Netherlands Xmas Tradition...

[Everz]

First person accounts of what? Your claiming they are over 160 years old now or perhaps they knew St Christopher?

You realise anecdotes are pretty much useless as evidence of anything right? I mean by anecdotal evidence you can prove UFO's, the Yeti and the Loch Ness Monster...

Whilst Internet sources of which are also anecdotes are purely concrete. I'm out, petty crap typed by some white toff.

 

[DaGaffer]

Just like ascribing an opinion as second-rate if people don't give up all their wealth to hold it, eh?

No.

 

[Scouse]

Could you possibly be any more patronising?

To be fair to rynnor, a lot of Yoni's replys were emotional rants.

However, I agree with Yoni and not rynnor, so...

 

[rynnor]

I'm out

You were never in - it was just a drive by without substance 3/10 - please try harder

 

[TdC]

Ah, but Black Pete isn't portrayed as a buffoon with a language deficiency but Sinterklaas' aid in nearly all things, because the good holy man himself can apparently do fuck all. There are Pete's for any given task from menial to managerial...like smurfs or Santa's elves. Basically I guess you could say that the organisation Sinterklaas is an extremely efficient company, seemingly fronted by an elderly dude in a silly hat but in reality completely run, owned and governed by the Petes.

 

[TdC]

I'm trying to think of an analogous British "tradition" we maintained in any of our colonies that was subsequently banned as racist before we'd addressed the issue at home first, and I can't think of one*

what I came closest to was Guy Fawkes. as a loose analogy that is. I wonder how many parents have explained to their kids exactly what effigy burning really means. I suppose about the same percentage as those who bother to explain to their kids who Black Pete really is.

 

[rynnor]

what I came closest to was Guy Fawkes. as a loose analogy that is. I wonder how many parents have explained to their kids exactly what effigy burning really means. I suppose about the same percentage as those who bother to explain to their kids who Black Pete really is.

Apart from in surrey where they nominate a different person to burn each year the bonfires bit is pretty much dead replaced by fireworks night. I think health and safety is probably the main reason.

Even that is now being eaten up by halloween and diwali.

All of my kids were taught about Guy Fawkes and the gunpowder plot at school.

I think the main difference is that it commemorates an actual event rather than some racial stereotype.

Theres also a fair amount of sympathy for Guy Fawkes aim of blowing up Parliament

 

[Raven]

Except that he wasn't the leader, just the idiot that got caught.

And by racial stereotype you mean black? Because as far as I can tell, Black Pete portrayed as a pretty decent chap.

 

[mr.Blacky]

But you like myself would be regarded as an 'allochtoon' - an outsider who should keep their mouth shut in the Black Pete debate.

No she would not, as she is not a Dutch national. Non national means foreigner, sorry but that is a facepalm
And yes you can have an opinion but if you don't live there means I don't have to listen to you as most likely you have no clue what you are talking about.
Before you link to wiki, when I lived in the Netherlands I classed myself as a foreigner even if I was born and mainly raised there. Did not have Dutch nationality despite a Dutch mum, 400 quid for a nationality is a rip off!

Oh and my stories are anecdotes? well what do you think the internet is? the answer is anecdotes. Next thing is you think its the absolute truth.

 

[TdC]

Apart from in surrey where they nominate a different person to burn each year

lol that's pretty harsh


as to your other remarks, I was taught about slavery, the slave trade and the part the Dutch, and the Americans played in it. As I've been to both International (US) UK and NL schools the only one I missed it in while attending was the UK. Ofc, the US start hammering (the abolition of) slavery in to students at a pretty young age, given that I was 9 when I left international schooling.
Anyway learning about and being spoon fed the Dutch guilt over their past acts has basically turned me off to lots of things. When the NL stated their deep regret over institutionalized slavery practices in the past to Suriname I felt it was a complete political stage event and had nothing to do with much of anything real. Every single country in the world has gratuitously FUCKED every other country whenever they had a chance for it, in the past, present and they will continue to do so in the future. That once apon a time they captured swaths of indigenous peoples, transported them to other places and forced them to work in an existence of complete misery ages ago I personally find abhorrent but I don't feel any guilt or see a reason to offer apologies to anyone else for stuff that went down ages ago and I had no control over at all.

That aside, I personally see Sinterklaas and Black Pete as a great excuse to spoil kids. The average Dutch person loves it and certainly does not view Saint Nicolas or Black Pete as anything other than a candy-spewing present-giving bundles of joy. What's normally done is that people write each other rhymes (from Sinterklaas) poking gentle fun at the other (or harsh fun if it's your mates) together with a cleverly wrapped present made to look like something else, or booby-trapped to shower the giftee with confetti, or syrup, or candy. I can assure you as someone who's lived in the NL for the past 27 years, there's nothing negative associated with Sinterklaas in the slightest and the Dutch certainly do not gather to sing songs of the good old days where they had peoples to work their plantations for them, on land they stole. (the association here is that you could say that Santa Claus is a tyrannical oppressor of elves (if you want fantasy), or that the Christian church is bogus because they choose to be represented by an idealized instrument of torture and generally have baby Jebus being white because it makes indoctrination and association just that much easier (if you want even more fantasy) .

 

[Lamp]

Black Pete

When I lived in Bristol our plumber was called Pete. Peter the Plumber. He had a pony tail and looked like a rat. But he was cheap and knew how to fix a toilet.

 

[DaGaffer]

what I came closest to was Guy Fawkes. as a loose analogy that is. I wonder how many parents have explained to their kids exactly what effigy burning really means. I suppose about the same percentage as those who bother to explain to their kids who Black Pete really is.

That's not a bad analogy, and the anti-catholic sentiment was probably quite real in my grandparents' day (if largely unspoken; Bonfire Night hasn't been overtly anti-catholic since the 19th century), although by now I think its been rebranded to the point where the connection is broken; half the time there's no bonfire and when was the last time you saw kids asking for a penny for the Guy? Having said that, I would imagine its still a hot topic (sorry) in Northern Ireland. I bet the Nationalists just love it, and yeah, if Loyalists have Guy Fawkes Night in NI, I'd suggest it be dropped. Everyone does Halloween these days anyway.

 

[rynnor]

half the time there's no bonfire and when was the last time you saw kids asking for a penny for the Guy?

I was thinking about that and I think it went out about 20 years ago replaced by trick or treaters.

I cant say I'm overly sad though as Halloween is fun.

 

[TdC]

That's not a bad analogy, and the anti-catholic sentiment was probably quite real in my grandparents' day (if largely unspoken; Bonfire Night hasn't been overtly anti-catholic since the 19th century), although by now I think its been rebranded to the point where the connection is broken; half the time there's no bonfire and when was the last time you saw kids asking for a penny for the Guy? Having said that, I would imagine its still a hot topic (sorry) in Northern Ireland. I bet the Nationalists just love it, and yeah, if Loyalists have Guy Fawkes Night in NI, I'd suggest it be dropped. Everyone does Halloween these days anyway.

I did Halloween growing up, as 99% of the other ex-pats were from the US or Canada we got it with everything else (North) American. Coming to the UK, I remember not liking Guy Fawkes night as A) we didn't get any sweets and B) it was just a bunch of adults standing about swilling booze and C) it was COLD. Moving to the NL I missed Christmas (although many in NL now celebrate it. Caved in to the consumer pressure I guess heh). Sinterklaas leaves me cold, although I'll give you that it's super fun in large families, and they have a weird thing called Sint Maarten usually celebrated below the rivers which I never understood, and Carnaval...well that can fuck right off tbh.

Reading that I guess I'm just a grumpy fucker hahaha

 

[Scouse]

if Loyalists have Guy Fawkes Night in NI, I'd suggest it be dropped.

And I'd make an effigy of you for the fire Gaff.

Oh, and fuck halloween...

 

[DaGaffer]

I did Halloween growing up, as 99% of the other ex-pats were from the US or Canada we got it with everything else (North) American. Coming to the UK, I remember not liking Guy Fawkes night as A) we didn't get any sweets and B) it was just a bunch of adults standing about swilling booze and C) it was COLD. Moving to the NL I missed Christmas (although many in NL now celebrate it. Caved in to the consumer pressure I guess heh). Sinterklaas leaves me cold, although I'll give you that it's super fun in large families, and they have a weird thing called Sint Maarten usually celebrated below the rivers which I never understood, and Carnaval...well that can fuck right off tbh.

Reading that I guess I'm just a grumpy fucker hahaha

What?? When I was a kid Bonfire night was all about toffee apples, cinder toffee and treacle toffee (and baked spuds in the bonfire later). *edit* it was also about spectacular injuries; I particularly remember the rusty bedspring stuck in my brother's forehead after he tripped carrying a mattress we were taking to the bonfire.

And I'd make an effigy of you for the fire Gaff.

Oh, and fuck halloween...

I'm pretty sure if Prods are having Guy Fawkes night in NI, its just to wind the Catholics up (although James I was a Scottish king I suppose...)

 

[CorNokZ]

Gefeliciteerd met Sinterklaas!!

Hope you got some good pressies Teeds

 

[TdC]

What?? When I was a kid Bonfire night was all about toffee apples, cinder toffee and treacle toffee (and baked spuds in the bonfire later). *edit* it was also about spectacular injuries; I particularly remember the rusty bedspring stuck in my brother's forehead after he tripped carrying a mattress we were taking to the bonfire.

my memories say we got fuck all. maybe it was a bad year? only thing remotely fun I can remember is a Catherine wheel firework in the back garden coming loose and whizzing off to hit a neighbor's house.

 

[TdC]

Gefeliciteerd met Sinterklaas!!

Hope you got some good pressies Teeds

cheers blud, I bought myself a thrifty LED lamp!






























































it's pretty though :

 

[mr.Blacky]

they have a weird thing called Sint Maarten usually celebrated below the rivers which I never understood, and Carnaval...well that can fuck right off tbh.

Carnaval is below the rivers Sint Maarten is everywhere and yes never got the whole carnaval thing but loved Sint Maarten ringing doors then sing and getting free candy! Well didn't like the singing part and I always skipped two houses, the dentist and the doctor (they gave either a toothbrush or an apple)