Mincer changes?

[Kami]

Yet many do, especially due to low population

It's not the way Mythic balance the game though, whether you like it or not.

Stun and mezz have different uses, besides the mezz have a longer duration, even in the worst case, barring it being resisted or otherwise outright negated (like any CC can be) Mezz allows the skald to get distance, even vs det4-5 tanks.
THe stun however lasts a whopping 1-2 sec vs someone with det and good resists.

A minstrel shouldn't be able to kill any of the det classes, sorry but look at the classes that have stoicism and det, only an assassin who gets PA off should have any chance against those classes. I don't think my snare/mez ever helped a lot against det/stoic classes, they can more or less brush off the mez and be on you with charge in seconds, which is why both skalds and minstrels should have SOS.

Assassin DPS is way higher than Skald DPS, your argument fails. However i dont think giving minstrels skald melee DPS is the right solution either though.
Skalds would gain a stun from shield spec (and defense) minstrel would only gain defense really, cant be hard to see shield would have a bigger impact on skalds..

Please explain how the my argument fails? I didn't mention assassins mate, I merely pointed out that your asking for a DPS increase on a class with stealth and an insane amount of utility, perhaps even too much utility.

Skalds would struggle to spec for the extra shield without more spec points, as it is they can't really spec for the last ablative - which most of them didn't want (they considered it a minstrel unique ability).

Actually minstrels are even worse lacking in a group than solo, the only thing they really still do ok, is grouping with other stealthers..

Skalds are just as bad, other than speed there's next to no reason to group a skald or a minstrel. The ablative counts for nothing as does the skalds DPS add, which is useless next to that of the shaman. A skald also can't twist shouts as well as they're on longer timers and use end with each twist (I can't remember if they use power too)

Minstrels are pretty much the worst class overall in the game, outside of the small niche of stealth groups.

They're certainly close to it but fixing them isn't going to be easy, upping the melee damage won't get you groups, there's better classes than a minstrel still. It all lies in group abilities but I seriously doubt Mythic will even think about it, just as I doubt we'll see Skalds or Minstrels getting extra spec points or shield spec. Sadly both classes have been left behind as the rest have been boosted.

 

[Serdan]

They're certainly close to it but fixing them isn't going to be easy, upping the melee damage won't get you groups, there's better classes than a minstrel still. It all lies in group abilities ....

Thats exactly the point. Any group would take sorc instead of minstrel anyday, in any setup, and that is wrong. While making a minstrel 100% must have would be a bit too much, I would like to see some options when inclusion of minstrel in ,say, tank groups would be needed.


Or you can just forget about all that elitist shit and just play ol' good game cluelessly without counting mitigation percents and fractions of health points. Now that would be fun. Sadly we need a time machine for this.

 

[mikke]

Why did this turn into a who-sucks-more?-skald-or-minstrel?-and-who-should-get-a-boost kind of thread?

I just wanted to know if there was any plans to give mincers (music classes) a boost

Its fun to read all the sudgestions though.

 

[Alekine]

mincer is op enough, they need change nothing tbh

 

[Ballard]

A minstrel can't kill any stealther thats on par with them gear and rr wise, it just don't happend.
A minstrel is chancless vs a ranger.
A minstrel can't kill a skald who is equal rr wise and gear wise untill rr10ish when the minstrel can speciaze after getting the "MUST have" shizzle.

- Minstrel should be able to beat most skalds. I know I have no problem beating 95% of skalds including ones significantly higher RR with close to perfect solo templates. You must be doing something wrong.
- Rangers? Rangers are one of the weaker classes against minstrels especially PD speced rangers. Slap on a legendary weapon and you should have no problems. If they neglect PD and go full passive damage RA's they can be very tough however.
- There are no 'must have' RA's (other than purge 1). Unless you decide to play a cookie cutter minstrel and rely on IP to prop you up. I dont use it and has worked fine 100% solo to rr6.
- The main class problem is good assasins especially if they have speced viper. You still have a shot at them however assuming you have a decent template.
- There are plenty of classes that are very weak to minstrel, but the other issue is the minstrel cannot choose which fights to fight due to substandard stealth. Once hunters / rangers realise they struggle against you they will choose not to fight leaving you to get jumped by assasins 24X7.
- A slight adjustment of the spec points up with no new speclines would be my preference to avoid the overpowering changes that mythic are known for. Some of the slash styles are worthless aswell.
- Sideslash should have its effect duration boosted by another 3-4 seconds and backslash should have some sort of effect added anything really. At the moment it is just a waste of endurance.

 

[Gamah]

So many clueless players that are playing daoc in 1.50? New class improvments have made the minstrel close to useless, barely winning a fight 1v1 every 15 minuetes is not a strong class.

DD's? LOL - Yes everyone running round with 36%+ body resists is absolutly fantastic for minstrels unbuffable main damage line.

Melee - After debuffs its a fucking joke to even try and hit someone with the remaining WS or the output is so shit it takes an hour to kill someone. Also who wants a speed bot in the group with the damage output of a dead fish.

Stealth - Oh please..do you actually play a fucking minstrel?

AE Mez - The hey look at me dance...short duration and 5 second cast time.

Demez? - heh.

And Kami..please get with the times, minstrels have not been wanted in groups since about 2 years ago..yeah lets all group woooo! Oh hang on we'll take another sorc over a minstrel who provides nothing another class can't do better.

Ballard?

Rangers - LW? With CL resists and LW nerfs..oh yes insta pwnage. Sitll I neverhad trouble with Rangers apart form the best ones, but with the inc archer love this will change.

Skalds - With body resist chant? warguard and now ablative and a higher dps than minstrels..no my friend we can't beat them 1v1.

Sideslash is fucking useless, who wants to try and land a side style to run away?

Minstrel's need a boost, those that think they don't do not play the game anymore or are still living 2 years ago in DAOC. Minstrel = Subclass Damage, Subclass Defence, Subclass Grouping..They are subclass.

But what do I know I just soloed my way to RR9L8 :/

Edit: BTW the person that said Minstrels have wanted DW for ages and not shield...try doing a search on any post made by me about the class and you will see that we have always wanted spec shield not DW.

 

[Ballard]

And Kami..please get with the times, minstrels have not been wanted in groups since about 2 years ago..yeah lets all group woooo! Oh hang on we'll take another sorc over a minstrel who provides nothing another class can't do better.

Ballard?

Rangers - LW? With CL resists and LW nerfs..oh yes insta pwnage. Sitll I neverhad trouble with Rangers apart form the best ones, but with the inc archer love this will change.

Skalds - With body resist chant? warguard and now ablative and a higher dps than minstrels..no my friend we can't beat them 1v1.

Sideslash is fucking useless, who wants to try and land a side style to run away?

Minstrel's need a boost, those that think they don't do not play the game anymore or are still living 2 years ago in DAOC. Minstrel = Subclass Damage, Subclass Defence, Subclass Grouping..They are subclass.

Few mistakes here.

- Skalds do not typically run body resists chant because it wipes cl resists and also the cl resists of everyone in the area (if they use ctr)

- I fight plenty of rr8+ skalds (solo speced). They are a tough fight for sure but are beatable as at the latest patch on US.

- LW's have actually got better. Last patch the accuracy recieved a 5% boost. or use sun sword. No its not 'insta pwnage' as you suggest I said but I never said that did I. I certainly cant understand how people cant beat rangers however as they certainly are beatable as at now.

- Sideslash aint flash for sure, but it is handy for preventing kiting and more importantly has less end use than ammy. Dont go out of the way to land it, but if the opportunity presents itself (after mezz or during stun) I do use it.

- Certainly some improvements are needed. But its not quite the crying game some people make out. i.e. people claiming we cant beat other assasins? give me a break. They must just be shit players. 100% solo I tend to manage about 6k irs that seems to suggest infact we can kill some classes.

 

[Azathrim]

Skalds - With body resist chant? warguard and now ablative and a higher dps than minstrels..no my friend we can't beat them 1v1.

And Minstrels doesn't have Warguard?
Perhaps if you used the class better. Forinstance by using stealth not to stay out of the fight until you could have a pet to improve your utility/damage?

Weren't it you in that vid fighting Xenja back in the days? A very close fight, that Xenja only won on behalf of being a better player.

Minstrel's need a boost, those that think they don't do not play the game anymore or are still living 2 years ago in DAOC. Minstrel = Subclass Damage, Subclass Defence, Subclass Grouping..They are subclass.

But what do I know I just soloed my way to RR9L8 :/

When it comes to 8v8 Minstrels may be subclass compared to some of the new and upgraded classes that have come out lately.
As for the stealther/solo game Minstrels are superior defense, high group utility and decent damage.
Remove the Minstrel from the stealth game and I might give you more credit for your oppinions. But until then, Albion stealth groups don't need a bost.

Edit: BTW the person that said Minstrels have wanted DW for ages and not shield...try doing a search on any post made by me about the class and you will see that we have always wanted spec shield not DW.

Contrary to your own belief, you are not the only one that have an oppinion of the class. Whetever you have whinged for shield spec or duel wield in the past is really irrelevant to my comment. My comment was directed at the mass of minstrel players on this and other forums that have cried for Duel Wield.

 

[Gamah]

Contrary to your own belief, you are not the only one that have an oppinion of the class. Whetever you have whinged for shield spec or duel wield in the past is really irrelevant to my comment. My comment was directed at the mass of minstrel players on this and other forums that have cried for Duel Wield.

Ofc, I mean read my post and the replies?

 

[Belgerath]

2bh only 1 music class really needs love and thats the Bard

 

[mikke]

I agree to what most of you guys are saying.. But minstrels does need a boost in some way. I does not mean it should be a must in a group, like someone alreaddy said, but it would be nice if they actiually had something to contribute with in a 8v8 group.

Just look at the sorc, (i wont try to compare the sorc to a mincer here) its in solo action, duo action, small groups, and it is a must in full groups! Then we look at the mincer; It is wery hard to solo, and is totally dependant on the timers, it is a good duo class because of some of its abillities, and it is totally redundant in fg action.. Most of the other classes of albion can solo very well, and is good in small groups, and bigger groups. But mincers is only wanted in some small groups, which is really sad.

It seems like most of the guys that still says that mincers are over powered hasnt noticed that the game has evolved, and most classes has gotten a boost exept minstrels. And that is why mincers whine. Mincers are a class that has been forgotten and has not evolved the last years.

 

[mikke]

2bh only 1 music class really needs love and thats the Bard

Bard cant be compared to a mincer imo. Bard is hibernias main CC'er, and is very important to the group. A 8v8 oriented hib group cant head out in the frontiers whitout a bard or two.

 

[Ballard]

Yes I think we can all agree minstrel needs some sort of boost. But it is very difficult to specify what that should be because there are many different ways to play minstrels (or at least there should be). Given minstrels are the speed class they should be groupable but they arent due to very limited abilities. Given minstrels have stealth they should be able to stealth properly and solo but they cant due to sub par stealth and insufficent spec points to maintain WS. The problem is if you adjust one you also implicitly effect the other. If you give minstrel shield how does that help group minstrels? Likewise any proposed improvements to groupability have to have there affect on a stealth minstrel weighed up.

I just think the cause isnt helped by people who say minstrel is useless at the moment becuase it really isnt (just subpar). And trying to claim it is useless while asking for more abilities really weakens the argument.

 

[Azathrim]

Very much agreed Ballard. Hence Mythic should get into it and take the consequenses: Remove stealth and balance the class towards 8v8/Full scale.

Alternatively tone its group utility/cc down and let it keep stealth.

 

[Phantomby]

we all know that Mythic are too scared to remove any abilities from any class which is why they keep dumping more and more tools onto each class.

Mincer changes...

Change their aoe mezz from 5 seconds to 3 seconds cast time (its already affected by dex i believe) so they have a chance in the mezz war if they spec / temp for it. <im still a little worried about the power this effect this may have if cast from stealth but would aid in groupability>

give them an end chant? maybe it would push the paly's nose out but then you consider if you want a lower AF, mezz and stun end regen char or a high AF plate wearing tank with shield...provides options at least? Bard has end regen so why not? wouldnt affect solo scene too much as mincer would either be fighting (not playing end gen song) or may twist it with speed to escape but then wouldnt be able to carry a pet.

hmm its difficult to think of abilities to give them that would aid them but not break the balance of everything around them.


Maoixz - 50 Sorc Gareth <Ebony Hand>

 

[Ctuchik]

Aoe mezz - useless
Demezz - lol
Aoe amnezia - Er were did you get that thats BARDS not minstrels
2x dd - Our only real source of dmg and the same dmg and timer as a skalds
1x stun - purge anyone? not to mention its duration is reduced by resists
Speed - Skalds get that and with the caster speed love.....
Health - ? Mincer HP SUCKS to high heaven
Regen - what? how is that any real use in combat? (oh and skalds is better)
Abla - Skalds also get and we really need that to survive

On a one on one fight and when it comes to killing things in general Skald does more damage, has more hp, more defence and will stand a better chance to win, tho i did manage to kill one or two on a free shard

A mincers only real redemming points is the shitty stealth and the pet

so what DO minstrels "need" then? the only thing i can think of is parry and *maybe* access to 2 handers. anything other then that would make minstrels go back to the FOTM god mode it used to be back in the early days.

and then there is the stealth issue. how do you balance minstrels against all the other melee stealthers so they wont take over as the prefered assassin?

there isnt *that* much they can acually do to make minstrels better in damage or survivability without making the rest of the assassin community start a whine fest and getting it nerfed again.

 

[Gamah]

Spec shield..as said many times.

 

[Vladamir]

2bh only 1 music class really needs love and thats the Bard

Tbh i think bard is one of the most balanced classes in daoc, they've not altered much about the class have they really?

 

[Garok]

Tbh i think bard is one of the most balanced classes in daoc, they've not altered much about the class have they really?

Only primary CC class with only 1 form of CC (Mezz) so could really do with another form of back up CC (snare or root)

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Only primary CC class with only 1 form of CC (Mezz) so could really do with another form of back up CC (snare or root)

As they always run round with chanters, they have got backup, normally this is mezz, stun - nuke - nuke - nuke - release.

As a support class bards have a lot more util than just CC, so no they dont need a boost.

Now back to your regular scheduled program about minis - qq on peeps.

 

[whinersmincer]

Tbh i think bard is one of the most balanced classes in daoc, they've not altered much about the class have they really?

bard is one off the most op clases in the game thx

 

[whinersmincer]

and yes mincers need some love because if another stealther pops on u with PA or backstab. u are doomed if u dont have ip2 and battler up and purge. because the dam is so low on mincers

 

[Garok]

As they always run round with chanters, they have got backup, normally this is mezz, stun - nuke - nuke - nuke - release.

As a support class bards have a lot more util than just CC, so no they dont need a boost.

Now back to your regular scheduled program about minis - qq on peeps.

Compaire the tools they have with Sorc and Pac Healer and they don't tbh

 

[old.Whoodoo]

Compaire the tools they have with Sorc and Pac Healer and they don't tbh

PAC healer...lets see, stun, mezz...oh and run away. PACers cant kill anything, they cant spec weapons, have no damage spells and no speed, so wheres the comparison?

Sorcs are casters, not support classes, learn the difference.

Now, back to "Sympathy for Minis - the mini series", sorry for the hyjack.

 

[old.Whoodoo]

and yes mincers need some love because if another stealther pops on u with PA or backstab. u are doomed if u dont have ip2 and battler up and purge. because the dam is so low on mincers

Isnt that the same for all hybrid class, a skald / thane / bard / reaver / hunter etc etc etc would suffer the same.

 

[Neffneff]

Isnt that the same for all hybrid class, a skald / thane / bard / reaver / hunter etc etc etc would suffer the same.

maybe, but a mincer is jsut about the EASIEST char to find and PA with their lacking stealth. yeai can see a visible better, but they are moving faster, and are tougher, but a min, i can see that from miles away, follow without being seen, and the moment the way is clear of all visibles, i can almost 100% land a perfect PA.

 

[whinersmincer]

Isnt that the same for all hybrid class, a skald / thane / bard / reaver / hunter etc etc etc would suffer the same.

and skald = higer dam and insta mezz reaver = shield thane = shield and bard = comone and hunter got wery good stealth the have a chance to see other stealthers

 

[mikke]

bard = comone

What does comone mean? as in come on?

bard is needed in all groups if the group want to have a chance of killing another group. mincer is one of the last classes thats wanted in a serious group!

 

[Sneakers|Matriarch]

Few mistakes here.

- Skalds do not typically run body resists chant because it wipes cl resists and also the cl resists of everyone in the area (if they use ctr)

- I fight plenty of rr8+ skalds (solo speced). They are a tough fight for sure but are beatable as at the latest patch on US.

- LW's have actually got better. Last patch the accuracy recieved a 5% boost. or use sun sword. No its not 'insta pwnage' as you suggest I said but I never said that did I. I certainly cant understand how people cant beat rangers however as they certainly are beatable as at now.

- Sideslash aint flash for sure, but it is handy for preventing kiting and more importantly has less end use than ammy. Dont go out of the way to land it, but if the opportunity presents itself (after mezz or during stun) I do use it.

- Certainly some improvements are needed. But its not quite the crying game some people make out. i.e. people claiming we cant beat other assasins? give me a break. They must just be shit players. 100% solo I tend to manage about 6k irs that seems to suggest infact we can kill some classes.

Mikos, I played VS you alot on Lamorak, I played with you and seen you play in HIB in RR, your skilled. But what your suggesting here is complete nonsense. Me and Gamah and anyone else for that matter ain't talking about subpar rr3 skalds in epic armor. I compare myself to the best, that is Zoia, the swedish dorf skald ( forgot name ), and a few others.

I can tell you right now that my minstrel before it all went to hell for minstrels with DR patches was damn hard, not many could kill me; and the ones who could where up there top 3 in their class.
I mean, how can you claim that you can kill a skald that is equally skilled, geared and RRs, where all that matters is the class balance and the classes "base" value/fighting capacity.

I can tell you right now, my minstrel walked around with 2403 hits, 842 af, WH, BoTS, CB, SoM, malice/LW/sun blade 1h and battler on back, Sidi heal proc bp, all crafted parts with 80 value heal procs, ml10 warlord, CL5 mainhandfree temp, caped melee resists, all magic resists 18-26% and I even had /use drops with heal charges since it takes fucking ages to kill anything as a minstrel. I was 800ish in Alch just so I could make regen end 3 pots, thats how much end I consumed. In though fights I had to use mcl, power pots and Harp /use to be able to even DD/stun etcetera.
I had cape charisma, yet my dds did fuck all dmg, i had 23 str cap, 228 QU... +11 stealth +11 slash and +4 ins. I honestly think that your minstrel doesn't even come close to that.

I guess I'm trying to make you understand with these nummbers that I tryed to take my mincer as far as it was possible, and yet I found it to be so worthless I went back to hib playing my nightshade and ranger. And yes rangers do rape minstrels, so do assassins ask any of the active minstrels that are around these days. Skalds do rape minstrels, I might have fougt Zoias skald 200 times and lost 75%-80% of those fights, it was uphill just from start, sure we fought for 5-6-7 mins at times but I would never win since you simple can NOT counter this;

DD+DD flute mezz lands. Recycle, DD+DD stunn, hit hit hit

Skald breaks stunn, hit hit parry stunned, hit hit, <10s later ur Stunn immunity is gone>... your exchanging hits, you got 1h he got 2h, both got dds. Simple math he will out damage you. When he is low on hits he will mezz + fa2, back up on 100% hits again. You stunn him trying to do the same, but oh your in combat and with a 4-5 s lasting stunn you won't be able to get our of combat and mezz \o> *GG*.
So now you battler him, he counter battlers *GG*. Now you have to warguard, meh he got WG also *QQ*.

Now your getting low on hits, both used their health pots+10% WL heal.

I know! SoS... you get distance, mouse look on, 180 degree turns in speed just to get the flute started but still running away, when the song is finished /face and instant mezz. JIPPIE, right?!

<xxx skald casts a spell> Yes, that is purge3 maejt.

Now you used battler, 10% WL heal, heal pot, ip2, WG, had SoM up, had WH up, you got kickass AF, so does he, you got 2400 hits, so does he, you got LWs and ofc, so does he.

This is how it goes down vs any good decent skald you will ever fight.

Only way you got a slight chance of killing the skald is with CB up blocking his 1st mezz atemp forcing him to IP2 early, and the purge3 the second attemp to mezz you for FA2 purpuse..this is YOUR only chance to turn it forcing him not to FA2 and totally outright own you.
This does however not change the fact the a skald will out damage you due to hammer after parry3 s stunn with 10s RUT.

Hileriously long post, but just find it silly to have people say minstrels are all fine and dandy when they are not. I see a minstrel on any of my toons today its free realmpoints, smite speced clerics are 10x harder.

 

[Sneakers|Matriarch]

and then there is the stealth issue. how do you balance minstrels against all the other melee stealthers so they wont take over as the prefered assassin?

Well, atm its like this, see a minstrel as a ranger/assassin and its free realm points.

Some week ago or w/e I found riderich, he is 11l5+ and My shade is like 7l8. I didn't even bother to PA, just walked up to him and started hitting. After the 1st evade I knew I would kill him in less then 10 seconds, it was pathetic, the class is in a terrible state.

I think giving minstrel 2.5 spec points. Shield spec would solve all problems.

Say your a stealth minstrel now you can go:
42 shield, 39 slash 18 stealth 43 ins.

Wich means, higher defence, what we need with our evade II... ( yes we got chain and can get up to 842 AF, but assassins abs debuff is ridicoulusly OP, trust me. )

39 slash means a little, and I mean a little boost in the melee output and WS, wich makes assassins hopfully not to evade 8/10 hits.

18 stealth, well hides us from full grps and casters, good enough. Not like you can hide from archers/assassins anyway, not even with 50 stealth.

43 instruments, well gives us red speed and red stun, due to not going higher we loose red abla, red dds...wich balances out fine imo, since you can't have the cookie and still eat it.

--------------------------


With this said, for a group minstrel you could just work around with the spec points and you will end up with something like this:

42 shield, 44 slash, 50 ins. This could make minstrels more usefull in groups. They don't get steamed in 8v8, have higher dmg output and still will have full advantage of instruments. Only problem I see here is that this spec could possibly be preferred even for solo minstrels due to the minstrels lacking ability to hide.

Well if I was in charge I'd play around with this idea to see if it could work in practice yet not destorying the little balance that is left in this game.


/edit, with this said, have in mind that these changes would come in US 1st, and that would been worthless malice and worthless battler, wich is like 50% of our defence atm.