No rezzing, thoughts?

[Tanos]

Aha, DAoC did it great and worked for many people but we should not do it like that.
Sure we can (and must) have some new ideas, but we should also use the knowledge of 12 years of RvR. I know its not DAoC 2 it make sense as the craft system was horrible and PvM a real timesink but to be honest if anything left is the "mythical background" of the three realms at the end i would be a bit dissapointed.

 

[professor nomos]

Aha, DAoC did it great and worked for many people but we should not do it like that.
Sure we can (and must) have some new ideas, but we should also use the knowledge of 12 years of RvR. I know its not DAoC 2 it make sense as the craft system was horrible and PvM a real timesink but to be honest if anything left is the "mythical background" of the three realms at the end i would be a bit dissapointed.

Please do not set up a straw man about my argument.

I will attempt to reiterate my point. I never said we should reject what DAoC offered us. Rather if you reread my post, I noted that DAoC was a lot of things to a lot of people.

All I am suggesting is that we (the community) don't ask CSE to arbitrarily limit their design to only benefit one style of play.

 

[Tanos]

That is why i say: Don't remove rezz just to balance siege situations. Or just have in-combat rezz for longer 8vs8 fights. So we are perfectly on the same way.
I read many ideas about rezzing the last days, and very few of the "BSC" ideas where more than suited to one playstyle, DAoC rezz obviously was

And as i'm not nativly english: What the hell is setting up a straw men?

 

[boxfetish]

That is why i say: Don't remove rezz just to balance siege situations. Or just have in-combat rezz for longer 8vs8 fights. So we are perfectly on the same way.
I read many ideas about rezzing the last days, and very few of the "BSC" ideas where more than suited to one playstyle, DAoC rezz obviously was

And as i'm not nativly english: What the hell is setting up a straw men?

Straw man = argument spécieux

 

[professor nomos]

And as i'm not nativly english: What the hell is setting up a straw men?

"To set up a straw man" is how we Yanks call what Brits call "Aunt Sally" is rhetorical tactic whereby speaker B appears to have refuted an argument of Speaker A by replacing it with a superficially similar but unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"). Once the straw man is established, Speaker B can refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original argument.

 

[Strone]

no rezzing at all would be a huge mistake. it might (maybe) help the zerg gameplay, but would completely screw roaming groups and 8v8. 8v8 (or group vs group - no idea what group sizes will end up being) fights could turn into nothing more than a "first kill wins" dynamic, which wouldl lose the back and forth dynamic that made well-matched 8v8 (and 8vZerg) fights so exciting.

at the same time, making rez too easy/available (like gw2) is also a bad idea.

 

[Ogrelin Blodig]

I couldn't because it would screw over grp vs grp + it would feel like WoW all over again, you'd feel compelled to try and keep 1 resser out of combat as much as possible.

Never played WoW so I wouldn't know but if I had to choose between no ress and an out of combat one I know I would want the out of combat version.

 

[Mkilbride]

FFXI is my favorite MMO and this is how it worked:

Res took most of your mana. It took a very long time to cast, and was easy to interrupt. Said resurrected person was reduced in stats by like...75% for 5 minutes. I found this very fair and balanced.

 

[Tanos]

no rezzing at all would be a huge mistake. it might (maybe) help the zerg gameplay, but would completely screw roaming groups and 8v8. 8v8 (or group vs group - no idea what group sizes will end up being) fights could turn into nothing more than a "first kill wins" dynamic, which wouldl lose the back and forth dynamic that made well-matched 8v8 (and 8vZerg) fights so exciting.

Maybe you are just try to imagine what a DAoC 8vs8 without rezz would have been. In fact, we have no idea what a CU 8vs8 will be like. Besides that 8vs8 will not be the focus of design, but anyway. One could also argue that it is annoying killing the same person in one fight five times. At the end it is not about having rezz but about having fun.

 

[Jasilla]

Sure but I am pretty sure that making it just like DAoC will be a mistake. A large part of what made DAoC the game we loved was the way we each played the game. Whether it was 8v8 or relic raids, stealth wars or zergs, DAoC had the design flexibility to be a lot of things to a lot of people.

I'm sure I read that MJ said it's NOT going to be DAoC 2... there will be a lot of stuff from it that worked well or ppl liked, or general concepts, but it's a game in its own right and whilst building on the success of DAoC, it's not going to be a sequel/prequel.

 

[Jasilla]

And as i'm not nativly english: What the hell is setting up a straw men?

I AM natively English, but I'd never heard that before

 

[Ellya]

Hmm, what would be the point of the "burning corpses" idea if they weren't rezzable before they were burnt?

 

[Oshunsar]

thing here, all are already talking about 8 men gangbang as if it already is implemented...
what about a real RaR: everyone on his own depending on his eyes and the talks around him (in game voice chat?).
8 people can still stick together if wanted.
Again to rezz:
No.
He who wields a weapon will fall through one.
Anyone can come back from the place where he will be brought to (veil?) this time is the penalty already. Remember, no one really dies here is the saying.
And I'm in most MMO a side or main healer... rezz makes warriors careless - some say dumb.
Where do strategy and tactics will go with it?

On the other hand - lets have some rescue. GW2 has here an (sometimes annoying or faulty or...) option of last chance, that I like. Faint Death, rabbit retreat e.g. are also options. One hit should be excluded, so no one can claim UNFAIR on his death.

 

[eksdee]

GW2 is by far the worst combat system I've ever seen in an MMO, the 'death'/rezz system especially. Awful, awful game.

 

[BloodOmen]

GW2 is by far the worst combat system I've ever seen in an MMO, the 'death'/rezz system especially. Awful, awful game.

Some parts of the combat were ok but I agree, for the most part the combat system was rather dire in general.

 

[professor nomos]

FFXI is my favorite MMO and this is how it worked:

Res took most of your mana. It took a very long time to cast, and was easy to interrupt. Said resurrected person was reduced in stats by like...75% for 5 minutes. I found this very fair and balanced.

Because there's so much PvP in FFXI.

I can see one Rez spell working this way, I highly doubt all Rez options will be done this way.

 

[DavidH]

I never bothered with GW2. Bought the CE since I had great expectations. Tried it, hated it, forgotten it already. They didnt do much right tbh.

Oh, and I'm pro-rezz.

 

[Oshunsar]

Did i talk about the COMBAT system? Don't think so.

*sigh*

 

[Siber]

This is what I have been thinking:

What happen when a player die?
He/She enters the veil and becomes a spirit (or ghost). A spirit can move, see (with a very limited view distance... blurry?) and use spiritual abilities (attack enemy veilwalker etc.)(can also see enemy spirits but cannot attack them).
A spirit has few abilities (different races may have different spiritual abilities). A spirit is not very strong on its own but with a group of them (say 4-5) taking down one veilwalker is a possibility.
In addition, when a player first becomes spirit he/she is penalized with a debuff that prevent getting rezzed for 2 mins.

How can a player come back to life?
There are several ways that can be done.
(1) respawn at a main respawn point, a distance away from battlezone (very few of them in the world. for example, at safe area). A player can instant rez at these points despite having rez debuff on (the only exception).
(2) being in the veil, a spirit/ghost gets to return to live if he/she gets a kill off an enemy veilwalker (last hit enemy player).
(3) rez through healer rez ability, long cooldown (10 mins?) a bit long cast time (5+ seconds?) and some rez sickness.
(4) rez through entering/visiting sanctuary (placeholder name).

Rez through entering/visiting Sanctuary, how???
Well... first we need to know what a Sanctuary is. A sanctuary is a holy/unholy structure that can be built up by crafters (require resources).
Once built, it serves as a portal back to the living world for spirit/ghost. So when a player dies, he/she becomes a ghost. No friendly or hostile around, instead of respawn at a main respawn point, a distance away from battlezone, he/she can choose to journey back to the closest Sanctuary to get back to life. Sanctuary is different from a main respawn point in a way that a player in spirit/ghost form has to travel to (walk/run). Also, a Sanctuary does not have unlimited use. As mentioned, Sanctuary is a holy/unholy place and so it requires a different kind of resource (resource name perhaps Faith? perhaps Hate? depend on what type of Sanctuary is built and which race it is attuned to). In short, Sanctuary has counters, when depleted, players cannot rez there. It can also be able to be destroyed by opposition forces.

Sanctuary (& spirit/ghost) can be interesting because...
It encourages strategy and tactics (rather than zerg). It involves another type of resource that players must gather and manage. It doesnt have to be built in city/town but instead can be built deep into enemy territory.
It also offers variety. Lets say one of the race has 'Strength in numbers' as their racial ability. This ability allow one free rez every fifth use of Santuary (so the counter goes down slower). Alternatively, another race may not have any bonus with Sanctuary but its racial ability may enhance their potency in spirit/ghost form. We can even try an even more complex setup like all these races from the same realm worship the same god so they can share Sanctuary while the races from other realm worship different gods etc etc.

These are just basic idea but if they generally I think they can add quite a bit into the game. Thoughts?

 

[Siber]

i think about it some more.

if Sanctuary is much about keeping rez counters high. then the game will probably involve around which healers spam rez harder (to avoid consuming Sanc counter) win.
To avoid this, i prefer the rez ability on healer has counter too.

lets think of it like this.
Sanctuary A has 50 rez counters (through the mean of accumulating resources).
Healer X has 0 counters on his heal ability.
Healer X visits Sanctuary A and start praying (15-20 seconds channeling).
Each pray gives Healer X one rez counter (expendable ofc).
Max rez counter on Healer X is 3 (lets assume thats the amount of Faith one can have).
Pray 3 times, 3 rez counters on Healer X, 47 rez counters on Sanctuary A.

This should discourage healer rez spam?

 

[Tanos]

And if the VW kills you? Auto respawn? Spy ability? Nothing more fun then beeing killed a second time in the veil?
I like the idea of some building because it adds meaning to places and positions, but i don't like all this "veil-mini-death-game" ideas, i want to participate in RvR as long as possible and neither be kept ghostly in the veil nor spend most of my time running 15 mins back from somewhere.

 

[Clarus Ava/Hib]

You are strong as a realm, if you can help other realm mates. Normally we help as a Group all members and give them a "rezz". Totally fantastic to help Rangers and solo People to have fun in the open RVR Area.

Not all people have the time or want to play in a full frontier Group. Don't forget, that they also want to have fun out there.

 

[Boulderbolg]

Here are my thoughts on rezzing. I will focus on in combat rezzing for this post.

First off, we have to talk about the different types of rezzing. There are three that I can think of: Releasing to a spawn point, in combat rezzing from a healer, and out of combat healing from a healer. Each of these rezzing mechanics happen in much different circumstances and should be discussed separately (although with each in mind). Releasing to a spawn point is the last resort of the fallen who cannot be saved by a healer. I do like the idea of a crafted Spawn point, but save that for another discussion. Out of combat rezzing is usually the "clean up after a victorious fight". Out of combat rezzing should be a no brainer, especially considering the fact that travel will be difficult in CU. In combat rezzing is the miracle of life that can often turn the tide of a battle. Let's talk about in combat rezzing some more.

We have to lay the ground with some basic concepts that revolve around in combat rezzing. First off, we have to look at what exactly the problem that some people have with in combat rezzing. In games where sieging is a major part of the gameplay, if any type of rezzing is too easy it makes killing a single player within a zerg pointless. Either the zerg has to commit to killing everyone in the opposite zerg in one big push, or they might as well retreat. We have all experienced this in DAoC, Warhammer, GW2, etc, and we know that CU wants to get away from this. It would be interesting to allow the attrition of a zerg be one of the deciding factors in whether or not that zerg loses or not. It may create a slower paced and more cautious battle for zergs, but it would be different from what we see in every other RvR/WvW MMO out today.

However, we cannot forget that rezzing is a major "fun" component for healers and coordinated groups. I played in 8 mans mostly in DAoC, and also as a small group in GW2. In combat rezzing in small groups is an absolute requirement for an 8 man to succeed. If we want to allow for viable small group combat, we simply have to allow in combat rezzing of some sort.

One last basic concept I would like to talk about is rewarding player skill. This is more of a general concept for sure, but it can be applied to in combat rezzing. If in combat rezzing is possible but very difficult, it should be included in the game. We should try not to sacrifice a mechanic if it rewards strategic or skillful excellence.

As long as you are in agreement with my premises so far, now we can start to look for a compromise. In combat healing needs to be difficult during siege battles, but not impossible. If a skilled healer can pull of a skillful in combat rez where others have failed amongst an enemy zerg, they should be allowed to do so. We can now start to look at mechanics that will achieve this compromise. One such mechanic is casting time, and allowing for interrupting rez spells. Another mechanic is to make rezzes cost a lot of mana, but good players will always find a way around this. DAoC had these mechanics, but still rezzing in a zerg was eventually rather easy. Another mechanic that other games have tried is rezzing a dead body where the body lays and not at the healer's feet. This makes it at least possible to camp a dead body, but it is often still too easy for the rezzed player to escape.

The next logical step in making rezzing more difficult in zerg battles would be to make the rezzing spell have such a short range that the healer actually has to stand on the target's dead body. Rezzing in a siege battle then becomes very risky if the target's body is in the front lines of the battle. If the target is in the back line somehow (maybe the player knew they were going to die, so they had the forethought to retreat into their realm's back lines), the healer can obviously safely rez. This allows for players to take chances during a zerg battle, but only escape if they are good enough to do it.

This is a simple solution, and I think its a good compromise. What do you think?

 

[Muylaetrix]

still, monster rez for the win !

 

[Siber]

Here are my thoughts on rezzing. I will focus on in combat rezzing for this post.

First off, we have to talk about...

This is a simple solution, and I think its a good compromise. What do you think?

Very much agree with most things you put up there Boulder.

I like GW2 but rezzing in wvw (same as rvr) is something I do not like. It very much create zerging mentality.

as you wrote, in combat rezzing should be difficult and should be rewarding.

id also prefer that out of combat rezzing is even more difficult (perhaps require extra kind of resource?) in order to encourage people saving friends before they kill their enemies (in combat rez > out of combat rez).

 

[Strone]

many words

i like the idea of needing to be close (essentially in "contact") of a target to be able to rez. that's a very strong compromise. at the same time, because it would be relatively difficult in most in-combat situations, you would not want to make it virtually impossible with super long casting times, etc. still a lengthy casting time, but within reason.

 

[Tanos]

Having the same idea some posts before i basically agree. What i argue is the "absolutly need for in-combat-rezz" for 8vs8/small man. As i said before, if game design allows you to negate/weaken spike damage and all chars have an improved surviveability you might have lenghty, funny fights without in-combat-rezz. Rejecting this from start on seems to dogmatic as we know little about class and gameplay design so far.

 

[rynnor]

The problem with a lot of these posts is that people are trying to build Daoc 2 incrementally without the big picture of how things will fit together in CU - lets wait and see what they come up with first before we all try to graft on our favourite res mechanism.

 

[Tanos]

But we must have something to do and discuss about till we get more information?

 

[Jairon Kalach]

The problem with a lot of these posts is that people are trying to build Daoc 2 incrementally without the big picture of how things will fit together in CU - lets wait and see what they come up with first before we all try to graft on our favourite res mechanism.

The source of this, though, was a statement that MJ threw out in the comments section... He was musing that he might not even include res and asked for reaction. That was brought here, as well... It's been an interesting discussion, and very useful for getting down to some of the core motivations people have regarding this game.