Netherlands Xmas Tradition...

[Yoni]

I suggest you read up a little about it - protestors who wore Black Pete is racist T-shirts last year got arrested and one was assaulted by a policeman - how does that sit with your championing of free speech?

Just out of interest do you live in NL?

 

[Raven]

Next you will be wanting to ban robinsons golliwogs

 

[Scouse]

protestors who wore Black Pete is racist T-shirts last year got arrested and one was assaulted by a policeman - how does that sit with your championing of free speech?

I think it's disgraceful - and thought that when I was reading the Wiki.

But it's racist in their opinion. Obviously not in everyone else's. So live and let live tbfh.

 

[Scouse]

Next you will be wanting to ban robinsons golliwogs

Typed "ban robinsons golliwogs" into google, got this

Hamleys joins Queen's estate in banning golliwogs...
The store said today it "wanted to be seen to be doing the right thing" as the toys and the word were "clearly offensive" to some people.

The [producing firm's] company secretary, Robin Miles, complained that the furore had been whipped up by "white liberals who had a problem with race". He said: "Most people with a problem with golliwogs have a problem with race themselves. We never had any complaints."

The doll originates from a character in a children's book more than 100 years ago. Between 1895 and 1909, a series of bestsellers were written by Florence Kate Upton, the first of which was called The Adventures of Two Dutch Dolls and a Golliwogg.

...

 

[Scouse]

This however:

in Holland you need permission to protest, so if no permission you could be arrested for it.

Is a disgrace.

 

[DaGaffer]

Reading the wiki - it doesn't seem to be.

Really?

According to myths dating to the beginning of the 19th century, Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) operated by himself or in the companionship of a devil. Having triumphed over evil, it was said that on Saint Nicholas Eve, the devil was shackled and made his slave. A devil as a helper of the Saint can also still be found in Austrian Saint Nicholas tradition in the character of Krampus.
Some sources indicate that in Germanic Europe, Zwarte Piet originally was such a mastered devil forced to assist his captor, but the character emerged in the 19th century within the Netherlands as a companion of Saint Nicholas resembling a Moor.[4] Saint Nicholas is said to come from the Byzantine Empire, modern Turkey.

Frankly even the more benign second interpretation is fairly old school racist (the European demonisation of "The Turk"), but the first version? Devil=shackled slave=black face? What more do you want? The character running around saying "where all the white women at?"

If it was black people routinely dressing up as this character (which shouldn't be difficult in a multi-cultural society) I'd call it a fine example of an inclusive tradition embracing the way Holland has been affected by its history in a positive way, but its obviously not. Fact is Zwarte Piet comes from exactly the same racist stereotyping that brought us the golliwog and the black and white minstrels and all that stuff that we've rightly abandoned, and I dare say if this wasn't so tied up with Christmas it wouldn't be so vigorously defended in Holland.

 

[mr.Blacky]

There is more to it Scouse

 

[old.user4556]

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eu6ioKjZsGU

 

[rynnor]

The other problem with the myth of St Nicholas Moorish helper being the origin is that the Moors were not black (which we know from their own artworks) - they were basically Moroccan.

 

[rynnor]

Next you will be wanting to ban robinsons golliwogs

I wouldn't ban them personally - they happened and are part of history and to ban them would be to supress this unpalatable fact.

 

[Yoni]

Really?



Frankly even the more benign second interpretation is fairly old school racist (the European demonisation of "The Turk"), but the first version? Devil=shackled slave=black face? What more do you want? The character running around saying "where all the white women at?"

If it was black people routinely dressing up as this character (which shouldn't be difficult in a multi-cultural society) I'd call it a fine example of an inclusive tradition embracing the way Holland has been affected by its history in a positive way, but its obviously not. Fact is Zwarte Piet comes from exactly the same racist stereotyping that brought us the golliwog and the black and white minstrels and all that stuff that we've rightly abandoned, and I dare say if this wasn't so tied up with Christmas it wouldn't be so vigorously defended in Holland.

DaGaffer where I lived it was a multicultural experience.... I remember the first year I was there. I was woken on the 15th November by some racket going on in the city square (I lived on the main square). When I looked out of my window the square was chockablock full of kids all dressed as Pete. I remember feeling shocked, and Kris was even more so (he is Swedish). Then as we looked closer we realised that there were as many colored children involved as white children....

However the town I lived in also had a day called red hair day where red heads from all over Europe would meet to celebrate their gingerness.... All the children from all denominations would wear red wigs that day..... Being a red head should I assume they were being prejudiced against me or enjoy the massive party?

The only time there was tension in Breda was the last Harley Day I was there (not a multi-cultural event). The tension came from an argument between Hells Angels and another rival gang (can't remember the name) and the event was cancelled as the council worried that a massive street fight would occur.

 

[Cyradix]

People are way to "politically correct" these days and see/seek offence in everything...
It's a local tradition in Belgium/The Netherlands for children. By the time they are 8 they know it's all fake.
Is it an old tradition that isn't really "correct" anymore for the current times? Sure, you can look at it that way...
Maybe it will evolve by itself due to cultural demands/impacts...
But why get upset about a childrens holiday in a country you don't even live in?
If you are so desperate to take offence of local traditions (and want change) I suggest you look to some African/Middle East countries first.

Give it time... all traditions change...
Who knows, maybe in 20 years we won't have a US style Santa anymore because he promotes obesity

 

[rynnor]

Then as we looked closer we realised that there were as many colored children involved as white children....

I'm sure many people consider it innocent - I am sure some black people join in (out of a wish to belong or to conform maybe?) - I'm sure the kids dont see any harm in it.

But that all changes nothing - history is full of nonsense that is now sensibly abhorred that was once apparently accepted by the majority.

 

[Yoni]

I'm sure many people consider it innocent - I am sure some black people join in (out of a wish to belong or to conform maybe?) - I'm sure the kids dont see any harm in it.

But that all changes nothing - history is full of nonsense that is now sensibly abhorred that was once apparently accepted by the majority.

Why join in to conform, why not just join in..... Why do you need to think that they wouldn't want to join in because it is a fun time? Why aren't you screeching out on behalf of 'little people' because they could be offended by Santas little helpers.....

Seriously please stop with the nonsense...

 

[rynnor]

Seriously please stop with the nonsense...

Do you guys have any idea how badly this stuff plays outside of the Netherlands?

It's slowly coming to the attention of the mainstream media in the states and elsewhere - I would not be suprised to see this tradition die a sudden death in the immediate future tbh.

 

[Yoni]

Do you guys have any idea how badly this stuff plays outside of the Netherlands?

It's slowly coming to the attention of the mainstream media in the states and elsewhere - I would not be suprised to see this tradition die a sudden death in the immediate future tbh.

Who cares what the states think..... I really really miss my time in NL. I really hope their traditions survive.

 

[mr.Blacky]

stuff

Misreading that link a bit I think and also black people do dress up as that character.
The UK history does drives you to apply what you know about racism on traditions that may not have anything in common but black face paint. Although it may have a racist history in some way, I feel you cannot just superimpose your history atop another country’s tradition and say it’s the same.

 

[rynnor]

Although it may have a racist history in some way, I feel you cannot just superimpose your history atop another country’s tradition and say it’s the same.

I'm afraid it all goes back to slavery and slave stereotypes which were common throughout Europe - its strange to find a last vestige eeking its days out as a christmas tradition in modern europe but its real source is the same.

Edit - In fact Black Pete is actually not an ancient tradition at all but the invention of a teacher in the 1850s, Jan Schenkman who made up the story of bad children being carried off by St Nicholas Black servant.

Oh and the Dutch didnt ban slavery until 1863 so for servant read slave.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Do you guys have any idea how badly this stuff plays outside of the Netherlands?

It's slowly coming to the attention of the mainstream media in the states and elsewhere - I would not be suprised to see this tradition die a sudden death in the immediate future tbh.

So everyone should complain about Christmas, little people slaving in toy factories so a big fat white guy can be jolly? Yep nice to have a stereo type.
For the US people you have thanksgiving day, UK bonfire night (burning a catholic?) and we could go on.
As I said it is trying to link two things that have nothing in common except one thing.

 

[mr.Blacky]

I'm afraid it all goes back to slavery and slave stereotypes which were common throughout Europe - its strange to find a last vestige eeking its days out as a christmas tradition in modern europe but its real source is the same.

Sorry but again Sinterklaas is just as popular in the Netherlands/Belgium/Germany etc as ever, not really eeking its days out

As for the racism part :
Racism is usually defined as views, practices and actions reflecting the belief that humanity is divided into distinct biological groups called races and that members of a certain race share certain attributes which make that group as a whole less desirable, more desirable, inferior or superior.
Ask most Dutch people and they would say ( I believe and hope) that they do not link black Pete with being black. They just don't make the same link as you.

You might be right for the UK or US but sometimes other people/countries should just say: you have the right to think that but I do not agree and I think you are wrong.
There is a difference between being a character and being a caricature.

 

[DaGaffer]

Misreading that link a bit I think and also black people do dress up as that character.
The UK history does drives you to apply what you know about racism on traditions that may not have anything in common but black face paint. Although it may have a racist history in some way, I feel you cannot just superimpose your history atop another country’s tradition and say it’s the same.

Except in this case the golliwog thing and this actually share some origins. And just to be clear, the Dutch were at least as racist as the British going right back to the 1600s, probably more so, (the Dutch colonial legacy is pretty grim, and they also gave the world the delightful Afrikaaners). Even in recent times you only have to look at the oh-so-racially harmonious Dutch football team to see there's a lot of racial tension not far beneath the surface.

 

[rynnor]

Sorry but again Sinterklaas is just as popular in the Netherlands/Belgium/Germany etc as ever

You think the Germans support you on Black Peter?

http://www.spiegel.de/international...mas-santa-s-little-slave-helper-a-594674.html

Edit - I wasn't suggesting celebrating St Nicholas was going to end but I think his black slaves may soon be going free.

 

[mr.Blacky]

Oh and the Dutch didnt ban slavery until 1863 so for servant read slave.

What you think they didn't have servants before that time that were free?
Ouch prejudice much?
Look further and part of the legend is that Pete was a slave that was liberated by Sinterklaas.
But chose to serve him as he was a bit absentminded.
You would have made a better point saying that Sinterklaas was a pedo, after all the Sinterklaas character was often shown as being quite rough against bad children himself but that unbefitting a bishop

 

[rynnor]

Look further and part of the legend is that Pete was a slave that was liberated by Sinterklaas.
But chose to serve him as he was a bit absentminded.

The myth was updated overtime as slavery became unpalatable.

Edit - he used to be called 'Pieter me knecht’ = Peter my servant

 

[Cyradix]

Some people seem to think this multicultural society will just magically pop in to existence and everyone will be happy from that point on.
It is something we will be working on for several decades to come!
Some parts are now being dragged in to media to provoke outrage. That's how media works these days as it pulls in the viewers...
It's hard to find a tradition without a fault, where there isn't someone who can take offence...
Ban them all?? Or ban them in the order the media decides because they need a new outrage story?

Just let it be. It will evolve as our society evolves just like all the others traditions have so far.

 

[Scouse]

Frankly even the more benign second interpretation is fairly old school racist

I'm having an OT discussion about this very thing. Yes, it's got historically racist connotations - well over a century ago. But today it's just a festival where people dress up and throw sweets at kids.

Racism exists only in the minds of racists. Offence exists only in the eye of the beholder.


If 99% of the population see it as a harmless bit of traditional fun - with zero racial connotations - then, to them, it's not racist - and certainly won't have a bearing on how they see other people.

The question is, how many people have to complain before something that's completely harmless to the majority becomes a problem?

There's always someone who's going to take offence at something. Look at how many people complain about Top Gear. Should we take it off the air?

 

[mr.Blacky]

Not going to quote as that is getting tiresome.
DaGaffer "Both characters have" even your UK link states that they are two characters that have things in common. I can name several things that I have in common with a murderer that does not mean I am a murderer (no I never killed anyone!) and the term "golliwog" was used both as a reference to the children's toy and as a generic slang term for black people. That is not the case in the Netherlands, that is one of the differences.
As for Afrikaaners most were actually German, the elite were Dutch and were able to print there language on the rest. Yes the Dutch dominated the transatlantic slave trade for a while and no colonial history is ever good. I think they were average in cruelty, after all there is always Belgium or Portugal with their cruelty.
Not that I think what happened was okay.
As for the football team, no Dutch national football team that I remember has ever been harmonious. Best story was that one player cheated with cards (still not as bad as cheating with your m8's girlfriend ) racial trouble not as much, overpaid ego's more and even more then the English team.

rynnor different colours was tried and it just didn't work for some reason. Not sure why.
Also der spiegel as far as I understand from german friends is at the same level as the daily mail. But I don't read either so don't know for certain. But this part I know is not true

Throughout the celebrations, you can buy Black Pete cakes

Either lost in translation or I am blind.

 

[rynnor]

Some people seem to think this multicultural society will just magically pop in to existence and everyone will be happy from that point on.
It is something we will be working on for several decades to come!
Some parts are now being dragged in to media to provoke outrage. That's how media works these days as it pulls in the viewers...
It's hard to find a tradition without a fault, where there isn't someone who can take offence...
Ban them all?? Or ban them in the order the media decides because they need a new outrage story?

Just let it be. It will evolve as our society evolves just like all the others traditions have so far.

Lets be clear - people taking part and even blacking up are not racists but the stereotype it helps to preserve is.

If you stick your heads in the sand nothing will change but I dont believe that will happen - Suriname has banned it and its being dropped from traditional displays in Canada. In the UK they have had to modify it to blue faces rather than black - I imagine it will end up similarly in the Netherlands.

 

[mr.Blacky]

And before I go and sleep, yes I know you are trying to say if it talks like a duck walks like a duck and flies like duck it is a duck. But what I am trying to say is that a table has four legs a chair has four legs but a table and a chair are not the same things (crappy translations of 2 dutch sayings)

 

[Scouse]

Do you guys have any idea how badly this stuff plays outside of the Netherlands?

Be scared! Be scared!

People somewhere else on the planet have taken offence at your multiculturalally-celebrated kids-party. Be scared and STOP RIGHT NOW!

The myth was updated overtime as slavery became unpalatable.

So, by your own admission the history doesn't matter as it's all bullshit and happened in the past anyway.

It's therefore just a harmless tradition celebrated by the non-racist and racially-inclusive masses.


Us stick-up-our-arse westerners have taken offence and want to ban something happening in another country, in another culture.