Netherlands Xmas Tradition...

[rynnor]

Stories shouldn't adapt to modern days just to appease modern people.

If that were true then Black Pete wouldnt exist since hes a relatively modern addition - glad to see you agree

 

[old.Tohtori]

Relativity doesn't equal agreement, that's a whole different topic on origins and the basis of the celebration.

What is the time frame of this "modern" addition? 1996?

 

[rynnor]

WHO THE HELL ARE MUSLIMS TO TELL PEOPLE CHRISTMAS IS WRONG.

A repeating theme - quote from that article I posted earlier:

"The critics of Black Pete were repeatedly confronted with the argument that 'they' did not have the right to critique 'Dutch tradition' because they weren't 'Dutch'. The discussion was being polarised as if the different opinions were divided along 'racial' lines. The argument is as follows: as an 'allochtoon', a 'migrant', one has to accept the Dutch 'traditions'. Just as a 'Dutch' person would have to accept local traditions when they lived in 'another' country. The logic here is that it's not their country and culture that the youngsters are criticizing.

By ascribing second-rate citizenship to the critics who aren't considered "Dutch", the authority of the speaker is undermined. On the other hand when it appears that the critic is white, he or she is often being marginalized as being "political correct", which is used as a contemptuous term. The letters in the newspapers and on the internet were in general very emotional, reflecting a fear that 'Dutch' culture is being 'threatened' by 'foreigners' "

 

[rynnor]

Relativity doesn't equal agreement, that's a whole different topic on origins and the basis of the celebration.

What is the time frame of this "modern" addition? 1996?

160 years ago Black Pete was added but St Christopher was born about 1700 years earlier than that so yah - pretty recent.

 

[Yoni]

If you wish to bring facts to the discussion kindly do so - if you can show that Black Pete existed before a slaving era Teacher invented him please do.

If not then no amount of slaver over your keyboard is really relevant.

I have bought facts born out of experience of living in the country and two Dutch citizens have also shared their experience also. Yours come from the bible known as wiki, with no real understanding of the culture.....

My points stand, who the hell are you to dictate what is right or wrong in NL... You are no one and your opinion although is yours and sadly can't be changed is one born out of ignorance.

As I said if you, stop taking the Internet as gospel, and go out and experience other cultures....

 

[old.Tohtori]

160 years ago Black Pete was added but St Christopher was born about 1700 years earlier than that so yah - pretty recent.

It's not though. Current Anti-racism is pretty recent, compared to that the black pete addition is a long time ago. It's even before slave freedom in the US.

The modern outrage towards black pete is in childboots compared to any of those.

So no, i don't agree. If you can prove that black pete was added to appease the people from 1850, then we can continue

 

[rynnor]

More rant

Anecdotes are just that - as to the who are you stuff I could ask you the same thing - clearly you wouldnt be stupid enough to argue that a foreigner shouldnt have an opinion on it when you yourself are also a foreigner - I mean surely...

Edit: also I hope you appreciate the irony of your arguement being almost word for word the arguement that was used against young black dutch citixens who dared to criticise Black Peter

 

[Yoni]

Anecdotes are just that - as to the who are you stuff I could ask you the same thing - clearly you wouldnt be stupid enough to argue that a foreigner shouldnt have an opinion on it when you yourself are also a foreigner - I mean surely...

I experience each culture I encounter with an open mind.... I am adaptable and try to understand differences before drawing random conclusions.

My job requires that I understand culture very very quickly in order to ensure the success of cross continent / country projects.

Not all my views on Dutch traditions are positive...... Ie even though I am born a catholic, I abhor carnival and the fact that if you live in the south you can't escape it. However! I was a guest in their country so during carnival season I either escaped North or left the country for a week.

 

[rynnor]

I experience each culture I encounter with an open mind.... I am adaptable and try to understand differences before drawing random conclusions.

My job requires that I understand culture very very quickly in order to ensure the success of cross continent / country projects.

Not all my views on Dutch traditions are positive...... Ie even though I am born a catholic, I abhor carnival and the fact that if you live in the south you can't escape it. However! I was a guest in their country so during carnival season I either escaped North or left the country for a week.

But you like myself would be regarded as an 'allochtoon' - an outsider who should keep their mouth shut in the Black Pete debate.

You seem to have adapted without questioning anything - I try to remain a little more objective.

 

[Everz]

Using wikipedia as a credible source.

Hah.

 

[Everz]

But you like myself would be regarded as an 'allochtoon' - an outsider who should keep their mouth shut in the Black Pete debate.

You seem to have adapted without questioning anything - I try to remain a little more objective.

You move to a country in which it is common to accept their traditions, I fail to see what they're is to 'comply' to? It's correct not to question a countries traditions as long as those migrants are allowed to keep there own, which my understanding from people who have lived in Dutch society (and it'll apply for British society), those migrants haven't had there traditions stamped out?

This is such a non-argument and the same crap that's spouted over here week in week out.

 

[Yoni]

How did you know I didn't question, I lived there for 3 years, during that time I had plenty of time to Forman objective and informed view? As for being an outsider there, I felt more at home in Breda than I ever felt in the UK, I consider many of the people I met during my stay as family and visit them and the country more often than going to the UK.

You can not consider yourself objective as you have not tried to understand anything that has been laid before you except the bits that reinforce your view that the depiction of Piet is meant to be racist.

 

[rynnor]

You move to a country in which it is common to accept their traditions, I fail to see what they're is to 'comply' to? It's correct not to question a countries traditions as long as those migrants are allowed to keep there own, which my understanding from people who have lived in Dutch society (and it'll apply for British society), those migrants haven't had there traditions stamped out?

This is such a non-argument and the same crap that's spouted over here week in week out.

These were kids born in the country, 2nd and 3rd generation migrants - in most countries that is more than enough to be included and treated as an equal citizen.

 

[rynnor]

How did you know I didn't question, I lived there for 3 years, during that time I had plenty of time to Forman objective and informed view?

You can not consider yourself objective as you have not tried to understand anything that has been laid before you except the bits that reinforce your view that the depiction of Piet is meant to be racist.

I just find it hilarious that you are arguing on behalf of a side that wouldnt even recognise your right to an opinion - its like a black guy arguing on behalf of apartheid.

 

[Cyradix]

One town here in Belgium turned it around today

Not a single fuck was given. People just continued to enjoy and celebrate Sinterklaas.

According to the centre for equal opportunities they only get 1-2 complaints about "black pete" every year.

 

[Everz]

These were kids born in the country, 2nd and 3rd generation migrants - in most countries that is more than enough to be included and treated as an equal citizen.

Right and when those parents came to the country did they question the tradition then? No. Again you seem to basing your 'fackts' off the net whilst people who have actually gone to the country or live there have entirely different views. I can google something that scientifically proves the Moon is made of cheese, does that mean it is, even though I've never gone there?

I fail to see what your arguing, it is all in good spirit surely?

 

[rynnor]

Using wikipedia as a credible source.

Please cite your sources that conflict or is this just hot air?

 

[Raven]

According to the centre for equal opportunities they only get 1-2 complaints about "black pete" every year.

Probably from hand wringers like Rynnor.

 

[Everz]

Please cite your sources that conflict or is this just hot air?

I'm more laughing at the fact your basing your entire argument on the internet rather then first person accounts.

 

[rynnor]

Right and when those parents came to the country did they question the tradition then?

Its a funny thing but people who come to a country with the majority from a different ethnicity and struggle to find work do not immediatly march up to town and demand an end to endemic racism.

Clearly by failing to do so they have waived all right to reply...

 

[rynnor]

I'm more laughing at the fact your basing your entire argument on the internet rather then first person accounts.

So you dont have anything except a generic denial - how suprising

 

[Everz]

Its a funny thing but people who come to a country with the majority from a different ethnicity and struggle to find work do not immediatly march up to town and demand an end to endemic racism.

Clearly by failing to do so they have waived all right to reply...

Ugh, christ. Without opening up another can of worms, do you by chance live in an actual multi-cultural place?

 

[Everz]

So you dont have anything except a generic denial - how suprising

I have the first person accounts of the people who are Dutch and have lived there. What more credible source do you want?

 

[Yoni]

Sorry Rynnor but your posts are just making me laugh now so the debate for me is over.

 

[rynnor]

Sorry Rynnor but your posts are just making me laugh now so the debate for me is over.

I would not characterise your replies as a debate tbh.

 

[DaGaffer]

NB. The whole "how dare you criticise other countries' culture" idea, sorry but we do it all the time. Do many of us condone bullfighting? Most of us have a view on American gun culture. Or Saudi women's rights, or Japanese whaling, or Serbian football fans, or Chinese one-child policies, the list is endless. Now against that lot Zwarte Piet might seem trivial, but in the context of the rest of (western at least) Europe, it stands out like a sore thumb.

 

[Wazzerphuk]

I would not characterise your replies as a debate tbh.

Could you possibly be any more patronising?

 

[rynnor]

I have the first person accounts of the people who are Dutch and have lived there. What more credible source do you want?

First person accounts of what? Your claiming they are over 160 years old now or perhaps they knew St Christopher?

You realise anecdotes are pretty much useless as evidence of anything right? I mean by anecdotal evidence you can prove UFO's, the Yeti and the Loch Ness Monster...

 

[rynnor]

Could you possibly be any more patronising?

Absolutely sweetie

 

[Scouse]

By ascribing second-rate citizenship to the critics who aren't considered "Dutch", the authority of the speaker is undermined.

Just like ascribing an opinion as second-rate if people don't give up all their wealth to hold it, eh?