No rezzing, thoughts?

[rynnor]

The source of this, though, was a statement that MJ threw out in the comments section... He was musing that he might not even include res and asked for reaction. That was brought here, as well... It's been an interesting discussion, and very useful for getting down to some of the core motivations people have regarding this game.

I just think this will be a very different game with a lot of the flashpoints at player created structures rather than at npc keeps - if you think about it are people more likely to defend A. A border keep B. Their homes. Need to see how that all pans out before picking a res method.

You want a system that makes it actually possible to take a defended player town - not easy but possible. With endless ressing this seems less likely.

 

[Jairon Kalach]

I just think this will be a very different game with a lot of the flashpoints at player created structures rather than at npc keeps - if you think about it are people more likely to defend A. A border keep B. Their homes. Need to see how that all pans out before picking a res method.

You want a system that makes it actually possible to take a defended player town - not easy but possible. With endless ressing this seems less likely.

I agree, but my focus on RvR is really all around that objective based game. It's about a slow march for territorial control. However, there is a significant amount of the backers who only care somewhat about the objective-based game and just want to spend their time going out and getting good fights. Those two different play types have a tension against each other in a number of features.

 

[rynnor]

Those two different play types have a tension against each other in a number of features.

Just one of the many tension points

But it's a good sign that people feel invested enough to jump in with their ideas. Just wait 'till the class details come out for the real scraps to happen

 

[eksdee]

Those two different play types have a tension against each other in a number of features.

Certainly see where you are coming from but I really feel strongly that it's not necessary for playstyles to cause "tension against each other" with some smart implementation of various features. Off the top of my head, if 'endless rezzing' is a problem for the territorial/objective conquering element of the game, while it is seen as necessary for skirmish fights/group vs group then simply make the keeps/structures exist within some kind of bubble or a 'rezz exclusion zone' if you will where you either can't rezz at all or there are severe limitations to it. As I say, totally off the top of my head but it just goes to show finding an amicable solution to serve various playstyles shouldn't be difficult at all.

 

[rynnor]

Certainly see where you are coming from but I really feel strongly that it's not necessary for playstyles to cause "tension against each other" with some smart implementation of various features. Off the top of my head, if 'endless rezzing' is a problem for the territorial/objective conquering element of the game, while it is seen as necessary for skirmish fights/group vs group then simply make the keeps/structures exist within some kind of bubble or a 'rezz exclusion zone' if you will where you either can't rezz at all or there are severe limitations to it. As I say, totally off the top of my head but it just goes to show finding an amicable solution to serve various playstyles shouldn't be difficult at all.

That was what I meant on page 1 The only difficulty lies around player created structures being detected by the system as 'no res' points and ways this could be abused but I think your on the right lines.

 

[Jairon Kalach]

Certainly see where you are coming from but I really feel strongly that it's not necessary for playstyles to cause "tension against each other" with some smart implementation of various features. Off the top of my head, if 'endless rezzing' is a problem for the territorial/objective conquering element of the game, while it is seen as necessary for skirmish fights/group vs group then simply make the keeps/structures exist within some kind of bubble or a 'rezz exclusion zone' if you will where you either can't rezz at all or there are severe limitations to it. As I say, totally off the top of my head but it just goes to show finding an amicable solution to serve various playstyles shouldn't be difficult at all.

Oh, I don't mean that it's unresolvable. Just meaning that there will be problems that will have to be solved in specific ways in order to ensure that both play styles are accommodated.

 

[Tanos]

The more complex your game design is the more likely it gets exploited and the harder it is to balance. Both sides will have to adopt their play style to a solution that is the best trade-off, designs that try to please everyone typically fail.

 

[Boulderbolg]

Having the same idea some posts before i basically agree. What i argue is the "absolutly need for in-combat-rezz" for 8vs8/small man. As i said before, if game design allows you to negate/weaken spike damage and all chars have an improved surviveability you might have lenghty, funny fights without in-combat-rezz. Rejecting this from start on seems to dogmatic as we know little about class and gameplay design so far.

I see your point, but I think it is pretty realistic to think that if 2-3 DPS characters are assisting each other, and the target's healer gets interupted, that target is going to go down. Good 8 mans are killing machines, and if they had a hard time killing people in battle, I would expect no one would die in this game!

From a small group skirmish perspective, historically good healers generally can prevent a target from dieing for at least a few seconds even when the DPS train is on the target. However, that moment is very dependent not only on the healer's skill level, but whether or not they can get their heal spells off. If the healer cannot get their heals off, the game is over without in combat rezzing. With in combat rezzing they have one last chance to save their group. In combat rezzing in small group fights certainly brings a dynamic that would be missed.

 

[Tanos]

I think you are still stuck in the mechanics of DAoC. Following idea is just for demonstrational purposes. You give the healer a single target focused immunity spell. Now DPS train is no longer weapon of choice, you must find new tactics. Maybe mana on healers is a limited resource that makes the difference. Or sets of non-dd abilities for supression and debuffing, maybe combos from several classes and specs. Don't start to discuss the drawbacks of the example. If frontloading every soft-target in seconds is still possible in beta and there is no in-combat rezz, you may start to cry.

 

[Delavega86]

i think they should keep rez-ing to a minimum.
being able to resurect others often, even if its difficult, only helps the side that has more numbers.
removing rez, can help the side with smaller numbers, a little bit at least.
(that, plus having collision detection for both allies and enemies. no blob-trains tyvm)

 

[Genedril]

Unless the mechanics have changed greatly there was no 'rezz' mechanic in Eve and that didn't stop there being solo / small roaming gang / blob fights. You died and you took the penalty - whether that was travelling back to get a ship or being 'podded'.

That being said early DAoC rezzing wasn't so bad; It took forever to cast and healers took a huge mana hit for doing it. It was either that or you released and sat looking at Glasny forever and a day (before realising you forgot the pendant...). Later DAoC with AoE rezzing / lager mana pools and faster casts for healers made it less of a chore. Coupled with the insta port malarky the game became zerg to win rather than zerg purely for protection.

I can see both sides of the arguement and until we know the actual combat mechanics the arguement becomes largely speculation over something where we don't even know how the combat mechanics are going to work. If people are getting insta- gibbed then having no rezz becomes a pita, while if the combat is slower from a TtK perspective then the healer is more important from a death prevention PoV while hard interupts mean the rest of the group can relieve the presure on the current target. No rezz in that situation I wouldn't be against.

 

[Muylaetrix]

Those two different play types have a tension against each other in a number of features.

really ?