Mincer changes?

[Sneakers|Matri]

Stuff.

Hmm, you bother to quote what I said but not to read it?

I said rangers can kill any class that has a low defence.[Obviously a correctly specced melee ranger]
Valks and heavy tanks do not have a low defence. Not sure what to write here since it seems you somewhere in the line of reading, comprehending and posting had a meltdown.


And to kill this discussion of rangers having low defence I will take my ranger as an exampel.

WH, SoM, 755 AF, 2380 hits ( on a lurikeen ), Battler, Malice charges, PD, AoM, CL5 weapon passive resists, ip2, FA2+FZ, health pots, Omni procs, ML10 HoT vest.

This together with the class natural "high" offence results in a class with high defence mixed with relativly high offensive power wich makes it very hard for chars who got high offence but lacks defence to kill a ranger due to the fact they outlast it.
Valks and heavy tanks obviously DO NOT fall in that directory wich makes both your and the guy you quoted remarks, basically flawed and borderline nuts.

This is like talking to 6 yos about God/heaven/religion, you do not understand shit b/c you got no clue.


I'm open for serious discussions but don't drag in these types of ludacris arguments to the table. I played both NS, ranger and minstrel so I'm not here to root for minstrels to get OP, but to discuss their state.

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

/edit, To make it clear to all the drunkposters currently posting. What I mean or how my defenition of "low defence" classes, is a casters, a hybrid+tank who opted for offence and neglected their defence with the idea to 8v8, where healers are their "defence".

 

[Illtar]

Man your just pure comedy.

1st you talk about valks, wich I never mentioned, then you toss in heavy tanks, wich I again never mentioned. Wanna discuss how rangers fare vs UFOs next? Or maybe rangers VS global heating?

Seems you got no clue of what I'm talking about thus' I'm not gonna waste my or your time by explaining; if you think rangers only defence is evade III then fine, lets leave it at that.

Try reading whats actually in the thread?

Nevermind i will break it down to you:

1) We both agree Minstrels suck
2) You state to someone else that a ranger will mow down a minstrel, i agree
3) I comment the funny fact that the only reason a Ranger beats a minstrel is the sad sad situation of minstrels, becuase in fact rangers are also pretty weak.
4) You say a ranger can opt for high DPS and high defense at the same time, yet rangers have no means of altering their defense in any meaningfull way.
5) you suddenly start screaming random insults, when i point of the fact that rangers die horribly to strong defensive tanks

Rangers ONLY have evade 3, they are a low defense class, whats not to understand?

Defense =! Damage mitegation (which incidently minstrels have a good load of aswell)

 

[Illtar]

/edit, To make it clear to all the drunkposters currently posting. What I mean or how my defenition of "low defence" classes, is a casters, a hybrid+tank who opted for offence and neglected their defence with the idea to 8v8, where healers are their "defence".

I guess praying on people that arent made to fight 1vs1 is fun.

Still the requirement low defense limits you to:

Minstrels
Skalds
Hunters
Rangers
Casters (and not really many solo)

problem for the above 4 classes in generel is, specable defense is just really strong..

Some one blocking/parrying 50-75% of your blows or more is just a damn hard fight..

Whether playing minstrel, skald or ranger the key issue is: Trying to kill something like a Valkyrie or an Armsman, is about as productive as hammering your head against the wall.

Becuase

A) half of you attacks wont hit them
B) they hit harder than you
C) they can take more hits than you

 

[toxii]

Haha, at the clueless posts tbh.

And Euinar how many of those rps is not PLed in a FL grp/alliance group tbh? Be honest about it.

My point is Euinar, that you as a minstrel was opted for groups, item and spec wise wich means I know you got the larger part of your rps from 8 mans in Toxii group, "easymode" patches era. Wich in turn means your knowlage about solo 1v1, minstrel stealth game is limited, as my 8v8 with minstrel is small in comparsion to you, hence I'm not comenting on that.

you sir, are clueless

euinar joined fl gg 3 times in a whole year, whole reason for it was him being uneasy with playing minstrel in group and not us whining about it, bcos we usually missed friar or tank when he played with us mainly

also, euinar joined guild at 9l8 or so

 

[TheBinarySurfer]

Defense =! Damage mitegation (which incidently minstrels have a good load of aswell)

While staying out of the personal flames ongoing here, the above is bollocks. Minstrels (in 8v8 and 1v1) have pathetic defense that isnt timered. Lets break it down so you can see just how wrong that statement is:
1) Alblative - will negate about every third swing from a hasted dual wielder on ONE hand at best. Only thing it upsets slightly is 2h / low quick tanks.
2) WH/SoM/WG etc are all timered defenses. All a good assassin needs to do in 1v1 is Vanish away (and if they popped WH/SoM they cant SL you remember) and come back and reapply poison/stun in 1 min's time when the minstrel's Purge/RA's are down. Turn this statement on its head for 8v8 and even with phase shift and zephyr (and really, how many minstrels bother with SoJ line nowadays? Not many is the answer.) ALL our 8v8 survivability is timered and to be quite frank, not up to the task of soaking caster / assist train level dps.
3) Evade / Chain - laughable with poisons / stun / abs debuff / debuff nuking depending on whether its 8v8 or Solo.

I could go on but i'd hope youre getting the picture.

 

[Illtar]

While staying out of the personal flames ongoing here, the above is bollocks. Minstrels (in 8v8 and 1v1) have pathetic defense that isnt timered. Lets break it down so you can see just how wrong that statement is:
1) Alblative - will negate about every third swing from a hasted dual wielder on ONE hand at best. Only thing it upsets slightly is 2h / low quick tanks.
2) WH/SoM/WG etc are all timered defenses. All a good assassin needs to do in 1v1 is Vanish away (and if they popped WH/SoM they cant SL you remember) and come back and reapply poison/stun in 1 min's time when the minstrel's Purge/RA's are down. Turn this statement on its head for 8v8 and even with phase shift and zephyr (and really, how many minstrels bother with SoJ line nowadays? Not many is the answer.) ALL our 8v8 survivability is timered and to be quite frank, not up to the task of soaking caster / assist train level dps.
3) Evade / Chain - laughable with poisons / stun / abs debuff / debuff nuking depending on whether its 8v8 or Solo.

I could go on but i'd hope youre getting the picture.

My point was exactly, minstrels have quite a few tools for damage mitegation (timered aye, buts thats reall ythe thing with those abilities in generel), however that is nowhere nearly as effective as having actual defense.

Please note i agree that minstrels are lacking badly

ahh i think the confusion is from:

= (equal to)
=! (not equal to)

 

[Gamah]

I think its great that this post has stirred so many replys..however the flames have let it down. Please stop.

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

you sir, are clueless

euinar joined fl gg 3 times in a whole year, whole reason for it was him being uneasy with playing minstrel in group and not us whining about it, bcos we usually missed friar or tank when he played with us mainly

also, euinar joined guild at 9l8 or so

Yah, you would know that better then me for sure.

Still fact remains, I know Euinar didn't get to rr11 from solo rvr. He knows it to.

 

[Kahvi]

Yah, you would know that better then me for sure.

Still fact remains, I know Euinar didn't get to rr11 from solo rvr. He knows it to.

i never said i have either, but ive done my solo part to.

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

5) you suddenly start screaming random insults, when i point of the fact that rangers die horribly to strong defensive tanks

Bro, how is it exactely an insult calling you clueless and trolling when you deliberatly put words in my mouth, and toss in new variables never mentioned in any of the arguments presented in this thread. I call it just a statement of fact.

Heavy tanks and valks was introduced by you in this thread to try and change the discussion, you state something like:

-"Rangers can't kill valks and heavy tanks" What does THIS has to do with ANYTHING said in the thread? Correct, nothing.

Saying that rangers flatten minstrels is a true statement, it was to show that minstrels suffer (imo ) from imbalance issues vs all the stealth classes, except maybe VS hunters.
You only dragged in heavy tanks in the discussion so you could proclaim yourslef to be "right" on one point, and an irrelevant point wich you yourself introduced to the thread/topic. Thats just wierd. And frankly, well I got no words, I just don't see the relevance.

Please go back and read what you said, and your comments to my posts and you will see how silly that comment(s) was.

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

i never said i have either, but ive done my solo part to.

Yah, but as I interpereted it, you made yourself out to have soloed yourself to rr11 and therefore when you say "minstrels r fine" they are. Inderectly putting watering ignorance and basied opinions held by some people in this thread.

I appologize if I came out as hostile and blunt, but I got annoyed at the, imo, really baised and rambling posts made by a few.

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

I guess praying on people that arent made to fight 1vs1 is fun.

Still the requirement low defense limits you to:

Minstrels
Skalds
Hunters
Rangers
Casters (and not really many solo)

problem for the above 4 classes in generel is, specable defense is just really strong..

Some one blocking/parrying 50-75% of your blows or more is just a damn hard fight..

Whether playing minstrel, skald or ranger the key issue is: Trying to kill something like a Valkyrie or an Armsman, is about as productive as hammering your head against the wall.

Becuase

A) half of you attacks wont hit them
B) they hit harder than you
C) they can take more hits than you

Okey, I'm gonna try and be as clear as I can.

Rangers as a base class without any armoring or skills trained got a poor defence. The only got evade III; wich is 15% evade wich is cut in hald by DW.

Rangers got access to, malice, battler, SoM, WH, PS, FZ+FA2, IP2, PD, AOM, EM, ML10 Heal over Time vest, passive CL resist increases.
A ranger is a solo class hence they will OPT to be powerful in solo attacking players that are by design weak to them and by choice ( 8v8 classes ) are weak to what rangers ( melee rangers ) excell at, wich is the mix of high defence with a "relative" powerful offence.

Weak classes then, in a varying degree depending on RR would be:

Skalds
other stealthers
casters in a certain degree
hybrid tanks that opted for 8v8
light tanks that opted for 8v8

*Ofc this isn't written in stone, since say a 2h slash pala opted 100% for 1v1 will not kill an equal rr/item wize ranger due to his spec and choice of course wich is high medium offence and low passive defence.

Rangers are weak vs classes that have a very high offence and at the same time a medium or high defence.
A minstrel got high timered ( not passive ) defence wich rangers can counter to 90% and piss poor under all critisism shit wank offence.

This was the logic behind my statement that a ranger will over a course of many fights have a mayority of the wins. This to show that minstrel are really in need of attention, not much but they need attention.

Then you, yes YOU, dragged valks and heavy tanks into the discussion since you had nothing else to say. I got no clue to why you chosed to make such an irrelevant remark, but you did and that is what we are bickering over here, I guess. :touch:

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

Alright, I done my share of flaming and bickering, and as the thread got alot of views and posts, I'll try to stair it back on course.


Why / Why not would:


Giving minstrels the option to spec in shield and giving them more spec points be a bad solution?

My ideal spec would be something like:

39 slash/thrust, 43 instruments, 42 shield 50 effective stealth ( could be discussed ). - Solo spec

or

39 slash/thrust, 50 ins, 42 shield and 18 stealth ( climb walls ). - Group spec

Have in mind that these changes would come on US where battler + malice is heavily nerfed.

 

[Illtar]

Okey, I'm gonna try and be as clear as I can.

Rangers as a base class without any armoring or skills trained got a poor defence. The only got evade III; wich is 15% evade wich is cut in hald by DW.:

So you agree they have crap defense then? Defense as in parry/block/evade, the only logical way to define it, which i have stated again and again

Rangers got access to, malice, battler, SoM, WH, PS, FZ+FA2, IP2, PD, AOM, EM, ML10 Heal over Time vest, passive CL resist increases.
A ranger is a solo class hence they will OPT to be powerful in solo attacking players that are by design weak to them and by choice ( 8v8 classes ) are weak to what rangers ( melee rangers ) excell at, wich is the mix of high defence with a "relative" powerful offence.
.:

indeed, damage mitagation.

Rangers are weak vs classes that have a very high offence and at the same time a medium or high defence.
A minstrel got high timered ( not passive ) defence wich rangers can counter to 90% and piss poor under all critisism shit wank offence.

This was the logic behind my statement that a ranger will over a course of many fights have a mayority of the wins. This to show that minstrel are really in need of attention, not much but they need attention.
.:

Agreed other than i think minstrel needs lots of attention, and rangers need some aswell.

Then you, yes YOU, dragged valks and heavy tanks into the discussion since you had nothing else to say. I got no clue to why you chosed to make such an irrelevant remark, but you did and that is what we are bickering over here, I guess. :touch:

I brought in Valks and Arms to illustrate clearly that if:

Rangers >> Minstrels
And
Armsmen and valks >>> Rangers

then it would often be that

Armsmens and valks >>>>>> Minstrels

in 1vs1.

I already said that in point 2, in one of the abbve posts. Besides i didnt put anything in your mouth. Only thing close to that was when i had typed something, and then afterwards edited it stating i missed a word the first time around

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

Fair enough Illtar, lets now brainstorm ways to improve the minstrel. If not to actually have an influence on Mythic (as if ~) then to vent some ideas/thoughts.

Personally in this current EU patch I think rangers are very balanced and very good. Only thing I would /ponder at is the bow spec, wich as I see it isn't that good.

In US patches Rangers seem to be pathetic, and I won't play mine if the patches reach EU without modification. That said I enjoy playing it atm, ten fold more then I enjoy playing my minstrel wich is just pure furstration.

 

[Graendel]

...you got the larger part of your rps from 8 mans in Toxii group, "easymode" patches era...

LOL

Thanks Toxii for rp-pling Euinar! When I ran with him three years in groups/duos/AC guild group our rp-bar always moved backwards?

 

[Vladamir]

LOL

Thanks Toxii for rp-pling Euinar! When I ran with him three years in groups/duos/AC guild group our rp-bar always moved backwards?

Well you are pretty shit in fairness

 

[Gamah]

Well you are pretty shit in fairness

;D!

 

[censi]

[the problem with the duel wield change (or the removal of defense pentration to black and evade) is that really having to invest 2 lines for your melee damage is now less attractive. Hunter DPS in melee with 1 spec line will be superior to rangers who spec 2 lines. On top of that hunter gets pet utility and DPS. scout gets the benfit of the defensive boosts.

Ranger then becomes on paper the least effective melee'er of all the archers. And the least effective in arrow pinging as scouts are arrow immune and hunters will have u interupted with pet giving you no option but melee.

Mincers are one of the classes that benefit the least from the defensive changes.

I would still still stand by the fact the mincer is a strong stealther with all sorts of tools not available to the other 2 realms. On the minus side is a PA punch bag and a slow killer at the best of times. They will always be a bugger to take down though if the guy is suited and booted properly.

With all the boosts to visual classes lately though it must be hard work to try and grind down visual melee classes on a mincer.

 

[Sneakers|Matri]

LOL

Thanks Toxii for rp-pling Euinar! When I ran with him three years in groups/duos/AC guild group our rp-bar always moved backwards?

The point to be made was that he didn't soloed the mayority/large part of his rps but grouped to get them. Who he grouped the most with is just details.

Toxii corrected me 2 pages ago. And I stood corrected.

 

[Jeros]

this thread is just lol

 

[toxii]

LOL

Thanks Toxii for rp-pling Euinar! When I ran with him three years in groups/duos/AC guild group our rp-bar always moved backwards?

you're welcome, now payback with rp-pling mentalist kthx