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Danya
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- #91
If you're crap at games go play a tank, minstrels and infiltrators are NOT easy to play, being a good class and being easy to play are complete different things.
If you're crap at games go play a tank, minstrels and infiltrators are NOT easy to play, being a good class and being easy to play are complete different things.
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Vell
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- #92
No it doesn't. It needs to be stealth-skill dependent. If someone only has 1 in stealth, even if they're lvl50, they should still get spotted at max range. Of course, if you have stealth 50, then you shouldn't be spotted until you are at close range.
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old.LandShark
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- #93
Stealthers, especially minstrel and assassins, are THE hardest classes to play successfully in RvR, bar none. Take a look at a minstrel's interface, and then tell me it doesn't require at least some simple manual coordination to play properly. Assassins... well, you think they've got it easy, but then you only notice the one-shotted casters from a successful perf; no-one comes to a forum yelling NERF ASSASSINS when an inf fucks up his perf and gets beaten to a pulp by a bezerker in 2 seconds flat
On the subject of see hidden, currently stealth works thus:
If you are a non-assassin, your range to detect a stealthed char is...
(Your level - stealther's stealth spec)x20 + 125
For an assassin to detect a stealther, it's the same but x50 instead of x20. Thus a minstrel/archer with 50 stealth spec is detectable from the same range as an assassin. Incidentally, 125units = about a briton/celt horse's length.
See hidden imho should just add a bonus to the base range of 125; say, 6x your stealth spec. Thus an assassin with see hidden and 50stealth could see a minstrel with 50stealth at a range of (6x50)+125 = 425...
Whatever; that's just one solution but basically it needs to be changed so that a lvl5 assassin with 1stealth and 8 leeched RA points, can't negate an entire specline with 50points in it.
And klavrynd, don't try to apply real-world logic to this fantasty game. OK, so i WOULDN'T be able to go undetected if i was waving a banjo around and wearing jingly armor - but if you put on cloth and waved a stick, you wouldn't be able to nuke greys (let's say BABIES
) with huge fireballs, would you now.
Would you?
Oh....oh god... no.... NOOOOYARGH
*combusts*
On the subject of see hidden, currently stealth works thus:
If you are a non-assassin, your range to detect a stealthed char is...
(Your level - stealther's stealth spec)x20 + 125
For an assassin to detect a stealther, it's the same but x50 instead of x20. Thus a minstrel/archer with 50 stealth spec is detectable from the same range as an assassin. Incidentally, 125units = about a briton/celt horse's length.
See hidden imho should just add a bonus to the base range of 125; say, 6x your stealth spec. Thus an assassin with see hidden and 50stealth could see a minstrel with 50stealth at a range of (6x50)+125 = 425...
Whatever; that's just one solution but basically it needs to be changed so that a lvl5 assassin with 1stealth and 8 leeched RA points, can't negate an entire specline with 50points in it.
And klavrynd, don't try to apply real-world logic to this fantasty game. OK, so i WOULDN'T be able to go undetected if i was waving a banjo around and wearing jingly armor - but if you put on cloth and waved a stick, you wouldn't be able to nuke greys (let's say BABIES
) with huge fireballs, would you now.Would you?
Oh....oh god... no.... NOOOOYARGH
*combusts*
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Solid
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- #94
Agree with Vell
BTW who said if u r crap at games play a Minstrel? are you insane? you seen hoe many weapon swaps they need and how many hotbars they use? its crazy, I struggle with 2 hotbars, sometimes 3 for duels, these guys regularly use 3-4 hotbars.
BTW who said if u r crap at games play a Minstrel? are you insane? you seen hoe many weapon swaps they need and how many hotbars they use? its crazy, I struggle with 2 hotbars, sometimes 3 for duels, these guys regularly use 3-4 hotbars.
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old.Enigma
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- #95
I'm sorry if you cant press keys in a sequence dont play games at all.
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Flimgoblin
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- #96
Please, don't
then I might accidentally group with them and expect people to be able to tank properly...oh what's that? it takes skill to tank properly too? wow! imagine that
It's easy to level up a minstrel (post lvl 10)- join group, powersong, afk.
When you get booted, join another.
You won't make many friends but you can level that way.
(not saying you have to or should do though
)
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old.LandShark
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- #97
Enigma.... lol, do you take yourself seriously?
A sequence of keys? Rofl.... well yes, fair enough, but then being a musical virtuoso is after all nothing more than a few finger movements...
A sequence of keys? Rofl.... well yes, fair enough, but then being a musical virtuoso is after all nothing more than a few finger movements...
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old.Enigma
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- #98
LOL Shark You can teach a three year old to play three blind mice
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- Pathfinder -
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- #99
Give it up for the troll 
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Danya
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- #100
Ok that's a fair comment, stealth skill based is fine, it's just the current all or nothing implementation is junk.
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Flimgoblin
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- #101
They realised that range and invisibility was too good... so they decided to remove it partially.
now you can have lots of ranged damage, or you can have decent stealth.
not both within 10m.
I imagine the same applies to the cool minstrel abilities combined with speed... you can pick your fights which is a powerful thing.
removing the stealth means you can't ...
oh well you get a respec soon so you can get back those useless points (unless you want to move at a reasonable speed whilst invisible to all but 2 classes)
now you can have lots of ranged damage, or you can have decent stealth.
not both within 10m.
I imagine the same applies to the cool minstrel abilities combined with speed... you can pick your fights which is a powerful thing.
removing the stealth means you can't ...
oh well you get a respec soon so you can get back those useless points (unless you want to move at a reasonable speed whilst invisible to all but 2 classes)
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Danya
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- #102
Minstrels never move at a reasonable speed while stealthed.
See Hidden isn't a bad thing per se, it's the way the level 5 assassin with leeched RPs can spot you at clip that is lame.
"now you can have lots of ranged damage, or you can have decent stealth"
Or you can be minstrel and get neither. So soon we're basically a skald with charm and much less damage, joy!
See Hidden isn't a bad thing per se, it's the way the level 5 assassin with leeched RPs can spot you at clip that is lame.
"now you can have lots of ranged damage, or you can have decent stealth"
Or you can be minstrel and get neither. So soon we're basically a skald with charm and much less damage, joy!
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old.LandShark
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- #103
OK, lots of answers coming up here...
First: Fingoniel... don't expect that kind of crap from you, i respected you fs =p The bullshit people give you about joining a group, playing powersong and going AFK; is just that, bullshit. I have done that ONCE in 48 levels, in a tree group where there was a sorc and i had a splitting headache. I warned the group and said i was happy to not join if it would be a problem, but they were desperate. Minstrels who make a habit of being pure power batteries tend to get bad reputations very fast in my experience.
Also, Dannyn never said playing a tank was easy; god knows I've played with enough incompetent mezz-breaking retard tanks to appreciate the clever ones when i'm privileged to group with them.
Second: Enigma: three blind mice? Wtf ARE you on? I say it's harder to play an assassin than a tank, which it is; you say it's all just keypresses; then it's three blind mice? I've lost you, mate... stop trying to be funny and start trying to actually explain your point.
Thirdly: Minstrels cannot and never have been able to gank people half as easily as archers. Fact the first; we have low specpoints, and cannot get good stealth as well as good melee, not without gimping our class-defining instruments spec. Fact the second; a minstrel CANNOT kill without putting himself in melee range. An archer can attempt to kill someone entirely at a distance and at least have the option of running if it turns bad.
Assassins of course have this problem just as much (even one-shots cause destealth in 1.50) but at least they can PA for huge damage. I've never seen a PA that didn't outdamage both my DD's combined, for the record, though people tend to ignore the fact that my 44spec DD (with the acuity stat capped out) does less damage than an enchanter pet's nuke, usually it does about half in fact.
Next-ly: Fingoniel.... seriously now, invisibility? Alright, we can be invisible to anyone further than a horselength away, but only if we spec for 50stealth (with items). Going for 39 or 37 or whatever base stealth and relying on +11 from items isn't THAT big a deal, but consider a) we have 1.5x spec points, compared to archer's 2x and assassins 2.2-2.5x... and b) there is one single piece of chain in the game with +stealth. And one single slash weapon with +stealth, now we have DF. This includes our epic items btw.
Dannyn's comment "or you can be a minstrel and get neither" is utterly correct. We don't HAVE ranged damage; we have 750range shouts, yes, that burn power like nobody's business, never do more than 150 to even-cons even with capped charisma, and are castable once for every 5 bow shots from a ranger or hunter.
Skald with charm and much less damage- i think we're on the same melee dmg table as skalds, technically, but they have the damage add, the ability to use 1 or 2H weapons within the same specline, and the ability to be a troll. being hit with a 2h hammer and 35qui is a considerable bit of frontloaded damage, in my experience.... optical hits me for 200-300 and i'm wearing 20% crush resist most of the time. (anecdotal evidence proves nothing, i know, but i can't honestly remember last time i hit a yellow or blue for over 150)
Charm.... yeah. Alright, charm is a potentially powerful tool but we have to twist to do anything at all other than melee, if we charm. With level 35 drums and a pet that whacks you every microsecond it's uncharmed, the legendary orange pet of the minstrel is little more than a very good way to get expdeaths in the middle of emain. It's usable, but is it really reasonable to HAVE to exploit a bug (twisting) in order to make an ability viable?
Again on the subject of see hidden- no 8-point RA should negate a lvl50 specline of 4 classes 100% of the time, regardless of the RA holder's level. That's just BS. I look forward to the whinges that will result of predator-less assassins raping you "nerf minstrels/archers!" whiners day in day out in emain.
RA's in general in fact are a load of crap imho; some really badly thought out ones are accidentally nerfing classes or boosting others, as the current state of play in the US makes fairly obvious. And I have access to 2 people's accounts on the US servers; i'm not just reading the VNboards and saying that
edit: ta if you read all that, if you didn't then please don't comment on it ;0
First: Fingoniel... don't expect that kind of crap from you, i respected you fs =p The bullshit people give you about joining a group, playing powersong and going AFK; is just that, bullshit. I have done that ONCE in 48 levels, in a tree group where there was a sorc and i had a splitting headache. I warned the group and said i was happy to not join if it would be a problem, but they were desperate. Minstrels who make a habit of being pure power batteries tend to get bad reputations very fast in my experience.
Also, Dannyn never said playing a tank was easy; god knows I've played with enough incompetent mezz-breaking retard tanks to appreciate the clever ones when i'm privileged to group with them.
Second: Enigma: three blind mice? Wtf ARE you on? I say it's harder to play an assassin than a tank, which it is; you say it's all just keypresses; then it's three blind mice? I've lost you, mate... stop trying to be funny and start trying to actually explain your point.
Thirdly: Minstrels cannot and never have been able to gank people half as easily as archers. Fact the first; we have low specpoints, and cannot get good stealth as well as good melee, not without gimping our class-defining instruments spec. Fact the second; a minstrel CANNOT kill without putting himself in melee range. An archer can attempt to kill someone entirely at a distance and at least have the option of running if it turns bad.
Assassins of course have this problem just as much (even one-shots cause destealth in 1.50) but at least they can PA for huge damage. I've never seen a PA that didn't outdamage both my DD's combined, for the record, though people tend to ignore the fact that my 44spec DD (with the acuity stat capped out) does less damage than an enchanter pet's nuke, usually it does about half in fact.
Next-ly: Fingoniel.... seriously now, invisibility? Alright, we can be invisible to anyone further than a horselength away, but only if we spec for 50stealth (with items). Going for 39 or 37 or whatever base stealth and relying on +11 from items isn't THAT big a deal, but consider a) we have 1.5x spec points, compared to archer's 2x and assassins 2.2-2.5x... and b) there is one single piece of chain in the game with +stealth. And one single slash weapon with +stealth, now we have DF. This includes our epic items btw.
Dannyn's comment "or you can be a minstrel and get neither" is utterly correct. We don't HAVE ranged damage; we have 750range shouts, yes, that burn power like nobody's business, never do more than 150 to even-cons even with capped charisma, and are castable once for every 5 bow shots from a ranger or hunter.
Skald with charm and much less damage- i think we're on the same melee dmg table as skalds, technically, but they have the damage add, the ability to use 1 or 2H weapons within the same specline, and the ability to be a troll. being hit with a 2h hammer and 35qui is a considerable bit of frontloaded damage, in my experience.... optical hits me for 200-300 and i'm wearing 20% crush resist most of the time. (anecdotal evidence proves nothing, i know, but i can't honestly remember last time i hit a yellow or blue for over 150)
Charm.... yeah. Alright, charm is a potentially powerful tool but we have to twist to do anything at all other than melee, if we charm. With level 35 drums and a pet that whacks you every microsecond it's uncharmed, the legendary orange pet of the minstrel is little more than a very good way to get expdeaths in the middle of emain. It's usable, but is it really reasonable to HAVE to exploit a bug (twisting) in order to make an ability viable?
Again on the subject of see hidden- no 8-point RA should negate a lvl50 specline of 4 classes 100% of the time, regardless of the RA holder's level. That's just BS. I look forward to the whinges that will result of predator-less assassins raping you "nerf minstrels/archers!" whiners day in day out in emain.
RA's in general in fact are a load of crap imho; some really badly thought out ones are accidentally nerfing classes or boosting others, as the current state of play in the US makes fairly obvious. And I have access to 2 people's accounts on the US servers; i'm not just reading the VNboards and saying that
edit: ta if you read all that, if you didn't then please don't comment on it ;0
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Garris-
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- #104
I agree totally.. being an inf I have the ability to yell "stealthed hunters west" on a cg.. but usually I have to actually put myself at risk to do that, and take the chance that I've just given that hunter a slow moving leatherclad target who thinks you cant see him.
I'm sure-as-hell getting that realm ability, because I'll be nerfing my usefullness as an inf if I don't. Now I'll just be able to /stick on the cleric and be the all-seeing eye. Nice...
I'm sure-as-hell getting that realm ability, because I'll be nerfing my usefullness as an inf if I don't. Now I'll just be able to /stick on the cleric and be the all-seeing eye. Nice...
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Danya
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- #105
BTW twisting isn't a bug as mythic have said you can twist charm and speed/power etc. in their 1.48 patch notes on the new charm. It is an utter pain though and not really worth the effort, and it burns all your end.
150 melee on a yellow? I'm lucky to hit yellow chain wearers for 100 styled (and I'm thrust)... yet skalds can hit us for 200+ with their hammers... I don't think we're on the same damage table.
150 melee on a yellow? I'm lucky to hit yellow chain wearers for 100 styled (and I'm thrust)... yet skalds can hit us for 200+ with their hammers... I don't think we're on the same damage table.
P
- Pathfinder -
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- #106
Different tables. Skalds are Vikings (Fighters), you are Rogues. Go figure
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Flimgoblin
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- #107
Originally posted by Dannyn
BTW twisting isn't a bug as mythic have said you can twist charm and speed/power etc. in their 1.48 patch notes on the new charm. It is an utter pain though and not really worth the effort, and it burns all your end.
150 melee on a yellow? I'm lucky to hit yellow chain wearers for 100 styled (and I'm thrust)... yet skalds can hit us for 200+ with their hammers... I don't think we're on the same damage table.
Not sure they do that much more...
bearing in mind they'll be using a two handed SLOW weapon...
Anyone compare Warrior damage to Thane damage to Skald damage? (to zerk damage)
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Flimgoblin
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- #108
I didn't say you _had to_ or that it was a nice thing to do... I was just saying you can.
You won't make any friends, you'll cycle groups constantly etc. (and I hinted at that)
You'll probably make it to 40 before your reputation gets so big noone will have you in a group, mind
so mibbe the 'do that to 50' was a fib It's as stupid a statement as saying 'if yer a moron go play a tank'
Dannyn might not have said it, but it was implied.
Edit: Note that if yer a moron and a tank you'll get just as bad a reputation as a crap minstrel, however you'll have no fun in RvR and take five times as long to get to lvl 20 (no idea about 20-40)
You're invisible to me... I can't see you.... Minstrels get many many other things to make up for thier lack of wonderful stealth (incase you didn't notice most of that post was about archers and range being too powerful)
I think the best thing about minstrels (and the one that lets them pick their fights) is the runspeed... (which skalds also have)
I've never said minstrels are overpowered... they're damned good... but no better than a Skald (they have naff stealth in exchange for damage).
Mythic put in stealth on archers, they made a booboo... this is their way of removing it (with only causing half the archers to quit instead of them all). Not sure if they intended to nerf minstrels in the same breath, or if they forgot minstrels had stealth - but as you said it's not one of your better abilities...
And Assassins have predators - ice wizards (or any pbaoe).
Have to agree on that ... some (Ignore Pain) are so much better than the others (Trip, Grapple) it's just not funny.
RA's in general in fact are a load of crap imho; some really badly thought out ones are accidentally nerfing classes or boosting others, as the current state of play in the US makes fairly obvious. And I have access to 2 people's accounts on the US servers; i'm not just reading the VNboards and saying that
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old.LandShark
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- #109
Oh come now, what percentage of casters over all 3 realms are PBAErs? Midgard doesn't even have such a spell until, what, 1.51? Admittedly there's probably a highish proportion of mana chanters in hib and ice wizzies in Alb DO seem to be on the rise, but i really doubt many assassins would agree that PBAE is more than an occaisional nuisance... 
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Flimgoblin
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- #110
Heh, just had an amusing vision of ice wizards running around the countryside hunting for assassins...
not quite what I meant (though it reads as if I meant that, sorry) if you have a group with an ice wiz, they can let off some steam every so often to knock that stealther out of stealth.
Also archers etc get true sight once every thirty minutes... if that stealth/unstealth to see if any enemies are around thing still works then you know just when to use it.
They're not easy to find or kill... but if they fluff their critical attack (which I've heard takes a fair bit of planning, luck and skill to land) they'll be unstealthed and killed if you're in a group...
If you're wandering solo then you're assasin bait, I'll give you that... are they too powerful? I couldn't say. A gank squad of minstrel/scout/infiltrator combo will still have gut an enemy assassin crawling around solo.
(hrm three assassins versus that lot.. who would win? assuming neither team were being stupid... could it go either way? if so then that's cool)
Maybe scouts/minstrels need to learn the caster defences against assassins... don't run in a straight line, spin around when you're standing still... don't sit down unless you're facing a solid object etc. etc.
Basically Mythic has been stomping down on the people that can solo in RvR and survive against loads of opponents, still getting RvR. By all means a hunter group should do well (and from what I can see will do... Landshark, you should know more about this from experience - yay or nay?)
In theory assassins can still run around solo... but they're only going to be killing other people running around solo.
not quite what I meant
(though it reads as if I meant that, sorry) if you have a group with an ice wiz, they can let off some steam every so often to knock that stealther out of stealth.Also archers etc get true sight once every thirty minutes... if that stealth/unstealth to see if any enemies are around thing still works then you know just when to use it.
They're not easy to find or kill... but if they fluff their critical attack (which I've heard takes a fair bit of planning, luck and skill to land) they'll be unstealthed and killed if you're in a group...
If you're wandering solo then you're assasin bait, I'll give you that... are they too powerful? I couldn't say. A gank squad of minstrel/scout/infiltrator combo will still have gut an enemy assassin crawling around solo.
(hrm three assassins versus that lot.. who would win? assuming neither team were being stupid... could it go either way? if so then that's cool
)Maybe scouts/minstrels need to learn the caster defences against assassins... don't run in a straight line, spin around when you're standing still... don't sit down unless you're facing a solid object etc. etc.
Basically Mythic has been stomping down on the people that can solo in RvR and survive against loads of opponents, still getting RvR. By all means a hunter group should do well (and from what I can see will do... Landshark, you should know more about this from experience - yay or nay?)
In theory assassins can still run around solo... but they're only going to be killing other people running around solo.
I
ivan_tribbiani
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- #111
AE Mezz/Stun and general AE spells have my vote.. but not PBAoE prolly due to the fact that its rare to encounter such caster.
Nerf em Nerf em all
Nerf em Nerf em all
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Flimgoblin
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- #112
AE mezz is evil! It's sickening how much of an effect my lvl 20 sorc has on a battlefield in the BGs (compared to my lvl 23 wizard)
It's getting toned down in the next few patches...
my only beef left is that insta-cast aoe mezz is the same range as the normal 3/4 second ones, which seems wrong....
I'd rather see all those instas reduced to 1000 range
You should be able to get the jump on a group if you catch them close range in an ambush... but not just by tiptoeing into direct damage range and pressing a button.
It's getting toned down in the next few patches...
my only beef left is that insta-cast aoe mezz is the same range as the normal 3/4 second ones, which seems wrong....
I'd rather see all those instas reduced to 1000 range
You should be able to get the jump on a group if you catch them close range in an ambush... but not just by tiptoeing into direct damage range and pressing a button.
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Garris-
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- #113
I've been playing a stealther in various forms of RvR for a while now and there are two things I really hate:
1) fluffing up your crit strike..
this DOES happen. Any assassin will tell you how frustrating a moving target is. Plus sometimes the game has a tantrum and you miss anyway no matter where you're standing.
2) pbaoe'rs. We were raiding dun bolg yesterday afternoon, and we had a brilliant ice wizzie wandering around.. basically bouncing along quickcasting their pbaoe thingy. When they came to retrieve my corpse they pbaoe'd it beforehand etc. We need more of these people.
3) and here's the controversial one - matter cabalists. I've made a matter cabalist for this exact purpose.. because I can see from an assassins point of view how deadly they could be. Think about it..
Your stealther buddy tells you theres assassins around that tank.. you drop an AoE DoT and bingo, assassins appear, and start backing off. You pick one assassin, debuff his strength and dex with shouts, disease him so he cant be healed, and stick your pet on him. From an assassins point of view.. he is very, very, very dead.
If it works perfectly (which in my mind it should do quite regulary) you've got a couple of assassins and a tank running away because they are poisoned, and one inf who really is never going anywhere, seeing as pets will keep chasing you even if you are stealthed.
I can't wait to get my cabbie to level 24 so I can try this in the BGs.. and I agree with whoever said it before, I dont think that cabbies are that bad. I think they are potentially very powerful, people just arent sure how to use them properly yet.
1) fluffing up your crit strike..
this DOES happen. Any assassin will tell you how frustrating a moving target is. Plus sometimes the game has a tantrum and you miss anyway no matter where you're standing.
2) pbaoe'rs. We were raiding dun bolg yesterday afternoon, and we had a brilliant ice wizzie wandering around.. basically bouncing along quickcasting their pbaoe thingy. When they came to retrieve my corpse they pbaoe'd it beforehand etc. We need more of these people.
3) and here's the controversial one - matter cabalists. I've made a matter cabalist for this exact purpose.. because I can see from an assassins point of view how deadly they could be. Think about it..
Your stealther buddy tells you theres assassins around that tank.. you drop an AoE DoT and bingo, assassins appear, and start backing off. You pick one assassin, debuff his strength and dex with shouts, disease him so he cant be healed, and stick your pet on him. From an assassins point of view.. he is very, very, very dead.
If it works perfectly (which in my mind it should do quite regulary) you've got a couple of assassins and a tank running away because they are poisoned, and one inf who really is never going anywhere, seeing as pets will keep chasing you even if you are stealthed.
I can't wait to get my cabbie to level 24 so I can try this in the BGs.. and I agree with whoever said it before, I dont think that cabbies are that bad. I think they are potentially very powerful, people just arent sure how to use them properly yet.
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Danya
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- #114
Solo assassins aren't really the problem, I can normally solo an assassin or at least escape, due to having insta stun. The problem is you see a group of 50s a long way off and in the middle is a green assassin, who spots you and comes running over, you're utterly fucked now, thanks Mythic! As for minstrel stealth not being that good, it's good enough damnit! The picking fights thing is far more down to stealth than speed in my experience, speed is all very well, but a skald can keep pace with you...
So this leaves me forced to find a group, I don't have a problem with this per se, it's just that pickup groups in emain are pretty much crap and just get me killed through people running, so no stealth effectively means no RvR unless it's a guild raid.
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Flimgoblin
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- #115
Actually you're better off than the archers... if you get spotted by twinkboy and his 7 mates you can destealth, speed song and warp the hell out of dodge...
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Flimgoblin
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- #116
Welcome to DAoC
Best plan is to get some /friends that like doing RvR and get a group going regularly.
(heh they're /friends instead of friends... wonder if that'll catch on - online friends are /friends
although this may confuse some real-worlders who think you have lots of pals with knives that like to use em)
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old.LandShark
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- #117
Fing, sorry, but you seem to have said there "it's ok for minstrel stealth to be broken by lowbie twink assassins, because they have the option not to use it" ?!
I mean, fine, fair enough, a merc has the option of not speccing DW if he so desires, but...
Anyway, on the point of spinning/zigzagging etc to avoid assassins.... yes, sure, it works to a degree, but currently a minstrel or archer with 50stealth is no easier to spot than an assassin with 50 stealth (detect hidden, the assassins ability gained at 20ish stealth spec, doesn't work if the enemy has stealth spec at or above your level).
With see hidden, he has the whole of draw distance to set up his perf. alright, so the minstrel who's doing flight of the bumblebee instead of walking in a straight line *WILL* be harder to perf, but it's far from impossible. Not to mention that the assassin will still be invisible to the minstrel, in most cases; it doesn't nerf Acme-invisibility in general, it just nerfs the archers/minstrels.
Don't forget that perf->CD = guaranteed kill, and i know that i can't usually instastun a shadowzerker or nightshade before they land their CD. Critblades are no big deal since their weapons are so slow, it's usually fairly easy to stun n run before the creeping death lands. (6sec stun, chains off perf. artery)
Hmm, i appear to have rambled.
Fingoniel: yep, you're right there, especially with the one-shots-still-destealth 'nerf' in 1.50, assassins will be primarily targetting soloers. Unfortunately, minstrels never could kill anyone other than soloers (or admittedly one member out of a group, IF that group was stupid and let the minstrel mezz em all - 3sec cast time on our mezz FYI). I can't really deny that archers can attack a group and at least escape after killing one or 2, imho they can do this a hell of a lot easier than a minstrel and with a far greater chance of both making a kill and making their escape.
To cut a long rambling post short (before it gets any worse), it's my opinion that see hidden was intended as a nerf to the sniper archers. See hidden happened to rape the stealth minstrels too; battle minstrels still take it on the chin with anti-mezz RA, and the anti-stun resist (1.51) also works against our shout dmg...
Also, it's worth pointing out that S.H. isn't the only source of this problem - after see hidden comes in, in America a lot of scouts started speccing as 'longbowmen' - low stealth, high melee, basically group scouts. These guys are still in trouble tho, because they still miss/fumble like mad, critShot still doesn't penetrate BT and can be blocked/evaded, etc etc etc.
See hidden was just a terribly un-thought-out solution to the problem of overpowered snipers.
</ramblerant>
I mean, fine, fair enough, a merc has the option of not speccing DW if he so desires, but...
Anyway, on the point of spinning/zigzagging etc to avoid assassins.... yes, sure, it works to a degree, but currently a minstrel or archer with 50stealth is no easier to spot than an assassin with 50 stealth (detect hidden, the assassins ability gained at 20ish stealth spec, doesn't work if the enemy has stealth spec at or above your level).
With see hidden, he has the whole of draw distance to set up his perf. alright, so the minstrel who's doing flight of the bumblebee instead of walking in a straight line *WILL* be harder to perf, but it's far from impossible. Not to mention that the assassin will still be invisible to the minstrel, in most cases; it doesn't nerf Acme-invisibility in general, it just nerfs the archers/minstrels.
Don't forget that perf->CD = guaranteed kill, and i know that i can't usually instastun a shadowzerker or nightshade before they land their CD. Critblades are no big deal since their weapons are so slow, it's usually fairly easy to stun n run before the creeping death lands. (6sec stun, chains off perf. artery)
Hmm, i appear to have rambled.
Fingoniel: yep, you're right there, especially with the one-shots-still-destealth 'nerf' in 1.50, assassins will be primarily targetting soloers. Unfortunately, minstrels never could kill anyone other than soloers (or admittedly one member out of a group, IF that group was stupid and let the minstrel mezz em all - 3sec cast time on our mezz FYI). I can't really deny that archers can attack a group and at least escape after killing one or 2, imho they can do this a hell of a lot easier than a minstrel and with a far greater chance of both making a kill and making their escape.
To cut a long rambling post short (before it gets any worse
), it's my opinion that see hidden was intended as a nerf to the sniper archers. See hidden happened to rape the stealth minstrels too; battle minstrels still take it on the chin with anti-mezz RA, and the anti-stun resist (1.51) also works against our shout dmg... Also, it's worth pointing out that S.H. isn't the only source of this problem - after see hidden comes in, in America a lot of scouts started speccing as 'longbowmen' - low stealth, high melee, basically group scouts. These guys are still in trouble tho, because they still miss/fumble like mad, critShot still doesn't penetrate BT and can be blocked/evaded, etc etc etc.
See hidden was just a terribly un-thought-out solution to the problem of overpowered snipers.
</ramblerant>
O
old.Eynar_Vega
Guest
- Thread starter
- #118
Here are the responses:
- That aemezzer you are referring to happens to be midgard's main healing class as well, and the combination main mezzer and main healer is more of a disadvantage than an advantage.
- That tank is having lunch with the plate-wearing stealth caster atm.
- This one is simple: cuz instruments are gay.
- Uhm, don't clerics have insta-stun instead of insta-mezz?
- If your casters would spec equally in all available lines I bet they would have even more spells! ;-)
I've played all 3 realms, and I must say I only see a couple of problems regarding the class balance. The main issue imo tho, is Midgard's lack of CC. This is due to 2 reasons: the first one is that our main CC class is main healing class as well, and the 2nd reason is that the class Mythic assigned as being secondary CC (spiritmaster) is the least played class in the game. Chances of being grouped with a sm in Midgard are as good as non-existant...
F
Flimgoblin
Guest
- Thread starter
- #119
Originally posted by old.LandShark
Fing, sorry, but you seem to have said there "it's ok for minstrel stealth to be broken by lowbie twink assassins, because they have the option not to use it" ?!
Not quite... I was just saying you have an escape route if you do get spotted by mr lowbie-twink, scouts don't.
(incidentally I find it quite hard to see people in see-thru mode at range 1500 anyway.... there was a big hubbub about a screenshot going round... I was like 'erm what? where's the guy?' so it's only sharp eyed lowbie twink assassins
That said there is the 'pop' bug where when you're first seen you come into full view before going transparent... that gets fixed soon though.)Fair enough a minstrel would only take out a single enemy skilled player when they attacked... difference between them and most other classes is that you get to choose when you fight... and almost always get the advantage of surprise (which means you're very unlikely to lose against this other solo person... yes? no? what chances do enemy tanks have against you normally? casters? etc.? I'm curious
)If you come across a group of 3 people that you can't handle you can either stealth or speed away (former means they never actually see you... unless they have an assassin). My merc does that he's toast, as is my wizard... or even my sorceror (not quite so much... his caster-speed lets him escape sometimes).
I'm not sure if Mythic intended the nerf to stealth for minstrels... but they are trying to get just about everyone to go around in groups... (assassins can still go solo but they won't be able to kill anything other than other soloists...)
You may have to change your sig now though
(ex-soloist? groupist? I dunno)
O
ormorof
Guest
- Thread starter
- #120
has anyone ever counted the classes?
lets see....
Albion have 12
Hibernia have 11
Midgard have 10
so ofcours midgard specialities are gonna be more concentrated than albion,
take runemaster for example, it can bolt,dd, pbt, debuff and dmg add.
compared to wizzies, bolt, dd, dmg add and fire shield
the way i see it, all the realms can do the same things but they all do it in a different way
just realised i only read the first page
lets see....
Albion have 12
Hibernia have 11
Midgard have 10
so ofcours midgard specialities are gonna be more concentrated than albion,
take runemaster for example, it can bolt,dd, pbt, debuff and dmg add.
compared to wizzies, bolt, dd, dmg add and fire shield
the way i see it, all the realms can do the same things but they all do it in a different way
just realised i only read the first page