Off-topic Mafia #9 Game Thread

[old.Tohtori]

I'd unvote Golena rather quick, before it's too late.

 

[old.Tohtori]

And also believe me for once when i say it that i say it as a townie believing golena is one.

 

[Rubric]

And also believe me for once when i say it that i say it as a townie believing golena is one.

The trouble is your making the Thot/Golena theory even more likely now.

And i know your going to use a reverse psycology argument for sticking up for Gol but i think its a double/double bluff if you know what i mean.

Anyway i got a new cv to write, see you a couple of hours.

 

[Golena]

And i know your going to use a reverse psycology argument for sticking up for Gol but i think its a double/double bluff if you know what i mean.

19 hours, 42 minutes.

I'm not sure to be honoured at this point that people think Toht and me have the balls to pull that kind of trick off, or offended that people think we would be that stupid.
Yes it would of potentially of put Toht in the clear if someone had blinked, except for the fact that with a doc and cop still in the game it wouldn't of taken much for the cop to investigate Toht and the town would of had plenty of time to do just that.

 

[Levin]

I'd unvote Golena rather quick, before it's too late.

Why would we want to do that if we believe he's mafia?

 

[Levin]

19 hours, 42 minutes.

What are you counting now? You have two votes currently. Four are needed for a lynch. And either way, the fact that you had four votes on day one for a bunch of hours only proves that you managed to stop the bleeding at that point, and stabilize the situation. Nobody else voted on you - hence situation was defused. You're trying to say it wasn't?

 

[Golena]

What are you counting now?

You managed to avoid answering my previous post quite nicely there didn't you.
In fact you appear to of avoided all the evidence, and the previous point you made pretty much entirely. Why because it fell apart?

 

[Golena]

Vote Levin

I think I now know who the mafia are.

 

[Golena]

So Toht starts each day by making me look guilty.

Then after some arguing, when I come up with some good points, he decides i'm suddenly innocent and shifts the blame away from me ensuring that I survive for him to do the same thing the next day.
Fantastically well played by him in my opinion and a deserved victory.

Or he's innocent and has seen something that Levin hasn't..

Now I don't believe Toht to be a far superior townie to Levin, after all Levin has had plenty of practice! So that leaves me with the conclusion that either Toht or Levin are mafia, or Levin is up to something, but I can't work out what that is at the moment..

There's only one small loose end to tie up. The fact that Rubric and Kirennia are so closely tied together.. That I can't work out at the moment. Hopefully Kirennia can provide an explanation when he finally turns back up.

 

[Olgaline]

kirennia is big Questionmark to me,
but in all honestly the only one I can seem to tie him with is you golena or maybe morph ? Now rubric tho seems constantly keen on pointing out that he thinks toht is innocent, He doesnt really explain why other than "he feels that he is" and dosent really elaborate on anyone els exept his chosen target for lynching.
I cant figure out why that is..or rather why he feels compelled to point that out time and again. but then in his follow up post and brings up toht/golena as a likely mafia duo.


keeping my vote for now.
and I dont think Levin and toht are a team, I just dont see the link exept in the voting pattern, but that has seldom prooven much tbh

 

[Golena]

kirennia is big Questionmark to me,
but in all honestly the only one I can seem to tie him with is you golena or maybe morph ?

You want to know why I voted for Kirrenia? Let me answer that for you.

I think Kirrenia could be considered guilty if Rubric is, but without that information he's not a huge candidate for me at the moment.

Both of them also only voted for one person on day 1, morphius. Now if I was a mafia member and came back and didn't read through 15 pages of posts, who would I vote for? Maybe the person that my partner voted for? It raised my attention, despite not being nearly enough evidence for a lynch.

Now voting for Rubric has been done, I applied the 4th vote to him and didn't really get anywhere, so I tried a different tactic. I figured if Rubric was guilty the most likely candidate to partner him would be Kir, so stuck my vote on him with very little explanation. I figured there were more possible partners for Kir than for Rubric so it made sense.
Now Kir refused to end day 1 until Rubric came back. Imagine my surprise when 12 minutes after voting for Kir and claiming he must be mafia with no reason, look who pops up defending him in a i'm not defending him way. Maybe i'm reading too much into it, but Rubric really does have a sense of timing doesn't he!

 

[Olgaline]

thats a very strong argument, and tbh I handt looked at it like that :S
the only thing putting me off on Rubric was IceForges comment #198 .

and also why wouldnt they have finished you off when he had the chance?
for me the only way kirennia makes any sence as mafia would be with you,
yet you are pushing for him instead of say rubric wich you just as well could have from your arguments pov, so for me this puts kirennia clear of suspecion atm.

The same does not go for Rubric tho "if it was a tactic" for him to stay silent, hoping that either kir or I would give you the final blow, so there is reason to support a theory that explains the lack of a final blow from him. but then that brings me back to post #198

 

[Levin]

Golena, for someone who believes so strongly in Kirennia/Rubric as a combo, one wonders what you are doing voting for me. Just trying to scare me away from voting you?

And those points you say I ignored.. please show me to them and I'll address them.

 

[Golena]

Golena, for someone who believes so strongly in Kirennia/Rubric as a combo, one wonders what you are doing voting for me. Just trying to scare me away from voting you?

From my point of view there's 2 options at the moment. My vote on Kirrenia exposed the information I wanted on one of those 2 options. I need some information on the other option, and I can afford to be wrong once more.

 

[Golena]

I'm also at the moment not interested in finding the "most likely member of the mafia", but in reducing the partnership options as I see them by as much as possible, since that's the towns best chance of winning at the moment.

Voting on the most likely mafia member gains absolutely nothing, since when I turn out to be innocent tommorow, what are you going to do then? Look at past games, the chances of finding the mafia today is still fairly small. What I want is the best possible chance of the mafia being found tommorow, so the more dirt I can dig up today the better.

 

[Golena]

And the situation with 4 votes was safer than it seemed, simply because Golena defused it with the dramatic "vote me off for the benefit of the town, laddies!" comment.

So how was my situation on day 1 safe?

You had several hours to vote me off. You actually voted for me at the start, and still had a vote to cast when I had 4 votes the second time. So why didn't you vote me off at that point?
If you thought that I might be guilty, why wait until now, day 2 to go for me and use the excuse that I was safe on day 1 because of a comment I made, that comment being the 3rd time I had 4 votes and several hours into that period? Did you not agree that you'd gain information by voting me off at that point, and since I was a mere townie that the information you'd of got would of been more useful than the very small chance to hit a member of the mafia. As it was that descision backfired rather spectacularly.

If i'm not in cohorts with Tohtori, why are you not looking for the reason why he said not to vote for me. If he is a townie, surely that makes no sense to you, so why are you not questioning it? If Tohtori is the only partner you put me with, why are you voting for me? If i'm innocent then does that mean Tohtori is innocent in your eyes? If it doesn't surely you learn more voting for him than for me if your wrong for the next day?

Sorry, your vote simply doesn't make sense, and for someone who was quite rationally looking at all the evidence on day 1, today your being rather irrational. I'm doing exactly the same, but gaining information from it. What information have you gained from today so far?

 

[Golena]

If i'm not in cohorts with Tohtori, why are you not looking for the reason why he said not to vote for me. If he is a townie, surely that makes no sense to you, so why are you not questioning it?

I'm going to put this as a seperate question to Olgaline as well. Surely if I was in cohorts for Kirrenia, you want to question what Toht knows that you don't right about now since your both townies. Or at least what his plan is at the moment?

 

[Levin]

So how was my situation on day 1 safe?

You had several hours to vote me off. You actually voted for me at the start, and still had a vote to cast when I had 4 votes the second time. So why didn't you vote me off at that point?

It became safe because of your comment. You defused the situation with it! You have to agree it would be a brilliant thing for a mafia to say. "I sacrifice myself so that the town can gain information." At that time, I did not believe you were guilty anyway, and that comment didn't sway ME one way or another.. but possibly it affected others who would have otherwise voted on you.

If you thought that I might be guilty, why wait until now, day 2 to go for me and use the excuse that I was safe on day 1 because of a comment I made, that comment being the 3rd time I had 4 votes and several hours into that period? Did you not agree that you'd gain information by voting me off at that point, and since I was a mere townie that the information you'd of got would of been more useful than the very small chance to hit a member of the mafia. As it was that descision backfired rather spectacularly.

As I've said a few times now already, I DID NOT think your were guilty yesterday! I thought Ch3tan was mafia along with Morphius and I sure as hell wouldn't want to vote someone off (you) that I at the time figured was innocent! Now, with Ch3tan being a doc who had been suspecting you, your strange wink-wink nudge-nudge with Tohtori and then your strange first post on day two got me thinking a bit further. I'd be a bad player if I couldn't change my mind about who I think is guilty.

If i'm not in cohorts with Tohtori, why are you not looking for the reason why he said not to vote for me. If he is a townie, surely that makes no sense to you, so why are you not questioning it? If Tohtori is the only partner you put me with, why are you voting for me? If i'm innocent then does that mean Tohtori is innocent in your eyes? If it doesn't surely you learn more voting for him than for me if your wrong for the next day?

I did question his comment about not voting for you. Read back. If you are innocent, then yes Tohtori may well be guilty.

Sorry, your vote simply doesn't make sense, and for someone who was quite rationally looking at all the evidence on day 1, today your being rather irrational. I'm doing exactly the same, but gaining information from it. What information have you gained from today so far?

I understand why you see me as rational on day 1 and irrational now. I defended you then. Now I am voting on you.

 

[Golena]

thats a very strong argument, and tbh I handt looked at it like that :S
the only thing putting me off on Rubric was IceForges comment #198 .

and also why wouldnt they have finished you off when he had the chance?

Post 198 is indeed puzzling, and although there's something saying that using Iceforge's comments there is somehow cheating, it would be foolish not to look at all the evidence available I guess.

I can say, however, that at the moment it does not appear to be the case

Now why would Iceforge give Rubric so long before replacing him. From this it looks very much like Rubric hadn't got in contact with him, although i'm aware that Iceforge is probably very good at choosing his words carefully, lets assume however that Rubic was really away at this point. The fact that he was mafia would also explain why he didn't replace Rubric under the assumption that I was working off, that having got a townie roll he walked away in a strop like many people have in the past. That means Rubric couldn't of voted me off.
Now Kirrenia is a fairly experienced player here, and the obvious thing to do is keep around those people who look guilty but arn't since they provide by far the best cover on following days. From his point of view either I survive or he has no part in the hanging. From a mafia point of view that's a fairly strong position to be in at the end of day 1.

for me the only way kirennia makes any sence as mafia would be with you,
yet you are pushing for him instead of say rubric wich you just as well could have from your arguments pov, so for me this puts kirennia clear of suspecion atm.

I pushed for Kirrenia, mainly because I don't see a natural partner for Rubric other than Kirrenia. This means that vote made sense on 2 counts.

I was hoping i'd force Kirrenia into responding on it, he's been very quiet so far and i'm not going to expose him if he doesn't talk, but also that any response to it from his partner would give me an indication of who other than Rubric might be linked with him. I left my reasoning as vague as humanly possible, to give his partner something to complain about as well.
Rubric responding would of been better evidence also in my view. If I vote for Rubric and he responds like he did, well that's defending yourself and not really any obvious sign of guilt. If I vote on his potential partner and get that response it tells me more. I'd already voted for Rubric and not seen Kirrenia flinch, so I figured trying the same tactic a second time wasn't going to get a different response and that Kirrenia was sensible enough to stay quiet in that circumstance.

The same does not go for Rubric tho "if it was a tactic" for him to stay silent, hoping that either kir or I would give you the final blow, so there is reason to support a theory that explains the lack of a final blow from him. but then that brings me back to post #198

To my mind post 198 helps back up his argument that he was actually away. If he did have a mafia roll, it might well explain Iceforge's patience with him however since the theory that he wasn't playing because he was given a roll that he didn't want to play (townie) doesn't really hold up.


Now i'm not voting for either of them at the moment, why? Well if I vote for one of them and they turn out to be innocent i'm still no closer to finding who the mafia is from the remaining members. So before I vote one of them off on strong evidence I want to gain more information on the other members. It's far easier to do that before tommorow, when it's got to be absolutely right, and you can't make speculative votes nearly as easily, since 1 wrong vote means the mafia insta win. If the person you vote for tonight turns out to be innocent, you need a plan B. Currently that's what i'm investigating.

 

[Golena]

It became safe because of your comment. You defused the situation with it! You have to agree it would be a brilliant thing for a mafia to say. "I sacrifice myself so that the town can gain information." At that time, I did not believe you were guilty anyway, and that comment didn't sway ME one way or another.. but possibly it affected others who would have otherwise voted on you.

Your right that maybe I difused the situation with it. What I want an answer to is why Toht would of left me hanging out to dry for 10 hours and 14 posts before that point if we were mafia buddies. Do you not agree that if someone had voted for me (any of the 4) and we had been in cohort we would of lost the game right there? Toht had left me hanging on 4 votes once, if we were in partnership, why would he himself then put me back in that position a third time, what would we gain from that as a mafia duo, given we already had the argument that he had left me there hanging on the second occasion?

I thought Ch3tan was mafia along with Morphius and I sure as hell wouldn't want to vote someone off (you) that I at the time figured was innocent!

You wouldn't want to vote off someone on day 1 who you thought got you the most informtion from that day, but instead wanted to go after a flimsy hunch of someone you thought might possibly be mafia even knowing the odds of getting that lynch right? Well since that approach worked so well for you yesterday then going with the same approach today makes sense your right!

I'd be a bad player if I couldn't change my mind about who I think is guilty.

That's not the point here however.

I did question his comment about not voting for you. Read back. If you are innocent, then yes Tohtori may well be guilty.

Again you side stepped the point. You questioned his comment about not voting for me, have no answer and have now dismissed it. Can you come up with one, just one argument about why Toht if he's a townie would do what he's currently doing? That means you've either missed something or Toht is guilty. Now instead of voting for Toht to find out if he is guilty, your going to hang me. When you find out i'm innocent do you know if you missed something or if Toht is guilty, nope. If you hang Toht then you know if he's innocent that you did miss something and if he's guilty that you didn't.

It's your attitude towards voting for the one of us that you think has acted most guilty, instead of the one that tells you the most information that means i'm going to continue stating this..

I understand why you see me as rational on day 1 and irrational now. I defended you then. Now I am voting on you.

But please continue believing that it's because you have your vote on me, and not because your doing something that makes no sense. Other people might just buy that argument after all. I'm not that stupid.

But to give you some time to think about it, here you go.

unvote

 

[Golena]

As a better question for Levin.

If you vote me off as your most likely mafia.. when Iceforge points out that i'm innocent, what do you do tommorow?

When you've got an answer for that and it gives you more than a complete shot in the dark then i'll accept you're not just waving your arms about in a pointless fashion. Think about it for a second, even if you don't want to post it, because tommorow you don't get to have any kind of second chance at being wrong or really push people for information with speculative votes.

 

[Rubric]

So to cut a long story short Gol, you think i am guilty because of my dodgy power supply.

I was prodded according to my inbox at 3rd June 2008, 02:27 PM and was given 48 hours to respond. I am sure i would not have given me any longer than that if i had been mafia scum.

I replace my power supply on the night of the 4th I logged in to find the above prompt. I responded to Ice at 4th June 2008, 10:36 PM and then went to read the thread. WHen i arrived i found the noose being tied so went with gut feelings based on my quick read of the thread.

Now Golena you could be innocent but really you have done nothing but incriminate yourself to me so far. I do now believe you are in league with Thot or possible still Morphius who has been very quiet since i maybe rumbled him last time round.

As for the fact that me and Kir voted for the same person, (not the innocent the rest of you voted for) proves nothing. If i was mafia i would certainly not be stupid enough to vote the same way as my partner particularly if we were the only people going for that person. If i got a mafia role the tactic i was planning on employing for this game was to vote for my partner on day one if i could have got away with it without a lynching so as to divert suspicion from them or me if either of us was ever lynched. But alas i didn't and now i have ruined it if i ever do get a mafia role

 

[Levin]

Sorry for my lack of posting today.. it's been a busy day at work and it's not looking like it'll get better after lunch. If nothing else, I will post when I get home.

 

[old.Tohtori]

My lack of posting comes from what Olgaline said:

What's the point.

If my points get ignored, if my answers get told "you didn't answer" and if people can't decide one way or other about me because of previous games, i might as well just vote and stay silent right?

And no it's not "throwing toys", look abck at rpevious pages and notice it yourself. Really LOOK at it.

Why does Olgaline keep avoiding everything with the best "defense" being "what's the point in answering".

 

[kirennia]

vote:morphius

I still beleive he's fishy from that 4th vote in the first day; no matter how I look at others posts, there has still not been anything I can see as being as dodgy as that action from any other player. Putting the second to last vote on someone and then saying you're not sure about it because it looks like someonelse is going to retract... can't ignore that as a lead.

The problem of trying to look for mafia duos instead of single mafia people is that no mafia team would be silly enough to leave ties to each other in tactical voting; it's more a case of looking for people who are distancing themselves from each other. I'm currently looking at both morphius and tohtori as the duo. Maybe my memory isn't serving me right but I can't remember them talking about each other/together at all and tohtoris sporadic commenting is making me question him almost as much as morphius.

 

[Olgaline]

No toht I'm not avioding you, I'm Ignoring you, there's a clear difference.
I know I'm innocent, and apperently your hell bent on me being guilty.
I have nothing to proove to you. and I do belive theres a high likelyhood that your guilty
so why invest more time into that ? Infact the only thing you have speaking for you atm is
just that, you dont seem to go with flow and you have no one backing up your accussations
wich is the only thing suggesting innocence to me atm. but that could just as easily be a conciouse tactic
other than that your action have actually suggested guilty tendancies to me.

Now Golena Yes I very much agree that looking at potential teams is important,
but who and why ? Where i started off with some clear ideas at the start of day2
I'm atm more indout than ever.

as for rubric I do actually belive thats the normal dealine he resived so I see no reason not to belive that
ofcasue that doesnt proove innocene, only truthfullness. but atm I'm inclined to belive him "for now"

what i need to do now tho is to write down my own suspected team ups,
and then go back and not just skimt the pages but read them post for post
and look at voting habbits ect and see if I can find any kind of consistancy at all,
Only if i fail to do that, then I'll start looking at individuals instead, wich is the only logical deductive progression for me at least.

 

[old.Tohtori]

No toht I'm not avioding you, I'm Ignoring you, there's a clear difference.
I know I'm innocent, and apperently your hell bent on me being guilty.
I have nothing to proove to you. and I do belive theres a high likelyhood that your guilty
so why invest more time into that ? Infact the only thing you have speaking for you atm is
just that, you dont seem to go with flow and you have no one backing up your accussations
wich is the only thing suggesting innocence to me atm. but that could just as easily be a conciouse tactic
other than that your action have actually suggested guilty tendancies to me.

And you have backing on yourself? No.
Ignoring me? *thumbs up* That's the spirit!
Hellbent? Not at all, compared to you even less.

I actually have reasons to vote for you, unlike...can you guess it?

 

[Olgaline]

And you have backing on yourself? No.

exactly!

 

[Levin]

If you vote me off as your most likely mafia.. when Iceforge points out that i'm innocent, what do you do tommorow?

When Iceforge tells us you are mafia, I will rejoice. Really, that's quite a silly question to ask someone who believes you are guilty.

When you've got an answer for that and it gives you more than a complete shot in the dark then i'll accept you're not just waving your arms about in a pointless fashion.

We are all flailing our arms about, and so far it's been quite pointless indeed. That's why I'm done discussing and just vote with what I feel.

Think about it for a second, even if you don't want to post it, because tommorow you don't get to have any kind of second chance at being wrong or really push people for information with speculative votes.

Vote-pushing for information is clearly not a good tactic in this game. We see what it produced on day one. With every game, we all become aware of more and more tactics and everyone gets less and less easy to fool, including the mafia. I vote because I think you are mafia. No other reason.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well, hell. This ain't going anywhere and i REALLY can't be bothered to start another "discussion" with Olgaline

Unvote: Olgaline
Vote: Levin

Let's see. He's on my olga+levin list so, either way.