Nice One Iran!

[crispy]

I'd say the single biggest reason for lack of peace in the Middle East today is that few control many and that the education there is poor.

If you get raised in the belief that it is your god given right to attach a bomb to yourself and kill innocent people, if you get raised in the belief that Israel is devil's forsaken country then there is not much room for peace.

I am 100% sure that Isreal and the presence of alot of foreign soldiers in middle eastern countries are not only the biggest reason for the lack of peace, but also a great contributor to religious fundamentalism since it gives a foundation for this.

Now read it carefully. I'm not saying Israel should disappear, but turning a blind eye to this reason by coming up with, sorry, bad excuses for the problem is really hurting alot. If you want to solve a problem you also need to know the root of the problem.

And its a very complex matter, because what options do you have when it comes to solve a problem of this sort? It wont get solved untill israelis and palestines live and let live. But Israel sure aint giving the other parties any reason to believe that they want to live and let live - so pulling back from occupied lands AND pulling foreign soldiers out where they dont belong is a REALLY REALLY good start :>

edit:

Thinking about it, but making Jerusalem neutral territory is probably also a good idea? Discuss

 

[tierk]

Tierk , I live in israel so I know what happened............

I ask you to put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians, picture the scenario i have painted for you in my last post and tell me in all honesty what would you do? How would you have reacted?

I dont think any rational human being can seriously tell me that they would react in anyway but the way they have.

Just because you have bought land in a country doesnt give you the right to declare a independent state. If we used that logic then we could let Bradford City become PakistanII?

How do you expect people to react to you when they are faced with stuff like this.....

Israeli Atrocities

.....on a daily basis since the day Israel has been created?

I know the Palestinians are not innocent themselves but what do you expect them to do, welcome you with open arms. You have forced four million people into refugee camps. The ones who have the balls to stay behind and stand up for there rights, are subjected: to road blocks, extra judicial killings, abuse, violence, the use of military weapons against civilians. Man the list is long and as Raven rightfully points out if it was anyone else you would have been dropped kicked out of the park.

 

[Chronictank]

Thinking about it, but making Jerusalem neutral territory is probably also a good idea? Discuss

It was for a while in the ottoman era but people always want power so it breaks down unfortunately

 

[Hawkwind]

I will try and make it as simple as possible for you. For starters it wasnt a case of the Palestinian wanted all of Israel but rather they wanted all of Palestine. There was no such thing as Israel when the UN decided in there infinite wisdom to place it in Palestine.

Imagine for a minute that one day someone knocks on your door in England (not sure where you are from so this is a stab in the dark) and tells you that you have been the subject of a court order issued in New York.

You must from now on only live in the attic and garden of your house and the reason for this was that there is someone who has a two thousand year old claim on your house, based on documents that are allegedly between said party and God.

Apparently his great great-(two thousand years removed) grandfather used to live in that house and now you got to make way for em as he had a contract with God allowing him to remove four million people from there righful homes.

Now after this event and after many a tussle and fight you find that the new owners of your house decide that you must also vacate the attic and garden and that you have to move into your neighbours garden as the new owners have decided that they need more room for there familly who are coming to visit from the rest of the world.

Now i wonder just how you and anyone else for that matter would react to such treatment. how would you feel to be driven from the home, without any form of recompense, that your fore-fathers have lived in for centuries.




Israel has been occupying Palestinian designated lands since 1967. These include the West Bank, East jerusalem and the Gaza Strip until recently. They should remove all settlements and hand back these occupied lands as a minimum. There is also the big issue of the millions of Palestinain refugees currently living in other arab countries, what should happen to them?

Israel is a law onto itself in this region, regularly violating other countries air space, carrying out extra judicial killings, ignoring UN resolutions, bombing targets both in occupied lands of Palestine and in its neighbours countries.

Such a one sided view, I can't even be bothered to argue with you anymore. You even argue the dictionary definition of sectarian is wrong and only about religion. Which, it is clearly not! Who gave the Palestinians the land? Where there jews there already there? Just brush anything you don't like under the carpet. As stated previously there were many mistakes made in Palestine/Israel and they go back further than any UN treaties.

Just can't be arsed anymore...At least the Arabs and Muslims in my office can grasp facts and are more inclined to look at more than one side of the story.

 

[aika]

lol tierk you're only stating the things that are convenient to you, like I said earlier, and ignoring a LOT of other things, really pointless to argue with you. And no one forced them into camps in the first place, also I served in the army for 3 years, spending a lot of time on the palestinian territories,often speaking with the citizens there. Most of them felt more secure when we were there, cause once we left, the Hamas agents came to their homes and persuaded lots of their youth to suicide themselves for money. Those who didnt agree were often sent threats to their families. I can only feel sorry for the all really innocent palestinians that just wanna live in peace and those extremists wont let them.

 

[Calaen]

Just because you have bought land in a country doesnt give you the right to declare a independent state. If we used that logic then we could let Bradford City become PakistanII?

Its not far off already tbh.

 

[tierk]

Such a one sided view, I can't even be bothered to argue with you anymore....

This isnt a argument and for a person who cba to argue anymore you still going on about........

You even argue the dictionary definition of sectarian is wrong and only about religion.....

Get over it man. I and i think pretty much everyone else on here as heard the use of the term sectarian violence in relation to such places as Nothern Ireland and Iraq.

It means something else to you great, though i have to say that i have never heard the term being used to describe the situation in Palestine today by anyone, anywhere except by you.

Who gave the Palestinians the land? Where there jews there already there?.............

They lived on the land for over 2,000 years unlike the Jews who were newly arrived, in numbers, in the very recent past. Between 1904-1914 there were 40,000 illegal Jewish immigrants to Palestine, this made up some 6% of the total population of Palestine. Jews like to make out that Palestine was a waste land and that noone lived there but its a lie. Registered land ownership by Jews was less then 5% by 1923.

Just brush anything you don't like under the carpet. As stated previously there were many mistakes made in Palestine/Israel and they go back further than any UN treaties..

What is this anything that you are on about? There was no Israel before '48. The biggest mistake was expecting the British to play fair in return for helping to fight against the Turks in WW1.

Just can't be arsed anymore...At least the Arabs and Muslims in my office can grasp facts and are more inclined to look at more than one side of the story.

I didnt realise that outright theft had another side to it. The facts are pretty clear.

 

[tierk]

lol tierk you're only stating the things that are convenient to you, like I said earlier, and ignoring a LOT of other things, really pointless to argue with you..

lol another one telling me its pointless to argue with me. So tell me what are these things that i am choosing to ignore? Enlighten me, i do want to know, as i am generally a open minded person and i like to believe that i am the type of person who can be persuaded by simple logic and facts.

Unlike yourself who refuses to accept facts even when they are dangled in front of your nose.

Example .....

90% of Iraqis say they were better off under Saddam Hussein | The News is NowPublic.com

or.....

Secret MoD poll: Iraqis support attacks on British troops - Telegraph.....

and this was your reponses.....

It's a very complicated thing, as you need to ask ppl from different regions, different religions, diff society positions etc, how can you be sure that it was made correctly?

and

Thought you said you didnt believe western media? However you seem to believe them when its convenient for you.

Now tell me again who is it pointless to argue with?? I hope i answered the above points clearly enough for you.

And no one forced them into camps in the first place.......

Regardless of the truth of this statement, 4 million Palestinians currently live in abject poverty throughout the region in refugee camps. What is the solution to this problem. They are not just going to disappear, they have legitmate claims to land in what is today called Israel.

.....also I served in the army for 3 years, spending a lot of time on the palestinian territories,often speaking with the citizens there. Most of them felt more secure when we were there.....

Yea you would be surprised what people will say when they are in fear of there lives and have guns pointed at them. I am taking a wild guess here that all those kids that throw stones at your tanks are the satisified and secure feeling citizens right?

.....cause once we left, the Hamas agents came to their homes and persuaded lots of their youth to suicide themselves for money. Those who didnt agree were often sent threats to their families.....

Is this the same Hamas that won the last elections in Palestine? Let me guess they threatened the entire population? Damn for people that are so unpopular they seemed to have a awefull lot of supporters at the elections.

.....I can only feel sorry for the all really innocent palestinians that just wanna live in peace and those extremists wont let them.

I suppose that the road blocks, travel restrictions, missle attacks in civilian areas, extra judicial killings, destruction of homes destruction of there livelihood is the Israeli way of wanting people to live in peace?

Till there is a just solution to the conflict in Palestine there will be no peace in the Middle East.

 

[Huntingtons]

Please tell me how you think that a poll is taken?

a poll doesnt show accurate numbers for anything - you can maybe use them as guidelines (as in yours, there's a dendency that people dont like the coalition, however if the survey was done with 100 people in a very Saddam supportive area its kinda useless, no?)

but the problem isnt only that the Isreali people doesnt wanna give the land to the Palestinian. Jews has always been the subject to oppression and scapegoat-ism and will probably continue to even if there was a peaceful solution to the problem.

 

[aika]

thats some nice "facts" there
whats the just solution then? removal of Israel?
If I could decide, then I would give them the remaining lands in the west bank that are controlled by IDF atm, make a border and cut off all communication - this will be better for both sides imo, since both sides seem to hold grudges against each other.

 

[tierk]

thats some nice "facts" there ......

Why dont you try to come up with some facts that are contrary to what i have posted in this thread? If they are so patently false then it should be easy enough to discredit surely? Or are you just like Hawkwind who wants to beat me to death with Sectarinism as that is about the only thing he can find to dispute?

whats the just solution then? removal of Israel?.......

Is that what you consider a just solution for one party to just disappear?

As i posted earlier a good starting point would be to remove yourselves to the borders as designated by the UN, pre 1967. This would mean removing the hundreds of thousands of settlers and the hundreds of settlements in occupied areas.

The handing back of East Jerusalem, though on a personal level i would rather see Jerusalem as a open neutral city.

Some form of compensation for people that have claims to land that currently falls in Israel would also seem a good idea, certainly better then the current policy of not even being prepared to talk about these things and constantly putting them off.

If I could decide, then I would give them the remaining lands in the west bank that are controlled by IDF atm, make a border and cut off all communication - this will be better for both sides imo, since both sides seem to hold grudges against each other.

At last something that we can agree on.

 

[tierk]

a poll doesnt show accurate numbers for anything - you can maybe use them as guidelines (as in yours, there's a dendency that people dont like the coalition, however if the survey was done with 100 people in a very Saddam supportive area its kinda useless, no?).

You are correct a poll isnt given as a 100% accurate measure but rather its used a general way of measuring what is the mood about a subject. For example they have polls before elections. However, seeing as that poll was conducted by the MoD (Minstry of Defence) themselves i would imagine that they would have tried to get as wide a representation of the Iraqi's as possible so as to get a fairly accurate reading of the mood of the people of Iraq.

but the problem isnt only that the Isreali people doesnt wanna give the land to the Palestinian. Jews has always been the subject to oppression and scapegoat-ism and will probably continue to even if there was a peaceful solution to the problem.

Agreed but this is very true of Jews in Europe but wasnt the case for Jews living in the Middle East countries. Well until thier intentions became clear with regards to Palestine.

Pograms etc are a European problem, Hitler wasnt a Arab incase you havent realised but a Austrian /German.

 

[aika]

Only thing i dont understand is why Jordan and Egypt dont want those territories back? i'm pretty sure that Israel would gladly give them teh west bank and gaza strip back, think it has something to do with the fact that they dont really want that problematic population in their states, I dunno. The only country that wants its territory back is Syria, and none of its former citizens live in the Golan Heights.


Edit: West Bank was a Jordan territory and Gaza Strip an Egyptian one, before 1967.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

I am 100% sure that Isreal and the presence of alot of foreign soldiers in middle eastern countries are not only the biggest reason for the lack of peace, but also a great contributor to religious fundamentalism since it gives a foundation for this.

Now read it carefully. I'm not saying Israel should disappear, but turning a blind eye to this reason by coming up with, sorry, bad excuses for the problem is really hurting alot. If you want to solve a problem you also need to know the root of the problem.

And its a very complex matter, because what options do you have when it comes to solve a problem of this sort? It wont get solved untill israelis and palestines live and let live. But Israel sure aint giving the other parties any reason to believe that they want to live and let live - so pulling back from occupied lands AND pulling foreign soldiers out where they dont belong is a REALLY REALLY good start :>

edit:

Thinking about it, but making Jerusalem neutral territory is probably also a good idea? Discuss

Israel is not occupying every Middle Eastern country, yet in a lot of those countries religious fundamentalism exists.

Pakistan for example - there are some USA forces there and they should be there as long as the tribes and their leaders don't care about national borders and operate in Afghanistan or train terrorists to hit targets all over the world.

Poland and other east European countries have been occupied by Sowiet forces for over 40 years. I don't remeber such "behaviour" in those countries like for example in Iraq/Afghanistan, even if some of them have/had a very high perecentage of believers, some with a tendency to be ultra religious. And Polish hate(d) Sowiets to the death.

Maybe the difference was that even kids there weren't brainwashed and didn't run with guns and that those countries had strong politcal leaders fighting for the idenpendence with peaceful methods (pope/unions).

What kind of independence and peace is there supposed to be in Palastine, Afghanistan, Iraq and so on? The people there are not even united in their goals, Fatah vs. Hamas, Sunnites vs. Shiites vs. Kurds. vs Turks.

It's easy for me to divide into categories of parties who want peace and those who do not want peace and for me Israel is on the list of the parties who want peace.

I don't think Israel is the root of religious fundamentalism, that would be a totally laughable reversion.

What goals do fundamentalists have? If those goals are fair-minded, should they be achieve with peaceful methods or should they be achieved in radical and intolerant ways?

I don't support (religious) fundamentalism. For me a young person running around with an assault rifle or a self-attached bomb and killing people is someone who didn't have the chance to learn about cognitive science in school. A victim of its own weak society.

 

[aika]

no manisch , Israel is the source of all evil! How dare you question the great peaceful islamic society!

Do you see any other religion that has something like Jihad in it? And before you answer crusades mates!, crusades werent part of the christian religion.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Agreed but this is very true of Jews in Europe but wasnt the case for Jews living in the Middle East countries. Well until thier intentions became clear with regards to Palestine.

Pograms etc are a European problem, Hitler wasnt a Arab incase you havent realised but a Austrian /German.

Please, inform yourself. Take part in a discussion after or post some questions instead of your biased and incorrect assumptions.

A read about Palestine supporting Hitler:

FrontPage Magazine

One of the more important parts:

"It is fair to conclude that the official leader of the Muslims in Palestine, Haj Amin al-Husseini, was a full fledged Nazi war criminal and he was so declared at Nuremberg and sought by Yugoslavia as a war criminal after the war. He escaped to Egypt where he was given asylum and helped to organize many former Nazis and Nazi sympathizers against Israel."

 

[aika]

The thing I mentioned earlier, while IDF was still doing patrols in the palestinian cities, we were often asked to stay for the night because they were afraid of hamas operatives that would come in the night and take their children. Those children would become suicide bombers after a few weeks of brainwashing. Now I know you will say that no one can prove it etc, I really dont mind, I know that it's true and I know that it happened a lot of times. Now would you consider it as a normal behaviour, tierk? Can you still justify that by occupation or whatever? Do you think that those Hamas leaders are sane?

And then ask yourself again, how can someone negotiate about anything with such people? I'm sorry but I feel ashamed that I belong to the same species as those people that send children to death, thinking its a god given right.

Do you see in the span of history any other people that did the same under occupation? Did you see french underground operatives explode themselves on germans or send their kids with assault rifles to fight the german occupants in WW2? Did you see anything like this while Eastern Europe was occupied by the Soviet Union? Thats just a few examples from recent history, Please give me one example when a nation under occupation by a foreign force sent their youth to suicide in the name of god? Only thing i can think of are Japanese kamikaze, but those were sent on military targers.

I'm sorry you can come with any assumptions you want about Israeli or USA atrocities, but nothing can justify this behaviour, simply nothing.

Moreso all the Israeli atrocities that you mentioned were an act of retaliation and a preventive measure against suicide bombers.

The jews that lived in Israel before 1948 under the British mandate fought against occupation as well, as they considered Britain an occupant. Did you see any of them explode on british soldiers?

 

[tierk]

Please, inform yourself.....

If you are going to quote a article from a magazine at least try and get a magazine that doesnt have a clear agenda and axe to grind.

FrontPage Magazine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Important bits to read in this link......


It regularly condemns official enemies of the U.S. and is a strong proponent of the war on terror, the Iraq War, and Israel's military actions. [citation needed] It has also published articles condemning what it perceives as left-wing organizations and causes, such as the Democratic party, the media, the environmental movement, affirmative action, reparations for slavery, left-wing interpretations of feminism, Islamism, socialism, communism, anarchism, anti-war groups, the United Nations, and other matters. [citation needed]
.

Great source, kinda like me coming and copy pasting from "raghead" tv stations.

 

[tierk]

The thing I mentioned earlier, while IDF was still doing patrols in the palestinian cities, we were often asked to stay for the night because they were afraid of hamas operatives that would come in the night and take their children. Those children would become suicide bombers after a few weeks of brainwashing. Now I know you will say that no one can prove it etc, I really dont mind, I know that it's true and I know that it happened a lot of times. Now would you consider it as a normal behaviour, tierk? Can you still justify that by occupation or whatever? Do you think that those Hamas leaders are sane?....

I dont dipsute with you that suicide bombings are totally wrong, from both a religious point of view and morally it is repugnant. This doesnt take away from the fact that they have been under occupation since 1967 and subjected to a whole host of restrictions.

I am not a unreasonable person i understand the Israelis desire for a peaceful existence and reconize this. But not at the expense of others.

And then ask yourself again, how can someone negotiate about anything with such people? I'm sorry but I feel ashamed that I belong to the same species as those people that send children to death, thinking its a god given right?....

The quest for peace sometimes involves hard choices and big sacrifices from both parties that are seeking peace. Noone says it is smooth sailing all the way, it never is.

.....Do you see in the span of history any other people that did the same under occupation.....

Suicide attack - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was perfected by factions of the Lebanese Civil War; spread to insurgents groups like the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka, Palestinian groups, Al-Qaeda, and by 2005 to dozens of countries where a weaker power is fighting a stronger one. Particularly hard-hit have been military and civilian targets in Sri Lanka during Sri Lankan Civil War, Israeli targets in Israel since 1994, and Iraqis since the US-led invasion of that country in 2003. From 1980 to 2003, suicide attacks amounted to only 3% of all terrorist attacks but accounted for 48% of total deaths due to terrorism - this excluding 9/11 attacks. [1]

Sikhs in India to assassinate Ghandi, or how about Tamil Tigers suicide attacks and they are not even occupied but are fighting for a independent state within Sri Lanka.

.....Moreso all the Israeli atrocities that you mentioned were an act of retaliation and a preventive measure against suicide bombers......

I am sure that you will point in the direction of plenty of similar attrocities that have been perpetratated against Jews, no doubt both sides have done some sick shit and continue to do so, but.....

The motivation of recent attack campaigns is a matter of much controversy, with one scholar (Robert Pape), attributing over 90% of attacks prior to the Iraq Civil War to the same strategic goal: the withdrawal of the occupying forces from a disputed territory. [2]

I dont disagree that Israel is attacked repeatedly by Palestinians, no doubt and Israeli's have a right to live without fear of constant bombings, however, not at the expense of other people.

Bring Peace to the Holy Land and you will go a long way in stopping groups like Al Qaeda. Its conflicts like this that are inspiring people to join up and fight committing heinous acts against innocents. To stop people from suiciding you have to give them reason to want to live, better jobs, security, the promise of a better future. The people of Palestine have none of these things and they therefore go out of there way to try and stop Israeli's having these things as well.

 

[Chronictank]

To stop people from suiciding you have to give them reason to want to live, better jobs, security, the promise of a better future. The people of Palestine have none of these things and they therefore go out of there way to try and stop Israeli's having these things as well.

QFT

 

[tierk]

no manisch , Israel is the source of all evil! How dare you question the great peaceful islamic society!

Do you see any other religion that has something like Jihad in it? And before you answer crusades mates!, crusades werent part of the christian religion.

lol i just read this comment and i realised you are one divvy c..t

Let me guess the crusaders were actually chinese buddhist monks who were handing out fortune cookies?

 

[Sharma]

. <--------------------- Sarcasm








































. <-------------------- Tierk's head.

 

[aika]

lol i just read this comment and i realised you are one divvy c..t

Let me guess the crusaders were actually chinese buddhist monks who were handing out fortune cookies?

You clearly missed my point, crusades arent part of the christian religion, do you see anywhere in the bible mentioning the you should crusade and kill the unbelievers? The goal of the crusades was to capture Jerusalem and the Holy Land. While Jihad is something that is derived from the Qur'an and thus embedded in the islamic religion.

 

[Chronictank]

While Jihad is something that is derived from the Qur'an and thus embedded in the islamic religion.

Yet there is no mention that Jihad == go around killing people in the qu'ran either
Jihad literally means to try your utmost to realize a goal, it does not in any way mean war. In arabic you would use the word "qital", which subsequently is what is used in the qu'ran.
In the context of the qu'ran it means "striving in God’s cause" or "enjoining good and forbidding evil".
Paraphrased from another site Jihad means effort or endeavors against man’s own self. Jihad is to work hard to do right things.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

If you are going to quote a article from a magazine at least try and get a magazine that doesnt have a clear agenda and axe to grind.

...

Great source, kinda like me coming and copy pasting from "raghead" tv stations.

An agenda like you have in mind?

So was "Haj Amin al-Husseini, was a full fledged Nazi war criminal and he was so declared at Nuremberg" or not?

You are disqualifying yourself more and more for a serious discussion. The article I quoted is full with good facts as opposed to your statement that progroms and nazism was a European thingy and that Arabs had nothing to do with it. Instead of saying something about its content you just say the source is bad. Some people here discussing with you think that you are a bad source too, yet they give you the chance for discussion, you should keep that in mind.

But your wish is my order, you seem to like Wikipedia: Mohammad Amin al-Husayni - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

Bring Peace to the Holy Land and you will go a long way in stopping groups like Al Qaeda.

So you do support terrorist organizations who are murdering innocent people by asking for the fullfilment of their utopic goals?

Do you really think Al Qaeda would stop even if the Palaestine/Israel-conflict would be resolved peacefully? The Taliban have been ruling Afghanistan in what way exactly? The Hamas has been ruling Palestine in what way exactly?

Do you consider that what's going on in Iran peace too? 16 year old girls being executed in public? People having a worse life than 30 years ago?

How would a peace that Al Qaeda supports look like?

Killing innocent, nonbelievers is inherent to their system. What about women's rights? Would they allow them to vote, to go to school, to choose who they are going to marry?

Would you?

Do you know the UN human rights charta?

FYI in Afghanistan the Taliban said no to a cooperation with the government, they didn't want to be the part of a peaceful process.

The Hamas itself brought Palestine in an even worse situation, even though Israel didn't want them to participate in the last elections they could, because the US government asked Israel to allow them to the elections. They had a chance and what did they do?

Go to Afghanistan and speak with the people there, they want foreign military forces in their country, they DO NOT want the Taliban/Al Qaeda back, they were under the radical fundamentalistic oppresion for long enough.

Your whole foundation of the religious fundamentalism collapses like a chart house.

 

[tierk]

An agenda like you have in mind?....

So want a just solution to a situation that has been going on for over 60 years is a bad thing in your book?

You are disqualifying yourself more and more for a serious discussion. The article I quoted is full with good facts as opposed to your statement that progroms and nazism was a European thingy and that Arabs had nothing to do with it......

I gave it about as much attention as i give one of your retarded threads in the RvR section becuase that is about as much merit as it has. To try and make out that the Palestinians had anything to do with the mass murder of Jews in camps in Germany is idiotic. Pogram is even a Russian word. Jews lived side by side with Arabs in the Holy Land for a long time and have experienced shit times mostly in Europe.

Instead of saying something about its content you just say the source is bad. Some people here discussing with you think that you are a bad source too, yet they give you the chance for discussion, you should keep that in mind.......

You have over the last year or so shown that your are just one argumentative **** on these forums, in thread after thread and if you think i will be entertaining a idiot like you with a discussion, esp after making a statements like the Palestinians were some how involved in the eradication of Jews in Europe, on the back of one person, then you are sadly mistaken.

So you do support terrorist organizations who are murdering innocent people by asking for the fullfilment of their utopic goals?.

Reading is a required if you are going to try and enter into discussion with people. At no point do i say that i support terrorism but i ask the questions as to what people expect? The dreams of these terrorists are not utopic unless ofc you mean that its utopic to want to live free in ones own land, as i am sure you do yourself in your own country.

Do you really think Al Qaeda would stop even if the Palaestine/Israel-conflict would be resolved peacefully?

Once again i dont claim to know what Alqaeda or any other terrorist orgainsation would do or not do in the case of a resoltuion to conflicts in the Middle East, seeing as reading is not your strong point i will say it again for you........

I dont dipsute with you that suicide bombings are totally wrong, from both a religious point of view and morally it is repugnant.This doesnt take away from the fact that they have been under occupation since 1967 and subjected to a whole host of restrictions.

I am not a unreasonable person i understand the Israelis desire for a peaceful existence and reconize this. But not at the expense of others..........

I am sure that you will point in the direction of plenty of similar attrocities that have been perpetratated against Jews, no doubt both sides have done some sick shit and continue to do so, but.....

I dont disagree that Israel is attacked repeatedly by Palestinians, no doubt and Israeli's have a right to live without fear of constant bombings, however, not at the expense of other people.

Bring Peace to the Holy Land and you will go a long way in stopping groups like Al Qaeda. Its conflicts like this that are inspiring people to join up and fight committing heinous acts against innocents......

 

[aika]

Seeing that you didnt answer about the palestinian leader, here's another link for you to read :
1929 Palestine riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and this:
Arab-Israeli conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The situation was at a boiling point by 1939. However, with the winds of war in the air, the issue was put on hold for the duration of the war. At the end of World War II, Britain wanted a resolution of the problem. It referred the issue to the United Nations. Its solution was a two-state solution. The UN partition plan [9] was approved by the United Nations in November 1947 by 33 votes to 13 with 10 absentions, but was rejected by Palestinian Arabs and the Arab states which constituted the Arab League.


The main differences between the 1947 partition proposal and 1949 armistice lines are highlighted in light red and magentaIsrael declared its independence on 14 May 1948. Almost immediately the Arab League countries Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan, and Iraq declared war on the new state.

maybe read some things before you come and blame Israel for everything? I know that we did a lot of things wrong and some were misjudged, and not all actions of Israel were of good motives, but the general intention is peace in the region. I'm quite sure that most palestinians want peace as well, its just a small extermist minority that doesnt want that (on both sides). You need 2 ppl for a tango

 

[tierk]

Seeing that you didnt answer about the palestinian leader, here's another link for you to read :
1929 Palestine riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and this:
Arab-Israeli conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

With both of those links you will note that problems arose after the Balfour Declaration of 1917 when it became abundantly clear, what the intentions of the incoming settlers where. Late 19th century onwards saw a big increase in the number of Jews coming to live in Palestine, the Jews living in Palestine before then where in a very small minority.

maybe read some things before you come and blame Israel for everything? I know that we did a lot of things wrong and some were misjudged, and not all actions of Israel were of good motives, but the general intention is peace in the region.....

The reason i blame Israel for many things is that, Israel is the country doing the occupying, Israel is the country carrying out extra judcial killings, Israel is the country that has been created out of lands that belong to another people. This doesnt mean the Palestinians are blameless, they have been there worst enemy over the years with there actions.

However, a desperate person will try anything, i might not agree with a lot of the things i see happening in Palestine by the different factions fighting against Israel but i understand why they do it.

I'm quite sure that most palestinians want peace as well, its just a small extermist minority that doesnt want that (on both sides). You need 2 ppl for a tango

Once again something we can agree on.

 

[Manisch Depressiv]

It's quite funny when someone who hasn't answered the original points that have been made goes around and calls the most documented thing that happened in the world's history idiotic and me an idiot for providing the information to it. Palestine supported the Nazis (and vice versa) during WW2.

It's not the confilicts per se that make people fight. The civilized people learned to solve their confilicts by negotiating and forming trade-offs or even by realizing that using the war efforts for something else like for example trading has way more benefit.

You should watch a movie like "A Brief History of Violence". A lot is better today than it was before and I doubt that the Arabs lived in a more peaceful way to the Jews than they do it today. At the moment we are in one if not in the most peaceful times the humans ever lived in.

But how can a kid that is brain-washed in "religious school" know that? You didn't make any points about the lack of the education in for example Palestine. You didn't make any points to of how sovereign islamistic countries are (Iran) or were (Afghanistan) ruled?

It's a clash of cultures at the moment for me. On the one side the modern countries seeing human rights as universal, who managed to seperate religion from state and on the otherside countries ruled by despots or religious fanatics. I don't see much will from the ones ruling the secondly mentioned countries to let the people who are living in those countries participate in political decisions and in wealth.

I see young people who have no bread to eat because someone is spending too much money on weapons and war efforts who then get curled into a collective that is being told that it is Israel's or the western world's fault that they don't have to eat. I see young people who get told that one can reach the eternal bliss by running to a restaurant full with civilians and blowing it up.

I come from Poland, a country that has been erradicated from the map a couple of times in the recent history. I know how it feels for someone to live under occupation and not in the borders the country once was. So I understand the Palestinian problem.

But I also know that Poland weakened itself and wasn't prepared for the attacks and that no one did step in to help Poland in time until it became world wide confilcts. Some countries around Israel threaten its existence and with the experiences from the past I also understand Israel's position.

What I don't understand is fanatical behaviour, be it a religion or a nation.

Following your way I could ask to restore the power back to when Poland was great power in Europe. I don't think that the Palestinian people need more land in order to survive. I understand it if they want their old identity back, but I think it's a delusion - it will not change anything for the people and the way some are persuing this goal is just getting them and others killed, nothing else.