Netherlands Xmas Tradition...

[rynnor]

Innocent or a sad racist stereotype hangover from the past?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet

 

[throdgrain]

OMG RACIST ETC

 

[old.Tohtori]

It's just tradition, everything doesn't have to be a huge racial thing.

 

[DaGaffer]

I think we know the answer don't we?

 

[Gwadien]

This is proof that TDC is racist.

 

[rynnor]

I think we know the answer don't we?

Please state your view though - I am genuinely interested.

 

[DaGaffer]

Dressing up in blackface...nah, not going near that.

 

[Raven]

BAN THIS FILTH

 

[Gwadien]

From what I just read, they're CELEBRATING St Nicholas' companion, so how is that racist?

Who was black..

 

[Scouse]

Looking at the Wiki it's an innocent tradition.

If it's innocent in the mind of the performer, then it's innocent. Who gives a fuck what anyone else thinks?

 

[rynnor]

Its an interesting legend - we in the UK tend to associate Christmas with Father Christmas and less with St Nick - in the Netherlands they celebrate Sinterklaas (St Nicholas day effectively) tomorrow and thursday which is when the kids get their presents rather than Christmas day.

The legend goes that St Nicholas had a Moorish friend and this is the origin of Black Pete. I guess that would be ok but the blacking up is a terrible taboo in the UK/US.

 

[rynnor]

Looking at the Wiki it's an innocent tradition.

If it's innocent in the mind of the performer, then it's innocent. Who gives a fuck what anyone else thinks?

I dont think it is innocent - racial stereotypes never are - apparently on kids shows all the black helpers are portrayed as bumbling idiots.

 

[DaGaffer]

From what I just read, they're CELEBRATING St Nicholas' companion, so how is that racist?

Who was black..

Read the Wiki, look at where the tradition of Zwarte Piet comes from. Even if they weren't getting dressed up in blackface, its a pretty unsavory origin story that's entirely racist.

 

[Scouse]

I dont think it is innocent - racial stereotypes never are

Dealing in absolutes?

Zwarte Pieten are often portrayed as mischievous but rarely mean-spirited characters. The character is believed to have been derived from pagan traditions of evil spirits. Also told for decades is a story that the Zwarte Pieten are black because of chimney soot and/or in mockery of the darker Spanish occupiers of the Low Countries in centuries past

Or can't we mock people if they happen to be a different colour any more?

 

[DaGaffer]

Dealing in absolutes?



Or can't we mock people if they happen to be a different colour any more?

Not if their colour is the reason for the mockery!

 

[Scouse]

Not if their colour is the reason for the mockery!

Reading the wiki - it doesn't seem to be.

 

[rynnor]

Or can't we mock people if they happen to be a different colour any more?

Not unless they are orange from a bad tanning cream - this is news to you? Where have you been for the last 30 years?

 

[Raven]

Reading the wiki - it doesn't seem to be.

It isn't but it gives the people that see racism in everything something to complain about.

 

[Scouse]

It isn't but it gives the people that see racism in everything something to complain about.

Yep. And they can fuck off.

 

[Yoni]

Seriously...... Some if you make baby Jesus cry you really do.

Go spend time in the country before you decide with your oh so fucking correct points of view that this is racist....

For people who think they are enlightened some if you are completely fucking ignorant.

 

[rynnor]

Seriously...... Some if you make baby Jesus cry you really do.

Go spend time in the country before you decide with your oh so fucking correct points of view that this is racist....

For people who think they are enlightened some if you are completely fucking ignorant.

So you are completely comfortable for people to black up their faces - paint thick red lips and wander about looking like something out of a 1930s cartoon against a backdrop of increasing tensions with immigrants in the country?

 

[Scouse]

So you are completely comfortable for people to black up their faces - paint thick red lips and wander about looking like something out of a 1930s cartoon against a backdrop of increasing tensions with immigrants in the country?

I'm personally more interested in the intent of the action, rather than the reaction of the uninformed.

 

[Yoni]

Yup because your perception of the day is incorrect and presumptuous.

 

[rynnor]

Yup because your perception of the day is incorrect and presumptuous.

Presumptious? Are you honestly saying that no one in the Netherlands thinks its stupid and racist because I think you are wrong about that.

 

[Scouse]

Presumptious? Are you honestly saying that no one in the Netherlands thinks its stupid and racist because I think you are wrong about that.

That'll be your British upbringing fucking your mind over there m8

 

[mr.Blacky]

So you are completely comfortable for people to black up their faces - paint thick red lips and wander about looking like something out of a 1930s cartoon against a backdrop of increasing tensions with immigrants in the country?

Blackface might be a 1930s cartoon in the US/UK maybe oddly enough never heard of that term in the Netherlands.
It might be racist according to you but how many other celebrations are racist in origin?

 

[Yoni]

The people I encountered all embraced it.... I can't talk for the entire country. Oh and before you presume anything the native white Dutch person was the minority in my department. Although I was the only new immigrant, the remainder were all 2nd / 3rd generation Turkish / Indonesian.

 

[rynnor]

That'll be your British upbringing fucking your mind over there m8

I suggest you read up a little about it - protestors who wore Black Pete is racist T-shirts last year got arrested and one was assaulted by a policeman - how does that sit with your championing of free speech?

 

[Punishment]

Cheap labour for santa and those soul brothers get snazzy costumes, seems win win to me

 

[mr.Blacky]

Don't think anyone will say that in a country of 16 or 17 million people everyone will agree to everything.
Believing that is silly, but did you see the video of the arrest? Not sure if you speak dutch but the cause from what I got of the 2 video's was that 2 people got arrested for public disturbance and that there was fake bomb threat. Oh and in Holland you need permission to protest, so if no permission you could be arrested for it. link:
View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79Q4n9UARDM