take the engine out Hamilton's car,* Rosberg isn't going to win a championship even with the best car in the field.

*which seems to be happening. Bizarre that a driver gets penalised for something that's already given him a disadvantage once.

 

[fettoken]

Indeed a silly analogy, and no clue what Job is going on about.

There's biological advantage, then there's people who's really really really good at what they do. A calling! Schumacher for example, and that Valentino Rossi chap. Many great downhill skiers that crushed their competition etc.

But do agree in comparison to Bolt and the others, definitely biological advantage, but with Semenya, sort of unfair advantage.

The reason for not mentioning bicyclists is you never know tho took boosting medicine or used that built in motor that charged while the cyclists went downhill and added power when going uphill.

 

[DaGaffer]

Indeed a silly analogy, and no clue what Job is going on about.

There's biological advantage, then there's people who's really really really good at what they do. A calling! Schumacher for example, and that Valentino Rossi chap. Many great downhill skiers that crushed their competition etc.

But do agree in comparison to Bolt and the others, definitely biological advantage, but with Semenya, sort of unfair advantage.

The reason for not mentioning bicyclists is you never know tho took boosting medicine or used that built in motor that charged while the cyclists went downhill and added power when going uphill.

Michael Phelps (the man has flippers), every Kenyan distance runner ever (increased lung capacity due to being born at high altitude), Jonah Lomu, all obvious genetic advantages.

 

[Job]

F1 is a pretty silly analogy as it is able to prescriptively control specifications, but, back in the day, what you're describing is exactly what used to happen; in the 60s and 70s people used to regularly come along with a different way of interpreting the same rules and gain a massive competitive advantage (like mid-engine cars with smaller engines that ran rings around bigger front engined cars).

But back on topic, start getting prescriptive about human biology and you're on a hiding to nothing; chances are there have been so called Intersex competitors before, and we just haven't known it, but now we have more information everyone's using it as an excuse about fairness, when it just isn't. Have you seen Usain Bolt? If that's not a biological advantage I don't what is. The men barely gets out of second gear to destroy the field, but that's just tough luck on his rivals, in exactly the same way as any dominant athlete can overshadow still really good, but lesser rivals. Back to the F1 analogy, Nico Rosberg must curse the day Lewis Hamilton was born, but unless they take the engine out Hamilton's car,* Rosberg isn't going to win a championship even with the best car in the field.

*which seems to be happening. Bizarre that a driver gets penalised for something that's already given him a disadvantage once.

No one can become Bolt without genetic engineering, any woman can become Castor by injecting testosterone from a young age, quite simply, future womens race lineups will all be high testosterone intersex racers, ordinary women will never make the grade.
Allready the first three in that race were intersex.

 

[Tom]

Greg Lemond too, for having utterly unreal Vo2 levels. And no, before anyone asks, he wasn't a cheater. His career was destroyed by cheaters.

VO2 max World Records

 

[Shagrat]

Greg Lemond too, for having utterly unreal Vo2 levels. And no, before anyone asks, he wasn't a cheater. His career was destroyed by cheaters.

VO2 max World Records

startling how many in that list are Scandinavian.

 

[DaGaffer]

No one can become Bolt without genetic engineering, any woman can become Castor by injecting testosterone from a young age, quite simply, future womens race lineups will all be high testosterone intersex racers, ordinary women will never make the grade.
Allready the first three in that race were intersex.

You do realise that Soviet bloc athletes were probably doing that back in the 70s and 80s right? There was a reason for all those East German shotputter jokes. And why should someone who has a natural advantage be penalised for the fact that other people might cheat?

 

[Job]

Those drugs are illegal, testosterone isn't, if you want to win in womens athletics from now on you will have to inject it from a young age, claim it's your natural level, and we'll be fielding a track full deep voiced half men...this is a good thing is it?

 

[DaGaffer]

Those drugs are illegal, testosterone isn't, if you want to win in womens athletics from now on you will have to inject it from a young age, claim it's your natural level, and we'll be fielding a track full deep voiced half men...this is a good thing is it?

Pointless because they'd lose to the cyborgs, Bolt clones and Cheetah-DNA chimaeras. Go cyborgs!

 

[TdC]

I'd pay good money to see a Cheetah chimera race a cyborg tbh.

 

[Raven]

So long as they were ridden by Usain Bolt clones.

 

[fettoken]

*of? Unless you really like Usain Bolt clones.