"Nuclear Emergency"

[Bugz]

Scouse did you bother to read that link you just posted?

Only iodine and caesium are being bubbled off the fuel - which is not the same as the huge explosios that gripped Chernobyl. The levels of iodine and caesium found in Tokyo amount to no more than a CT scan IF you consumed the contaminated sources at regular pace for a year *. Iodine is harmful to children - AFAIK reports for adults are not statistically significant. One study reports that 4000 cases of thyroid cancer appeared in the 18 million under 18's exposed to iodine from Chernobyl. If we err on the side of caution and assume every single one was caused by Chernobly, that is a 1 in 4500 chance**. However, let's be more rigorous. In fact, thyroid cancers appear to be increasing and some claims relate to obesity and diet (as well as chemical-related reasons ofcourse).*** Other studies feel that simply better screening allows the smallest of malignants to be found, whereas before they may have slipped through the radar. **** It is thus very likely that all 4000 were not by Chernobyl.

I am very much neither here-nor-there for nuclear power as of currently but considering the aura of confidence you display, maybe you should make sure your sources actually support your claims and please, give us something to read that contains MORE THAN ONE SOURCE. Credibility = neglible otherwise. I'm assuming you have a degree, so it should be natural to you.

It's probably also worth mentioning that Debora Mckenzie is notorious for controversially-written articles. Take Iran showing fastest scientific growth of any country - science-in-society - 18 February 2010 - New Scientist, which is clever use of growth statistics & Sign in to read: Pea-sized 'bomb' could clear a city - 29 June 2002 - New Scientist, a title that is very misleading and scaremongering.

* Nuclear crisis: How safe is Japan's food and water? - health - 21 March 2011 - New Scientist
** Thyroid Cancer Effects in Children
*** While Overall Cancer Rates Drop, Thyroid Cancer Rates for Women Have Increased
**** http://thyroid.about.com/od/thyroidcancer/a/thyroid-cancer-rates-2009.htm

 

[Embattle]

Scouse did you bother to read that link you just posted?

Sadly quite a few don't

 

[Tuthmes]

YouTube - Pulp Fiction - Car Washing Scene

 

[leviathane]

Shits about to hit the fan.

 

[old.Tohtori]

Well i'm going to be a bit preachy, as i did on OT too, and ask this;

How does it feel to use countless lost lives as a tool to promote your own agenda?

 

[leviathane]

personally i don't have a problem with nuclear tbh. Apart from the obvious chenobyl n three mile island they've generally been pretty safe/reliable. (gonna ignore the nasty by product for time being). This whole unsafe shit has only occurred due it being hit by a fecking earthquake/tsunami. Now unless something major happens i can't see this happening in europe, without ofc human factors being contributed.

 

[Scouse]

As I said, I'm just reposting news articles, not writing them or making any claims of my own or indeed doing the research myself. Doesn't stop Bugz being a twat tho:

maybe you should make sure your sources actually support your claims and please, give us something to read that contains MORE THAN ONE SOURCE. Credibility = neglible otherwise.

Anyway. You're not using your brain much are you m8:

Scouse did you bother to read that link you just posted? Only iodine and caesium are being bubbled off the fuel

So "just" radioactive iodine and caesium then. The other nicer forms of matter have just magically decided to stay inside the reactor of their own accord? Amazing! Benevolant sentience in inanimate matter! How thoughtful!

Do you not think that the media is focussing on iodine and caesium rather than the plethora of associated materials? Or perhaps that you can only find what you are testing for?

Oh:

Yomiuri Daily Online reports that "many types of radioactive substances" have also been detected in seawater near the plant, including iodine-131, barium-140, lanthanum-140 and tellurium-132.

And, something from Reuters (since I'm under an obligation to only provide links to multiple-sourced articles and, whilst I cba doing that amount of research for posts on Freddyshouse, I don't have to go far to find alternative tales of woe).

Just to make another rod for my own back, I've picked a quote out of that article from Greenpeace. That should get some anger juice flowing:

Greenpeace said its experts had confirmed radiation levels of up to 10 microsieverts per hour in the village of Iitate, 40 km (25 miles) northwest of the plant. It called for the extension of a 20-km (12-mile) evacuation zone.

"It is clearly not safe for people to remain in Iitate, especially children and pregnant women, when it could mean receiving the maximum allowed annual dose of radiation in only a few days"

It's not getting better. Some could possibly read this as getting worse (since that's actually what's being reported by all of the news agencies and the Japanese government), but probably not you lot.

 

[Bugz]

Do you not think that the media is focussing on iodine and caesium rather than the plethora of associated materials? Or perhaps that you can only find what you are testing for?

You realise of course a lot of the media woes are for the exact reason that you can confirm existence of these mateirals in such tiny quantities. I've read the news stories of 'iodine from Japan discovered hundreds of miles away!' as I suspect you have [these stories cleverly omitting the fact the quantities found are in such tiny amounts that they mean nothing for human contact, just that science is able to discover them.]

And, something from Reuters (since I'm under an obligation to only provide links to multiple-sourced articles and, whilst I cba doing that amount of research for posts on Freddyshouse, I don't have to go far to find alternative tales of woe).

Just to make another rod for my own back, I've picked a quote out of that article from Greenpeace. That should get some anger juice flowing:

"Plutonium found this time is at a similar level seen in soil in a regular environment and it's not at the level that's harmful to human health," TEPCO vice-president Sakae Muto told reporters at a briefing.

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the United Nations nuclear watchdog, said the find was to be expected.

"It is reactor-grade plutonium which is formed into the reactor as far as we can see," IAEA official Denis Flory said. "It means that there is degradation of the fuel, which is not news. We have been saying that consistently for so many days."

The pressing concern is of course whether the rate of flow of plutonium will increase. But I suspect noone knows the answer but TEPCO.

 

[mr.Blacky]

while I am not anti nuclear power. I do have to say that I find Scouse's opinion worth to be listened to.

Without the anti nuclear station people's the safety of them would be damn worse!

 

[Scouse]

Getting quiet in this thread. Nobody want to comment on the Greenpeace quote?

Anyway. Quick post of a reuters story which gives a more human angle on the problems: 200,000 people may never be able to go home

Also, how it's affecting individuals (from same article)

A ban on the shipment of vegetables is already bringing despair. A 64-year-old farmer hanged himself last week after saying "our vegetables are no good anymore"

Lastly (and to kindly lob some ammo in your direction), radioactive iodine from Fukishama has turned up in Glasgow. That's quite an area of effect.

I'm quite happy that it's at harmless levels and I'm pretty sure the people of Glasgow know this and have signed the waver saying "please feel free to expose me to additional radiation that I would not otherwise have been exposed to - I don't care and often stand downwind of smokers"

 

[old.Tohtori]

Like peeps in glasgow care, they've got more alcohol in their blood then half of england and we all know alcohol repels all sorts of illness.

Hell, some radiated whisky might be nice

But like i asked earlier Scouse; how does it feel to use those 200k peeps misery to forward your own agenda?

 

[Scouse]

Nice that, as usual, you're ignoring any of the very serious points that have been made. As stated, I did deliberately mention the Glasgow thing to give a bit of ammo.

Anyway Toht. You've succeeded and I'm angry so I'd like to say this (like you don't, deep down, already know):

You're a fucking trolling twat.

But like i asked earlier Scouse; how does it feel to use those 200k peeps misery to forward your own agenda?

a·gen·da (-jnd)
1. A list or program of things to be done or considered

I (like everyone here) hang about in Freddyshouse to discuss things.

This is a thread about the nuclear disaster in Japan.

You'd have to be a moronic dog-brained **** to try to get me not to talk about exactly the sort of things that are of importance in a nuclear disaster.

I'm not going to put you on ignore like a fuckload of people have suggested I do but please, fuck off out of this thread

 

[old.Tohtori]

Yeah, usual /pram answer, with some banality towards a single word, completely ignoring the point and avoiding answering anything.

Using the disaster to promote anti-nuclear message is wrong in so many levels. My opinion and damn if i'm not going to give it, like it or not, but it is a discussion thread.

"a·gen·da (-jnd)
1. A list or program of things to be done or considered".

 

[Calaen]

Ycompletely ignoring the point and avoiding answering anything.

Trolllololololololol

 

[old.Tohtori]

Trolllololololololol

I do love these posts as people posting them don't seem to realise that they're being even less on topic with them

Not to mention a poor understanding of the word troll. I don't even know jamaican.

 

[Scouse]

Trolllololololololol

Yep. What sort of amazing tit would you have to be to say he didn't get an answer to his question when I quoted it and answered it in the post immediately before eh?

 

[Calaen]

Yep. What sort of amazing tit would you have to be to say he didn't get an answer to his question when I quoted it and answered it in the post immediately before eh?

Lies you were clearly just picking parts of his posts in order to make him look silly.

I'm more amazed at him accusing someone else of never answering a question.

 

[old.Tohtori]

It's really simple; if you believe that i'm just trolling(with your awesome mind reading powers), put me on ignore and that's that.

If you have poop on your mashed taters, you don't have to eat it.

Calaen; even if you're not good at poking a badger with a stick, you can still say if someone else is bad at badgerpoking

 

[Ormorof]

frankly i trust greenpeace less than the bbc, bunch of eco terrorist their message and info on nuclear power have been extremely misleading in the past and i see no reason why i should trust any of their "experts" now

i am following this blog, and the IAEA website for info

MIT NSE Nuclear Information Hub (http://web.mit.edu/nse/) | Information about the incident at the Fukushima Nuclear Plants in Japan hosted by http://web.mit.edu/nse/ :: Maintained by the students of the Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering a

On March 25, Japanese authorities reported to the IAEA that they had recorded the radiation doses to the thyroids of 66 children living just outside the perimeter of the evacuation zone. These measurements are important because the thyroid tends to accumulate iodine, and radioactive isotopes of iodine make up much of the radiation field being measured far from the reactor site. In addition, children are especially sensitive. The measurements showed no significant deviations from background radiation levels in these children, 14 of whom were infants.

It has been speculated that rising radiation levels in water surrounding Unit 3 is the result of a leak; updates about this leak will be made as information becomes available. Much has been made of this leak in the media, as Reactor 3 is fueled by a mixture of uranium and plutonium. However, measurements taken of the water in the plant (the water to which workers were exposed) did not detect the presence of either uranium or plutonium—just fission products.

This whole issue has been muddied up so much by the media and anti nuclear activists who seem to completely misunderstand, or have no knowledge of, radiation or how it works that it may take years before we actually understand or have a clearer picture of what has happened in there

(hell one Green Party voting friend of mine said the Earthquake itself was probably caused by oil companies as all the drilling they do in the ground disturb the tectonic plates and leave big holes underground!)

 

[Scouse]

Blogs well out of date m8. And it's quoting TEPCO press releases. Not saying it's shite tho.

I've been attempting to use New Scientist as they do tend to have a bent towards accuracy. New Scientist is also a pro-nuclear publication by declaration (though I still get roasted for using it).

Here's the latest: Caesium fallout from Fukushima rivals Chernobyl

The report is on data from the Japanese Science Ministry. Here's the quote (which should please you as they're using the IAEA as a reference too).

After the 1986 Chernobyl accident, the most highly contaminated areas were defined as those with over 1490 kilobequels (kBq) of caesium per square metre. Produce from soil with 550 kBq/m2 was destroyed.

People living within 30 kilometres of the plant have evacuated or been advised to stay indoors. Since 18 March, MEXT has repeatedly found caesium levels above 550 kBq/m2 in an area some 45 kilometres wide lying 30 to 50 kilometres north-west of the plant. The highest was 6400 kBq/m2, about 35 kilometres away, while caesium reached 1816 kBq/m2 in Nihonmatsu City and 1752 kBq/m2 in the town of Kawamata, where iodine-131 levels of up to 12,560 kBq/m2 have also been measured.

"Some of the numbers are really high," says Gerhard Proehl, head of assessment and management of environmental releases of radiation at the International Atomic Energy Agency.

There is some really nasty shit going on there.

 

[Raven]

Doesn't Caesium have a really short half life though?

 

[Scouse]

Nope. 30 years. Estimated 200 years before it's clear.

I sense a bit of straws/grasping going on there. It's bad shit

 

[rynnor]

Nope. 30 years. Estimated 200 years before it's clear.

I sense a bit of straws/grasping going on there. It's bad shit

That is a short half life - Thorium 232 has a half life of 14.05 billion years

 

[rynnor]

I'm quite happy that it's at harmless levels and I'm pretty sure the people of Glasgow know this and have signed the waver saying "please feel free to expose me to additional radiation that I would not otherwise have been exposed to - I don't care and often stand downwind of smokers"

From the beeb article on this:

"At that level, a child's exposure in one day would be less than one 10,000th of what they would receive from naturally-occurring background radiation in a day."

But nice scaremongering anyway

 

[Scouse]

I said when posting the glasgow thing that there was no health risk, was tongue in cheek about it and I've already repeated that since and you can see that from the quote you used. So, hardly scaremongering.

You're not turning into Toht are you?

To give you something real to post about, I'll requote:

After the 1986 Chernobyl accident, the most highly contaminated areas were defined as those with over 1490 kilobequels (kBq) of caesium per square metre. Produce from soil with 550 kBq/m2 was destroyed.

People living within 30 kilometres of the plant have evacuated or been advised to stay indoors. Since 18 March, MEXT has repeatedly found caesium levels above 550 kBq/m2 in an area some 45 kilometres wide lying 30 to 50 kilometres north-west of the plant. The highest was 6400 kBq/m2, about 35 kilometres away, while caesium reached 1816 kBq/m2 in Nihonmatsu City and 1752 kBq/m2 in the town of Kawamata, where iodine-131 levels of up to 12,560 kBq/m2 have also been measured.

"Some of the numbers are really high," says Gerhard Proehl, head of assessment and management of environmental releases of radiation at the International Atomic Energy Agency

Come on Rynnor. Spin that shit out.

 

[Bugz]

I have to laugh at the subtle direction this discussion is going & is probably a good indiciation of why the thread has gone quiet recently.

This isn't a discussion on the risks of nuclear anymore - it's a case of individual(s) trawling through media trying to find one or two points & then posting them and feeling smug about it. Failing to realise that without any actual conclusive points of the data and sources being quoted from, all this will become is a case of stats vs stats and anyone worth his salt will know that stats do not equal risk and more importantly, stats do not equal points proven.

It is pointless to argue in this way, as it has no baring on the wider situation.

 

[Scouse]

I don't read it that way at all Bugz.

I'm not disputing the levels of radiation and the effects (or not) on people's health. The graphics presented by others earlier were both informative and correct. As were people's assessment of my posting that radioactive material has been discovered in Glasgow - and is harmless.

You're in denial about the numbers, supported by the IAEA, in the post above. Nobody has posted anything to rebuff them. In fact, nobody is actually talking about them but me.

You're just going "stats, wah wah wah" the same way you were going "standards of evidence wah wah wah" earlier.

Please. Look at the numbers, tell my why they're wrong.

 

[Bugz]

I'm not in denial about the numbers but you haven't told me why I should be so worried about them in a context that magnifies to the risk of nuclear against all the avaliable alternatives

The fact you think I think the numbers are wrong is really the problem at hand here. Maybe I am being overly anal for a gaming forum but studying statistics for too long has given me the right to push down data that just does not have a wider context [as said above - in this case, it'd be against the alternatives for nuclear]. At least convince me that these numbers are bad since as I said, I am on the fence about nuclear, esp. with the developments of renewables in recent years.

 

[rynnor]

Come on Rynnor. Spin that shit out.

I cant decide if your serious or just trolling to be honest.

If your serious I have attempted to inject a little perspective so that you can regain a sense of proportion about this.

Tens of thousands have just died in Japan and hundreds of thousands have been displaced - yes the nuclear plant issues are a serious problem for the locals but they pale in comparison to the natural disaster.

 

[Embattle]

The nuclear problem is an issue, but without question it is the minor of the two although it has now probably had more media coverage because of the fear factor being played.