[INFO] More updates to come (V1.0.5)

[Shike]

whining BW's gives me a warm fuzzy feeling tbh Giff more!

OnTopic, anyone know how much the chosenchanges affects chosens? I know they have alot of problems with their auras atm, based on INT and giving enemy benefit instead of the chosen and such.

 

[Jaberwocky]

whining BW's gives me a warm fuzzy feeling tbh Giff more!

OnTopic, anyone know how much the chosenchanges affects chosens? I know they have alot of problems with their auras atm, based on INT and giving enemy benefit instead of the chosen and such.

Here you go:

e) The Chosen seemed to have a higher number of potential (we haven't confirmed them all yet) bugs but in the meantime, we will make the following changes:

Convert Blast Wave, Bane Shield and Quake to magic attacks that use STR instead of INT for bonus damage
Push Aura code fix up that makes twisting easier

 

[Jupitus]

Pikeh and Tiani - drop it!

Sheez, like a dog with a bone the 2 of you.

Folks, please enjoy this thread as a classy example of how NOT to post.

Now, behave or the ban hammer is coming out to play

 

[pikeh]

Pikeh and Tiani - drop it!

Sheez, like a dog with a bone the 2 of you.

Folks, please enjoy this thread as a classy example of how NOT to post.

Now, behave or the ban hammer is coming out to play

Sorry Jup, and sorry for de-railing the thread all.

 

[dee777]

First of all, thanks for trying to bring the thread back to topic. I thought it was on its way to the clicky.

I'm very concerned to see the same old wow mods appear for warhammer. The debuff alerts, the scrolling text that warns when people are casting against you and what they are casting etc etc. These helpful "mods" are the death of fun in games like this, in the hands of an average player they're annoying. In the hands of people who already know what they're doing and how the mechanics work they're incredibly annoying.

I agree and disagree with you at the same time.

The mods you describe (and others too of course) are borderline cheating to me and I hope the customization options in WAR prohibit reprogramming most of those. Customization should not let you do things, that are impossible with the standard system. So while bigger and more readable (de)bufficons would be alright, a mod that automatically cancels your spell if the person you targeted still has more than 8 seconds left on the HOT you were trying to apply would be bad IMO.

On the other hand, leveling the playfield has its merits as well. Some people just are more skillful than others and it is ok that they have an edge over the not-so-skilled players. However if the gap gets too big, thats bad news for any game as it cuts off the stream of fresh blood into the playerbase. Mods have the potential to help mediocre players against decent ones.

If people get rolled on a daily basis, they will stop to play. This was most obvious to me when WoW implemented battlegrounds and people just /AFKed out when they met a decent guildgroup, because they knew they were unlikely to win (a bad habit that sadly starts to take shape in WAR as well BTW). It even was so bad that at some time there were no matches for certain BGs, because people didnt sign up unless they set up a decent group beforehand.

DAoC had similar problems, because rerolling a toon did not only mean grinding to 50 (a reasonable bar for entering RvR) but also reToAing and grinding some RRs. Essentially for a new player it was almost impossible to be competitive without putting a whole lot of time/effort into the game. Later, when you could buy the stuff with bountypoints it was too late already. The bar for new people was too high and those that left were not replaced by new players.

WoW has from the start been very careful to not walk that path BTW. They attract more new customers, then they lose.

Another example is EvE online. Still only a little percentage of the population engages in PvP even tho you dont lose very much anymore. An insurance system and inflation in general managed to get people into new ships within very little time if they got blown up. Back in the days you had to mine ore for days to get enough cash to replace an exploded battleship which lead to only very few fights at all. And even with nowadays easy accessibility of new gear, most people only show up for a fight when they have higher numbers thus thinking they have the better chance to win.

Sorry for the wall of text, I think I got carried away a bit and moved a bit off topic again, but I hope you got my point anyway. ><

 

[pikeh]

Nice points Dee

But as I see it, does anyone go into the game expecting to be an instant expert? There are always going to be people who have a knack for picking up things faster than others, and they are the ones that can use classes to their full effect. Its different in MMORPGS, to lets say, FPS games - if you are good at one, then your bound to be good at the next. The mechanic shift between MMORPGS is a lot bigger than that.

I don't think the use of mods to 'help' worse players is a good idea; it leads to much bigger problems, and what's there to stop the good players using the same mods, making them ever more effective? People have mentioned some good GG's using radar in DAoC, for example.

For me as a solo stealther in DAoC, it was easier to choose what players to fight, rather than classes. I stood a fair chance (with a good pop) against all classes (a few exceptions). I soon got to know 'oh, I've killed him before, I can do it again'. In WAR, however; there aren't any players that really stick out as being good. I'm sure there are some, but to me its all the same - level 31 BW plays the same as the next level 31 BW, for example.

DAoC had the balance between time invested/skill, you had to be really on the ball with mezz/stuns whatever. When you had an off day in DAoC there was nothing you could do except try again later when the hangover had gone.

With WAR it seems if you have an off day, its due to what classes/groups rolled into the same Scen as you, which is why I'm so eager for Orvr to pick up more.
I don't really know where I'm going with this, Guess I'm just getting the ol' nostalgia feeling from DAoC.

 

[Jaberwocky]

The debuff alerts, the scrolling text that warns when people are casting against you and what they are casting etc etc. These helpful "mods" are the death of fun in games like this, in the hands of an average player they're annoying.

The API makes it imposable to tell what a target is casting or see their cast bar, there is also a default SCT in the game.

Some people see all add-ons as cheats, others as a way to customise the game or enhances it to avoid annoying features or bugs. Most of the argument against modding that keep cropping up seem to be more to do with some peoples general ignorance of what can or allowed to be done.

The default buff and debuff display leaves a lot to be desired and is possibly one of the few weakness in the default ui, in my 5 years of playing wow the modding and ui development side or the game became as enjoyable as some of the in game activities and helps draw a substantial number of people to the game, take a look at the wow ace and curse forge communities as examples.

 

[Afran]

The DAoCBuffBar addon is nice

 

[Gear]

Nice points Dee
For me as a solo stealther in DAoC, it was easier to choose what players to fight, rather than classes. I stood a fair chance (with a good pop) against all classes (a few exceptions). I soon got to know 'oh, I've killed him before, I can do it again'. In WAR, however; there aren't any players that really stick out as being good. I'm sure there are some, but to me its all the same - level 31 BW plays the same as the next level 31 BW, for example.

Daoc was old enough to have developed (at least on dyvet) a recognisable community. Give it some time and I think you'll see that a level 31 BW is not going to be the same as another. Already there are some amazing differences you can spot regarding positioning, picking up targets, moving on the field etc.

 

[`mongoose]

The API makes it imposable to tell what a target is casting or see their cast bar, there is also a default SCT in the game.

Some people see all add-ons as cheats, others as a way to customise the game or enhances it to avoid annoying features or bugs. Most of the argument against modding that keep cropping up seem to be more to do with some peoples general ignorance of what can or allowed to be done.

The default buff and debuff display leaves a lot to be desired and is possibly one of the few weakness in the default ui, in my 5 years of playing wow the modding and ui development side or the game became as enjoyable as some of the in game activities and helps draw a substantial number of people to the game, take a look at the wow ace and curse forge communities as examples.

There's a massive difference between improving the UI and having a huge message that flashes on the screen when a certain dot or morale ability has been applied to you.

THat's just one thing that's available now. Now granted I've not gone into it to greatly but I did do some searches before I made the complaint. I don't feel that everything should be vanilla - I do think things that turn the game into a one buton macro mashfest are bad.

I realise we've got extremes there but I'd be much happier if things like SCT were unavailable full stop. You shouldn't see what ability hits you imo - just how much damage you took. Maybe I'm just an old grumpy pants in that regard.

M

 

[`mongoose]

Another example is EvE online. Still only a little percentage of the population engages in PvP even tho you dont lose very much anymore. An insurance system and inflation in general managed to get people into new ships within very little time if they got blown up. Back in the days you had to mine ore for days to get enough cash to replace an exploded battleship which lead to only very few fights at all. And even with nowadays easy accessibility of new gear, most people only show up for a fight when they have higher numbers thus thinking they have the better chance to win.<

Most of what you said I agreed with barring this and the wow comments - but then I'm very anti wow. Great PVE experience - shocking pvp.

Eve on the other hand is a bit of a false economy. Losing a ship hurts - no matter what. It's what I loved about the game.

Yes a tech1 fit BS with cheap mods will be almost entirely covered by the insurance (so you only lose the insurance cost) but very few people consider T1 base fit to be the competitive, if you can't fit T2 most people fit named and this is where the prices start skyrocketing. In fact - A full T2 fit is cheaper to fit and will result in less loss than a best named fit.

With t2 ships they hurt full stop when they go pop and they comprise most roaming gangs these days (or did when I paused my eve account for a war sabbatical). This is before we even factor in rigs. Very few of my ships were unrigged. They performed better as a result but when you fight skilled pvpers you're always going to have the odd loss.

I was an FC in Insurgency for a while - and then the doomed RQM alliance. I'm currently on shore leave to have a bit of fun in War. I have to admit I'm yearning for a bit of a return to hit the north again tho.

M

 

[Muylaetrix]

...Only because you are used to being able to keep combustion up. As I understand it you won't be able to keep that permanently up after the patch so you have less to worry about from taking damage from your own spells. You'll get those big nukes off less often, but do higher general damage. Overall it will lower your DPS (long overdue) but won't make the class ineffective but your base DPS without crit will go up.

higher general damage ? i seem to have missed that in the text. higher dps without crit ? not sure about that tbh.

as it is, there is no way to make an estimate about what the new chances to crit will be. on paper it looks like a major nerf... dunno how it will turn out in reality i guess. but with a 60 % chance to do 700 ish damage to myself at level 34 with each spell i cast, nerfing the crit rate without adjusting the chance for backlashes or the amount of damage we receive from those backlashes might break the two classes who rely on the combustion/dark magic mechanic. as it is, on some targets, i do more damage to myself already than on my target. there are already too much targets that can never be killed without having a good healer behind me. it ain`t fun to nuke an IB that is not being healed and see your own health drop faster than his health. i guess we`ll just have to wait and see how it turns out.

 

[Muylaetrix]

Did you ever stop to think why so many people single out BWs? Especially when it's much more usual for people to hate stealthers in these kinds of game. Could it possibly be that their damage mechanic (note mechanic NOT damage per se) is considerably more powerful that any other class in the game.

i won`t disagree with the fact that sorcs and BW`s have a much larger damage potential than any other class in the game. we have also more drawbacks than any other class in the game. we have the worst armour, lowest hp, and we kill ourselves every time that a healer is not paying attention or we are simply ineffective due to having to spend huge amounts of time away from the fight, trying to regain the hp we lost by doing the only thing we can do, and that is doing damage.

i played a few other caster past level 30 and every single one had a much larger array of tools and a better survivability than the sorc/BW. if they nerf our damage output without improving our survivability, i guess that very few sorcs/bw`s will still be around a few weeks after 1.05.

i think the extra damage that sorcs/bw`s do is balanced out by these classes drawbacks.

if a sorcs backlash damage wouldn`t be counted towards the totall damage done in scenarios and the deaths we suffer at our own hands wouldn`t be included as `kills`, those statistics we get at the end of a scenario wouldn`t be half as spectacular as they look now.

 

[Muylaetrix]

All of the things you say apply equally to the Sorc except the Sorc can't do their damage on the run, I'll repeat its not the amount of dmage BWs do it's the mechanic by which they do it. It's all too easy to do the damage on the move and also to only come into range briefly, while a Sorc is standing around trying to fire a nuke that doesn't land cos you moved during the cast time.

Sorcs key spells are very good but very situational, BWs are very good in pretty much all situations.

biggest difference between sorcs and bw`s is the bw`s ability to inflict huge damage WHILE MOVING while a sorc has to remain stationary to do huge damage. there doesn`t seem to be a lot of things that a sorc can do better than a BW, but there are a few things that a BW is MUCH better at than a sorc.

 

[civy]

This whole patch baffles me. Dmg is going up accross the board and healing is being nerfed. It's starting to look like the idea is unload as much dmg as you can/release and run back.

I may be wrong on this but I guess sorcs will be the new dps kings.

Word of Pain: This ability is no longer a Willpower reduction, and will now lower the target’s Spirit resistance instead. The effect will last 15 seconds and deal a large amount of damage after the effect wears off. The need to stack this ability has been removed, and it now has a 10 second cooldown time.

Dont know about you but spirit seems to be my worst resist. Itemisation seems to be stacked with corp/elem resists.

A race between sorcs and BW to tab dot I guess.
.

 

[Roo Stercogburn]

Base damage from what I can see Civy. Crit based super-nukes and the ability to keep combustion/dark magic based overpowered damage at 100% is being reduced.

At least thats the the way I've understood it.

 

[dee777]

Good stuff

Maybe it didnt came across clearly enough. I completely agree that players should be able to increase their playerskill and that should reflect directly to your ingame toon if they did so. I just think that it is dangerous to let the gap between new players with little skill/items/stuff and old players with good skill/items/stuff become too wide. Of course addons should not be the only tool to level the playfield, but I think it can be part of the solution. Epic-ubah items are another part. Dont create those at all IMO.

Back when ToA was short before release Mythic said that they wanted the MLs and artifacts not to have a decisive impact on the game. Well, they failed on the implementation part, but the idea behind it is very good.

 

[dee777]

Eve on the other hand is a bit of a false economy. Losing a ship hurts - no matter what. It's what I loved about the game.

Yes a tech1 fit BS with cheap mods will be almost entirely covered by the insurance (so you only lose the insurance cost) but very few people consider T1 base fit to be the competitive, if you can't fit T2 most people fit named and this is where the prices start skyrocketing. In fact - A full T2 fit is cheaper to fit and will result in less loss than a best named fit.

With t2 ships they hurt full stop when they go pop and they comprise most roaming gangs these days (or did when I paused my eve account for a war sabbatical). This is before we even factor in rigs. Very few of my ships were unrigged. They performed better as a result but when you fight skilled pvpers you're always going to have the odd loss.

Fighting in EvE is a complicated beast. Yes, you are right with roaming gangs. T2 roaming gangs especially nanoed ones (I hope the recent speed nerf helps here) were expensive and a pain in the butt, if you fought with them or against them. However you could easily create throwaway T1 cruiser gangs which were a lot of fun and if you used a clone without implants they were super cheap. Most of the time those gangs are done to create an unnerving presence anyway. Having a POS nearby with a couple of hundred fitted cruisers helps of course build such a presence. Strength in numbers.

Its even more obivous when fighting in battleships. Brawl BSes with remote armor reppers work very well. And they are inexpensive too. You can even fit 2nd or 3rd best named stuff for nearly no extra cost at all.

You might have guessed it by now, but I was in FOOM and we built the BRUCE alliance. An alliance of mostly lowskillpoints new players. Blob was the only way possible to compete. And we did compete well. BRUCE fell apart because of infighting about ISK when we grew too fast, not because of PL, the Goons, BoB or whatever forum warrior would like to take responsibility for that.

Better fitted ships perform better. No questions asked. But x T1 ships outperform x/2 T2 ships as soon as x is a bigger number. With the abundance of titans nowadays (BoB has 10 confirmed ones by now?), this point is pretty much moot anyway. And with deep pockets like some of the oldschool corps/toons have as well. BTW, dont get me started on the server hardware, defenders with preloaded grid and aggressive fighters/drones already out have clearly an edge over any aggressors. Desync and multi minute lag and such...

All that babble is partly besides the point anyway. My point was, if the bar to successful PvP is too high, you cut your competition and in the end PvP itself. Back in the days when you had to mine for a full day to get into your next BS you simply didnt fight a lot of those even tho they were bugged and faaaar too good. Same today. Since T2 polycarbs are insane expensive, you only see people with insane deep pockets to fit them. On the other hand you have the new faction warfare. People happily bang their heads at each other in lowsec because they usually fit comparably inexpensive ships/fittings. Low bar -> lots PvP.

God, I created another wall of text. Please bear with me.