[INFO] More updates to come (V1.0.5)

[Boggy]

I think your argument works both ways, you think people who have only played against BW and not played the class to a descent level gives valid input into its balancing argument ? I can say that playing against a class will give you a massively skewed opinion as opposed to playing the class through the game, personally.

Also the healer comment is a tenable one from game perspective, I do lots and lots of damage to the enemy and myself, ergo I need a healer to perform that role, balanced ? I think so

not to say that any other class doesnt need a healer to perform, just that I am literally bound to how well I can perform my role based on the number of heals I receive.

Where did I say we should limit the people who can contribute to discussion? Nowhere. My comment was in response to you saying people who haven't played a BW to high level don't know what they are talking about. Whereas my view is that playing a BW, playing against a BW and playing alongside a BW all give useful information on how the class performs.

On needing your own healer, think for a moment. If the game is designed to support this, what happens to all other classes? You need a ratio of 1::1 Healers to BWs, how the hell do you then balance the class distribution across the realm? You can't design a game that way.

If roughly 1 in 3 classes are healers, with a balanced distribution, the BW class needs to be designed to only require 1/3 of a healer. Of course, there are other complexities that affect it a bit, but that's the basic principle.

Also, how do you explain BWs not being at the top of the deaths in scenarios? You say people only look at damage, but I've pointed this out in clear terms and you have completely ignored it. You claim BWs need more healing, you claim they are the most squishy, but the evidence does not support your claims. That's because you only look at some of the factors.

 

[Xandax]

You're not thinking straight.

You think only playing a BW gives valid input into its balancing argument. What about all those people who have hours of experience playing against a BW or alongside a BW? You are suggesting that the only opinion that counts is the one practically guaranteed to be the most biased.
<snip>

Actually - the most biased would often be the ones who only play against the class. You also seem to indicate that those of us who play BW only play BWs. I play both a BW, with BWs and against BWs.

And while there are balance issues indeed - which there are with every class - they are far from as exaggerated as many whines seems to indicate, or even located where they point.
IMO the problem with the class lies completely elsewhere then the BW mechanics, but those get ignored in the whine-flood.

 

[Tiani]

I said BW need a healer to perform their role, I never said we need MORE heals and cant perform now because of this ? and more to the point what has this got to do with the issue at hand ? people are saying BW are OP I say they are not because they have the backlash effect on an already squishy char requiring heals to stay alive and do their job

what bearing does number of healers have on it ? All I was saying was that if there is no healers on Order during a scenario it will be hard for the BW to do much apart from some OK damage and die.

Also, we are ranged so obviously we wont die as much as tanks and MDPS who spend their time charging at people firing off spells, that doesnt mean we dont die, I die lots in most scenarios. An average game is about 3 -5 deaths for me. on the odd occasion where the pug is a perfect setup I wont die at all because I have a dedicated healer and Im standing at the back and they have no WE's.

And you didnt say limit the amount of people who can contribute to the discussion, neither did I. You say people who play BW will be biased, I state the same argument that destro spend all their time and the receiving end therefore are also biased, you wont get unbiased discussion on this for obvious reasons.

However sometime telling me that BW is EZ-MODE DOTTER lolerskates because he has a BW in T2 and has played against them isnt valid in my opinion.

 

[Gear]

I mean what is it with this forum, there is never any discussion without some asshat wading in with some lame remark, and when I shoot back its ME who catches the flak for it.

It's the daoc history

We like to keep up the good traditions like flaming and whinage

 

[`mongoose]

I'd love to see an addition to the end of battle stats - in fact I'd love it if those stats were truly delveable.

I'd like to know - Damage taken. % of Damage healer per class by healer

Damage to self taken out and placed in a seperate category (for bw./sorcs)

there's tons of stuff I'd like to see - just to help in those post fight circle jerks when you did well and post fight whinges when you've done badly

omfg that twat dacovale didn't heal me once but healed that poxy sorc 90% of the time... for instance



M

 

[Xandax]

I'd love to see an addition to the end of battle stats - in fact I'd love it if those stats were truly delveable.

I'd like to know - Damage taken. % of Damage healer per class by healer

Damage to self taken out and placed in a seperate category (for bw./sorcs)

there's tons of stuff I'd like to see - just to help in those post fight circle jerks when you did well and post fight whinges when you've done badly

omfg that twat dacovale didn't heal me once but healed that poxy sorc 90% of the time... for instance



M

I agree. There are many stats which are more useful and/or interesting then the ones shown.
The FPS type scorecard is pretty useless in situations where so many different factors plays into the equation, except IMO for the people who like to whine and needs some sort of foundation.
When I twice in a row in MT see a SM be the top number damage dealer and kill-blow on the score card, it isn't a leap of faith to start thinking that more factors then "overpoweredness" is involved in what goes on in a scenario.

 

[Boggy]

I said BW need a healer to perform their role, I never said we need MORE heals and cant perform now because of this ? and more to the point what has this got to do with the issue at hand ? people are saying BW are OP I say they are not because they have the backlash effect on an already squishy char requiring heals to stay alive and do their job

what bearing does number of healers have on it ? All I was saying was that if there is no healers on Order during a scenario it will be hard for the BW to do much apart from some OK damage and die.

What you said was, you need a healer practically all to yourself. Did you not say that? Am I hallucinating?

What has it got to do with the discussion? Well, since you said it I thought you would know, but in case your little brother typed it while you were making your lunch, your point was apparently that BWs should not have their damage nerfed, because although they have very high damage they also are more squishy than other people and are "almost completely ineffective without a healer."

Now I agree, this is not a valid point, and is best forgotten. I'm just a little surprised to see you also saying that 3 pages after you went to the trouble of making the point in the first place.

 

[Boggy]

Actually - the most biased would often be the ones who only play against the class.

Let's accept this point then, as well. The most biased are the people who play BWs and the people who play against BWs. Their opinions should be tempered with the acknowledgement that they are biased and count for less.

That leaves the opinions of people who don't play BWs and people who don't play destro being the ones that count for more. That's me. Thanks for your support.

 

[charl8tan]

HoT's are also on the move fire and forget and heal very effectively, but thats ok also because its heals not damage.

errr, one HoT on the move, which does (for me at least) 350 per tick (so 2100 over 15 seconds). Although easily possible to top the healing done by just rolling it across as many as friendlies as possible, it's not effective healing at all on it's own.

Additional to this we (Archmages) have a 1 second cast with HoT (mine does 780 or so on the initial hit, 315 or something per tick after) and a 3 second channel (on a 13 second CD) that effectively functions as a 3 second HoT until it's fixed (which will suck). The only other healing available is from 3 second casts, a big heal or a group heal, neither of which actually helps us save people really, merely delaying the inevitable for a few seconds at best.

The nerfs to healing are definitely uncalled for (yesyes in small scale stuff healers are a bit OP, but they always have been). As it stands right now you're lucky if one healer can outheal the damage of one DPS'er (and by that I mean full DPS classes, not tanks who want to slap things etc etc) which makes healing in WaR even more unattractive than previous games.

We should receive the listed changes to the big heal, as well as leaving the HoT's how they stand on Live if not buffing those also to make healers real healers and not some pussy wannabe muppet (it will also save me beating my keyboards out of frustration a little).

 

[Gahn]

errr, one HoT on the move, which does (for me at least) 350 per tick (so 2100 over 15 seconds). Although easily possible to top the healing done by just rolling it across as many as friendlies as possible, it's not effective healing at all on it's own.

Additional to this we (Archmages) have a 1 second cast with HoT (mine does 780 or so on the initial hit, 315 or something per tick after) and a 3 second channel (on a 13 second CD) that effectively functions as a 3 second HoT until it's fixed (which will suck). The only other healing available is from 3 second casts, a big heal or a group heal, neither of which actually helps us save people really, merely delaying the inevitable for a few seconds at best.

The nerfs to healing are definitely uncalled for (yesyes in small scale stuff healers are a bit OP, but they always have been). As it stands right now you're lucky if one healer can outheal the damage of one DPS'er (and by that I mean full DPS classes, not tanks who want to slap things etc etc) which makes healing in WaR even more unattractive than previous games.

We should receive the listed changes to the big heal, as well as leaving the HoT's how they stand on Live if not buffing those also to make healers real healers and not some pussy wannabe muppet (it will also save me beating my keyboards out of frustration a little).

Absolutely.

 

[Xandax]

Let's accept this point then, as well. The most biased are the people who play BWs and the people who play against BWs. Their opinions should be tempered with the acknowledgement that they are biased and count for less.

That leaves the opinions of people who don't play BWs and people who don't play destro being the ones that count for more. That's me. Thanks for your support.

LOL - failed logic is always welcome on an internet forum.

 

[Raven]

errr, one HoT on the move, which does (for me at least) 350 per tick (so 2100 over 15 seconds). Although easily possible to top the healing done by just rolling it across as many as friendlies as possible, it's not effective healing at all on it's own.

Additional to this we (Archmages) have a 1 second cast with HoT (mine does 780 or so on the initial hit, 315 or something per tick after) and a 3 second channel (on a 13 second CD) that effectively functions as a 3 second HoT until it's fixed (which will suck). The only other healing available is from 3 second casts, a big heal or a group heal, neither of which actually helps us save people really, merely delaying the inevitable for a few seconds at best.

The nerfs to healing are definitely uncalled for (yesyes in small scale stuff healers are a bit OP, but they always have been). As it stands right now you're lucky if one healer can outheal the damage of one DPS'er (and by that I mean full DPS classes, not tanks who want to slap things etc etc) which makes healing in WaR even more unattractive than previous games.

We should receive the listed changes to the big heal, as well as leaving the HoT's how they stand on Live if not buffing those also to make healers real healers and not some pussy wannabe muppet (it will also save me beating my keyboards out of frustration a little).

I will agree with what you say about the hots but a major part of playing a healer in a game like WAR, which copies a lot from WoW is to predict the damage. Any mong can stand there spamming a heal or playing whack a mole with raid frames but the decent healers will predict the damage and know what is going on around them, who is likely to take damage and when. I have been playing a holy pally for 2 years now, there is so much more to the healing than say playing a druid, or a cleric.

 

[charl8tan]

I will agree with what you say about the hots but a major part of playing a healer in a game like WAR, which copies a lot from WoW is to predict the damage. Any mong can stand there spamming a heal or playing whack a mole with raid frames but the decent healers will predict the damage and know what is going on around them, who is likely to take damage and when. I have been playing a holy pally for 2 years now, there is so much more to the healing than say playing a druid, or a cleric.

Yea, I can very much agree with that. However the system in WaR doesn't really allow for it. Even loading up someone with Magical Infusion + HoT's as they're on their way in, then pre-emptively dropping bigs heals on their heads leads to them still falling over dead....albeit 7 seconds later instead of 3 (with whack-a-mole healing).

In the main the DPS has the abilities to do their job, whereas healers do not. There's healing reductions (even 100% zomg!), knockdowns, knockbacks, silences even bloody ranged knockdowns for christs sake, throw on top of that very high damage morale abilities and the healers in reply have basically what I listed previously, though throw onto that shields (which absorb bugger all) and our own morales too (which are oh so awesome with the aforementioned healing debuffs...). As a healer I feel that there isn't enough variety to my abilities for the differing situations, and this nerf to the healing done (both Healing Energy and the instant HoT of every class) is plain ridiculous.

As far as I'm aware, the majority of healers were in the main screaming out for fixes to our currently broken things, and although not happy with the state of healing, wanted those fixes before even thinking of buffs. Let alone nerfs...

 

[Boggy]

LOL - failed logic is always welcome on an internet forum.

Go on then, where's the logical flaw?

It WAS a joke btw, since as I said previously I think all people's opinions should count and I only even said that cos I hate people saying things like "Oh you only got a T2 BW, you must know nothing."

But still, you made the content-free LOL post, so if you wanna point out how the logic is flawed within my post, go right ahead.

 

[Boggy]

I will agree with what you say about the hots but a major part of playing a healer in a game like WAR, which copies a lot from WoW is to predict the damage. Any mong can stand there spamming a heal or playing whack a mole with raid frames but the decent healers will predict the damage and know what is going on around them, who is likely to take damage and when. I have been playing a holy pally for 2 years now, there is so much more to the healing than say playing a druid, or a cleric.

That's not true. WoW healing is exactly the same as every other MMO healing. Sure, situational awareness makes a better healer, but only a small part of that is predicting who needs healing (which is only possible at all in a very, very limited way), and much more of it is knowing where to stand for LoS and range, knowing who is most important to keep alive and who can soak up some damage (or even wait for a rezz if they have to). It's also knowing when to shield, when to HoT, when to group, when to single target. There's a hell of a lot to being a healer, but it counted just as much in DAoC as it did in WoW and it does in WAR too.

If anything WoW de-skilled the healing part of healing. Holy Paladins are overloaded with options giving them so many tools they can make the wrong decision and still come out on top and Resto Shamans are one trick ponies whose trick makes healing easy.

I'm still not sure where WAR stands at the moment. I like the fact it gives you a range of healing options without making them impossible to mess up, and it is definitely a challenge keeping a group alive if you got evenly matched opponents, but ... it does feel a little formulaic. Maybe that's inevitable for healing classes.

 

[Leel]

Ok, didn't read all, but I think they should just fix resists on crits instead of lowering crit chance for bw/sorc. As it is now, your resists are only applied to the base damage of the spell (including modification for int and spec level). If you crit, the extra crit damage is not mitigated by resists at all.
Also, it seems all your resists are 26% lower than the actual resist shown by the tooltip when you hover the mouse over that resist type.
Dps from melee weapons also seem to be 26 lower than you would expect from taking your weapon dps and adding your unstyled bonus dps from str. I didn't do test with bonus style dps and how it effects melee styles.

 

[Ogen]

I think the gender is female in this case.

Then i pity what ever poor bloke ends up in her arms..

 

[Tiani]

Then i pity what ever poor bloke ends up in her arms..

I dont think that was quite personal enough to be honest, perhapse you should try again. I have a boyfriend and he is VERY happy to be 'in my arms' tyvm

you know people who bring personal shit into an online game discussion really should get a life, tard.

-rep

 

[pikeh]

you know people who bring personal shit into an online game discussion really should get a life, tard.

-rep

Pot fucking kettle black maybe?

Not so much recently but in the near-past you have been the one to bring Real life stuff into the discussion, often insulting everyone who uses this forum.
Whilst I hate personal attacks on a forum and Ogen was wrong to bring that stuff into it, you should probably look at your past record before you open your mouth.

/edit oh and just to remind you;

Dont worry about these tards BO, they are well known for being pedantic pieces of shit who just wanna crap over anyone posting anything they either dont agree with or have no anwer for. Especially the second poster. Well known twat

and lol at the dont reproduce comment ? least he gets the chance which is probably more than you will ever get in your entire life

I duno how you can defend such blatent disregard for peoples feelings and opinions but whatever. This forum will never change, populated by the scrapings from the bottom of the barrel of society, all congregated in one forum!

I think it would be best if you threw yourself off a cliff but we dont always get what we want do we ?

 

[Tiani]

Pot fucking kettle black maybe?

Not so much recently but in the near-past you have been the one to bring Real life stuff into the discussion, often insulting everyone who uses this forum.
Whilst I hate personal attacks on a forum and Ogen was wrong to bring that stuff into it, you should probably look at your past record before you open your mouth.

I think you will find that I dont bring anything personal into discussion about a game, and the only time I have is because I have been attacked first.

Only time I have insulted anyone is because people constantly decide to jump down my throat for any post I make, it pisses me off, I snap back.

Any of those kinds of posts have been made in the 'off topic' forum and are about real life issues, not discussion about a friggin game.

Show me in this thread where I insulted him or anyone else for that matter.

 

[pikeh]

I think you will find that I dont bring anything personal into discussion about a game, and the only time I have is because I have been attacked first.

Only time I have insulted anyone is because people constantly decide to jump down my throat for any post I make, it pisses me off, I snap back.

Any of those kinds of posts have been made in the 'off topic' forum and are about real life issues, not discussion about a friggin game.

Show me in this thread where I insulted him or anyone else for that matter.

I don't really see why you are differentiating from game discussion and Off-topic stuff. It's all based around peoples opinions and your still coming across as someone who is angry at the world and your obviously one of
the 'scrapings from the bottom of the barrel of society' as you still read/post here.

/edit and I said in the near-past. Not in this thread no, but in others.

 

[Tiani]

posting out of context crap in an attempt to make me look bad is futile, those posts all make me look like I am the big bad girl who just flames people, if you and actually read the threads you are quoting people might get why I was saying the things I said in those particular threads.

I mean some guy posts about how he is annoyed that his wife's operatio got messed up and then in the next posts some guy is basically calling him a twat and telling him to stfu, and Im the bad one for calling him a cock lol.

All of which are about real life issues I feel passionately about I.E Immigrant Workers and Asylum Seakers and the state of the NHS not some silly computer game, All of my negative posts are completely provoked, go through my post count again for the 4 - 5 negative posts you find (all of which are in offtopic after being goaded) you will find 20 positive helpfull and friendly ones.

I rest my case.

And I was refering to the people in off-topic with the 'scrapings of the barrell'

edit

Half of those posts people rep'd me for lol so maybe I was possibly in the right ?

 

[pikeh]

posting out of context crap in an attempt to make me look bad is futile, those posts all make me look like I am the big bad girl who just flames people, if you and actually read the threads you are quoting people might get why I was saying the things I said in those particular threads.

I mean some guy posts about how he is annoyed that his wife's operatio got messed up and then in the next posts some guy is basically calling him a twat and telling him to stfu, and Im the bad one for calling him a cock lol.

All of which are about real life issues I feel passionately about I.E Immigrant Workers and Asylum Seakers and the state of the NHS not some silly computer game, All of my negative posts are completely provoked, go through my post count again for the 4 - 5 negative posts you find (all of which are in offtopic after being goaded) you will find 20 positive helpfull and friendly ones.

I rest my case.

And I was refering to the people in off-topic with the 'scrapings of the barrell'

I'm not going to wade through your posts, no.

The thing is if you make comments on a forum for people to jump off a cliff or that we are the bottom of society, then I'm not inclined to listen to any other points you have.

Ever since you have registered here you make insulting posts, often referring to how sad people are IRL.

Thats why you have people jump down your throat on every opinionated post you make.

 

[Tiani]

I'm not going to wade through your posts, no.

The thing is if you make comments on a forum for people to jump off a cliff or that we are the bottom of society, then I'm not inclined to listen to any other points you have.

it makes little difference to me if you are inclined to listen to me or not, but why wade into the argument and post crap if you are prepared to back up what you are trying to say.

He attacked me personally, unprovoked for no reason at all, and you want to drag up a few select posts of mine basically saying I am just as bad, then when I challenge you, you tell me you are not inclined to listen to me ? Fine but why involve yourself in the first place.

Again I say, yea I did tell a guy to throw himself of a cliff, he spent an entire thread slagging some innocent bloke off who was just pissed off that his wifes operation hadnt gone the way he wanted it too (not to mention the collection of cheerleadrs backing him up on his so called 'sarcasm') and then proceeded to tell me to 'crawl back into the hole I came from' so your dam right I will respond with something equally as disrespectful and insulting.

You cant pick and choose, you wanna involve youself in my argument and take little snippets of threads to further back your claim without actually examining all the evidence. It doesnt work like that, and like I said half the posts you are reffering too people added to my rep for, probably because they are just as sick and tired as I am of the selected few people in off-topic who just want to argue and piss people off at every given opportunity.

 

[Tiani]

Ever since you have registered here you make insulting posts, often referring to how sad people are IRL.

Thats why you have people jump down your throat on every opinionated post you make.

again look at my post history and come back, you are talking crap.

 

[pikeh]

Actually I did go through your old posts. The first two and a half pages of them are insulting people at GOA, calling them retards etc.

Helpful and friendly!

 

[Tiani]

and directed at whom ? my fellow player ? my fellow forum user ?

Now at a company that left me sitting on a beta key for a week and not being able to play the game I have been watching, and you know what, maybe check the entire thread and see how many more people are insulting GoA ? I can bet lots.

I am also pretty sure I can wade through your post history, and select the posts I would like to use to make you look bad, because no doubt there are plenty of negative posts in there from you ?

 

[pikeh]

and directed at whom ? my fellow player ? my fellow forum user ?

Now at a company that left me sitting on a beta key for a week and not being able to play the game I have been watching, and you know what, maybe check the entire thread and see how many more people are insulting GoA ? I can bet lots.

I am also pretty sure I can wade through your post history, and select the posts I would like to use to make you look bad, because no doubt there are plenty of negative posts in there from you ?

Most of the negative posts I make are based around people that choose to insult a company and individuals IRL for letting OB be late by a day or so.

you know people who bring personal shit into an online game discussion really should get a life, tard.

You honestly think that because a lot of other people are insulting GOA in that thread that makes it okay for you to do it also?
Those posts were made a couple of days/hours whatever after you joined the forum.

Anyway, I'm done with this now.

 

[Tiani]

No I make it ok because I was annoyed, I apologised for my conduct in that thread and the apology was accepted by the moderator who proceeded to add to my rep for acknowledging I was out of order and apologising publically.

I think you aught to get your facts straight before you enter into a debate with me that, for the record, had nothing to do with you in the first place.

Nice work derailing the thread though

 

[`mongoose]

That's not true. WoW healing is exactly the same as every other MMO healing. Sure, situational awareness makes a better healer, but only a small part of that is predicting who needs healing (which is only possible at all in a very, very limited way), and much more of it is knowing where to stand for LoS and range, knowing who is most important to keep alive and who can soak up some damage (or even wait for a rezz if they have to). It's also knowing when to shield, when to HoT, when to group, when to single target. There's a hell of a lot to being a healer, but it counted just as much in DAoC as it did in WoW and it does in WAR too.

At the danger of going off topic (considering the way this thread is headed we're possibly best off taking the "let's talk about healing" tangent). I agree with you in some ways here.

Now I certainly wouldn't consider myself uber - lvl 39, full heal spec, 750 wp in my rvr gear. Normally get around 400-500 per tick with my hot, base of 500 but usually crit for 800 followed by additional ticks on my 1 sec heal and 2 sec group heal, 3 sec big heal that base heals 1500 - usually crits for 2000-2400. (I use the tactics discipline (+80wp) Extra Special mushrooms (10% healing crit chance I think?) and Don't feel Nuthin (is that the name - the tactic that gives bubbled people +15% more damage).

For me the "flash" heal is my buy time quick heal which just allows people that bit of time to get safe/survive a dot etc etc. it's fairly easy to predict damage. If an engineer just magnetted the sorcs you know they need bubbling and as much healing as you can give. If the marauder is heading for the BW you know he needs a bit of love and maybe a bubble if it's up to help dps em down quicker.

It's all about looking at who's doing what and making sure you're on the ball. I find that Sorcs need constant hot's spamming just to alleviate their backlash. I find only the big heal keeps people under attack alive. Giving that sorc 2500 health is often the difference that allows them to nuke their attacker down. Especially when combined with HOT + Bubble + big heal.

My only real issue nine times out of ten is not knowing when to gtfo - I tend to hang around too long trying to keep epople who are doomed alive and then getting ganked by the pain train as it steam rollers through.

If anything WoW de-skilled the healing part of healing. Holy Paladins are overloaded with options giving them so many tools they can make the wrong decision and still come out on top and Resto Shamans are one trick ponies whose trick makes healing easy.

Totally agree. I'm very concerned to see the same old wow mods appear for warhammer. The debuff alerts, the scrolling text that warns when people are casting against you and what they are casting etc etc. These helpful "mods" are the death of fun in games like this, in the hands of an average player they're annoying. In the hands of people who already know what they're doing and how the mechanics work they're incredibly annoying.

M